Another Brady debate

[crawhammer]

Brady wanted weapons because he knew he didn't have it anymore. And by "it," I mean he wasn't playing at an elite level (top 5) in 2018 and 2019. Look at his last two years in NE compared to 2017 when he was the MVP.

2017 - 4577 yards, 32 TDs, 8 INTs, 102.8 rating (led the league in passing, 3rd in TDs)

2018 - 4355 yards, 29 TDs, 11 INTs, 97.7 rating (top 10)

2019 - 4057 yards, 24 TDs, 8 INTs, 88 rating (top 10)

You can see a gradual decline by the time 2019 rolled around. The super bowl in 2018 came because of the defense.

So Brady wanted weapons to boost his falling numbers, which he knew NE didn't have. Then he went to a team with Godwin and Evans as well as a top o-line and brought along Gronk, Brown, and Fournette. This led directly to his numbers going way up in 2020 and 2021. He NEEDS weapons at this point in his career to prop his numbers.

Did you notice a spike in Brady's numbers from 2006 to 2007? Because he went from Reche Caldwell, Doug Garbiel and a completely spent Troy Brown to Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth. When you're throwing to trash your numbers are going to decline. When you're an elite quarterback with a strong supporting cast then your numbers are going to be prolific. However, prolific numbers don't always result in winning... just look at the careers of Bret Favre, Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers... multiple league MVPs (12 combined) yet only 4 Super Bowl titles because they all lack the "it" factor which is clutchness in the biggest moments. That's ultimately what separates Brady from everyone else... converting 3 consecutive 3rd-10s in OT of the AFCCG... 4-4 for 67 yards on the game-winning drive in SB 53.

Brady wasn't declining in 2018 or 2019. In 2018 his top 2 WRs from the previous season were gone (Cooks and Amendola) and Edelman was suspended for a quarter of the season. In 2019 Gronk retired and the team didn't replenish the position and the WRs were a mess (Edelman and then a bunch of guys that didn't work out at all). Considering what he was working with, Brady was actually very good in 2018 and probably maxed out his numbers in 2019.

Every quarterback needs weapons at any point in their career... this is not a revelation. So Brady's numbers went way up in Tampa Bay... no sh*t... and I'll give you all of the reasons why (none of which are he miraculously stopped declining). But if you want to win multiple Super Bowls then you have to have a unique set of skills (including clutchness on a consistent basis which is exceptionally rare... as in we've only seen it once in the history of the league).

 

[sb1]

2019 - 4057 yards, 24 TDs, 8 INTs, 88 rating (top 10)

2020 with almost the exact same offense
2657 yards, 8 TD. 10 INT, 83 rating.

Something was different....

 

[Guts]

This weapons thing is ridiculous.

Every QB needs weapons to have "it".

2018 was the corpse of Gronk and Edelman as his primary targets

2019 we know what happened...

Look at all the top QBs from 18-21 and tell me which one doesn't have elite weapons?

The game requires at least 2 great weapons to win in today's game

Last Superbowl Champions

21- Kupp/OBJ
20- Evans/Godwin/Brown
19- Hill/Kelce
18- Gronk/Edelman
17- Jeffrey/Ertz
16- Edelman/Bennett
15- Thomas/Decker/Thomas
14- Gronk/Edelman

 

[SHOWTIME15]

This weapons thing is ridiculous.

Every QB needs weapons to have "it".

2018 was the corpse of Gronk and Edelman as his primary targets

2019 we know what happened...

Look at all the top QBs from 18-21 and tell me which one doesn't have elite weapons?

The game requires at least 2 great weapons to win in today's game

Last Superbowl Champions

21- Kupp/OBJ
20- Evans/Godwin/Brown
19- Hill/Kelce
18- Gronk/Edelman
17- Jeffrey/Ertz
16- Edelman/Bennett
15- Thomas/Decker/Thomas
14- Gronk/Edelman

Not really. Brady can't anymore with the kinds of receivers he had in NE. He just doesn't have it in him anymore. There's a reason why he's doing a lot of recruiting over the past couple years.

 

[crawhammer]

Not really. Brady can't anymore with the kinds of receivers he had in NE. He just doesn't have it in him anymore. There's a reason why he's doing a lot of recruiting over the past couple years.

He's recruiting players (like every other quarterback in the league) because he wants the best team around him as possible. Not because he thinks he sucks and he needs the help. He just doesn't have it in him anymore??? He won the Super Bowl in his first season with a new team. He should have won NFL MVP last season. Does Rodgers have it in him anymore (or ever)? How many times has that loser choked up a postseason now? Mahomes? Must have completely lost it in the AFCCG last season when he gagged ten times worse than Brady ever has in 20 seasons.

What the hell happened to Belichick against Buffalo last season (or really since Brady left)? Getting his doors blown off like there's no tomorrow. He doesn't have it in him anymore?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

He's recruiting players (like every other quarterback in the league) because he wants the best team around him as possible. Not because he thinks he sucks and he needs the help. He just doesn't have it in him anymore??? He won the Super Bowl in his first season with a new team. He should have won NFL MVP last season. Does Rodgers have it in him anymore (or ever)? How many times has that loser choked up a postseason now? Mahomes? Must have completely lost it in the AFCCG last season when he gagged ten times worse than Brady ever has in 20 seasons.

What the hell happened to Belichick against Buffalo last season (or really since Brady left)? Getting his doors blown off like there's no tomorrow. He doesn't have it in him anymore?

Nothing but a strawman argument. You don't address what I said, which is that Brady can't win anymore without weapons. The kind of receivers he had in NE from 2011-2019 (amendola, edelman, mitchell, hogan, etc) don't compare to Evans, Godwin, and Brown. As I proved above, he was above average in 2018 and 2019 statistically, then he has a great season in 2020 mainly because of the team around him got way better. He just can't turn scrubs into super bowls anymore. And he knows it too.

 

[crawhammer]

Nothing but a strawman argument. You don't address what I said, which is that Brady can't win anymore without weapons. The kind of receivers he had in NE from 2011-2019 (amendola, edelman, mitchell, hogan, etc) don't compare to Evans, Godwin, and Brown. As I proved above, he was above average in 2018 and 2019 statistically, then he has a great season in 2020 mainly because of the team around him got way better. He just can't turn scrubs into super bowls anymore. And he knows it too.

You're inside his head now?... lol! You're not saying anything meaningful. What quarterback in the history of the league won without weapons? Montana? Young? Bradshaw? Every quarterback in the history of the league needs weapons to be successful. You think Brady would have had the same career success if he was throwing to Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel for 20 seasons?

And Brady's been winning his entire career... he's won every other Super Bowl going back to 2014... so at what point in those 8 seasons exactly did he lose it? 2019? When Belichick thought having no TEs was a good idea and he threw a bunch of crap against the wall that didn't stick. That 2019 team had Brady's worst supporting cast since 2006 so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that his stats were down. Nor should it be any surprise that his stats went way up in 2007 and 2020 when he had much better players around him than the seasons before. He personally declined in 2019 as much as he had in 2006, which is not at all. Hasn't your stupid Max Kellerman argument been torn to shreds enough already?

 

[venecol]

You're inside his head now?... lol! You're not saying anything meaningful. What quarterback in the history of the league won without weapons? Montana? Young? Bradshaw? Every quarterback in the history of the league needs weapons to be successful. You think Brady would have had the same career success if he was throwing to Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel for 20 seasons?

And Brady's been winning his entire career... he's won every other Super Bowl going back to 2014... so at what point in those 8 seasons exactly did he lose it? 2019? When Belichick thought having no TEs was a good idea and he threw a bunch of crap against the wall that didn't stick. That 2019 team had Brady's worst supporting cast since 2006 so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that his stats were down. Nor should it be any surprise that his stats went way up in 2007 and 2020 when he had much better players around him than the seasons before. He personally declined in 2019 as much as he had in 2006, which is not at all. Hasn't your stupid Max Kellerman argument been torn to shreds enough already?

Let me ask you something. Do you enjoy arguing with that troll? Because honestly, the forum gets dumber every time he's involved.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I put the troll on ignore and these threads shrunk by a lot. Imagine a grown man entertaining himself with 5th grade level posts. He's pretty much alone but has the need to troll to get anyone to notice him.

 

[1960Pats]

This weapons thing is ridiculous.

Every QB needs weapons to have "it".

2018 was the corpse of Gronk and Edelman as his primary targets

2019 we know what happened...

Look at all the top QBs from 18-21 and tell me which one doesn't have elite weapons?

The game requires at least 2 great weapons to win in today's game

Last Superbowl Champions

21- Kupp/OBJ
20- Evans/Godwin/Brown
19- Hill/Kelce
18- Gronk/Edelman
17- Jeffrey/Ertz
16- Edelman/Bennett
15- Thomas/Decker/Thomas
14- Gronk/Edelman

It always was and always will be about the best players. No HC, even Bill, can win without better players.

 

[1960Pats]

You're inside his head now?... lol! You're not saying anything meaningful. What quarterback in the history of the league won without weapons? Montana? Young? Bradshaw? Every quarterback in the history of the league needs weapons to be successful. You think Brady would have had the same career success if he was throwing to Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel for 20 seasons?

And Brady's been winning his entire career... he's won every other Super Bowl going back to 2014... so at what point in those 8 seasons exactly did he lose it? 2019? When Belichick thought having no TEs was a good idea and he threw a bunch of crap against the wall that didn't stick. That 2019 team had Brady's worst supporting cast since 2006 so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that his stats were down. Nor should it be any surprise that his stats went way up in 2007 and 2020 when he had much better players around him than the seasons before. He personally declined in 2019 as much as he had in 2006, which is not at all. Hasn't your stupid Max Kellerman argument been torn to shreds enough already?

It's kind of amazing how the proof of Brady's greatness has been happening right in front of our eyes yet many don't see it. I can understand a clown like Kellerman, he's hoping to gain attention, but I'm surprised at fans here who don't see how truly special he was/is.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

You're inside his head now?... lol! You're not saying anything meaningful. What quarterback in the history of the league won without weapons? Montana? Young? Bradshaw? Every quarterback in the history of the league needs weapons to be successful. You think Brady would have had the same career success if he was throwing to Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel for 20 seasons?

And Brady's been winning his entire career... he's won every other Super Bowl going back to 2014... so at what point in those 8 seasons exactly did he lose it? 2019? When Belichick thought having no TEs was a good idea and he threw a bunch of crap against the wall that didn't stick. That 2019 team had Brady's worst supporting cast since 2006 so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that his stats were down. Nor should it be any surprise that his stats went way up in 2007 and 2020 when he had much better players around him than the seasons before. He personally declined in 2019 as much as he had in 2006, which is not at all. Hasn't your stupid Max Kellerman argument been torn to shreds enough already?

Um, the patriots won most of their super bowls without weapons. As a Brady fan, you should know that. Again, you are arguing he wasn't effective without weapons in 2018 and 2019, which proves my point. You give him weapons at his age and his stats will start to look good. You can't deny the difference between Brady of 2018-2019 and Brady of 2020-2021. Did you think that Alex Guerrero performed some sort of magic spell on him to make him better when he went to Tampa? No, the real reason he improved was because of the team around him got better.

Let me ask you something. Do you enjoy arguing with that troll? Because honestly, the forum gets dumber every time he's involved.

Should we revisit some of your political posts in the covid thread? LMAO

 

[sb1]

Um, the patriots won most of their super bowls without weapons.

Gronk wasn't a weapon? Edelman? Branch? Dillon?

 

[Nehalem]

Um, the patriots won most of their super bowls without weapons. As a Brady fan, you should know that. Again, you are arguing he wasn't effective without weapons in 2018 and 2019, which proves my point. You give him weapons at his age and his stats will start to look good. You can't deny the difference between Brady of 2018-2019 and Brady of 2020-2021. Did you think that Alex Guerrero performed some sort of magic spell on him to make him better when he went to Tampa? No, the real reason he improved was because of the team around him got better.



Should we revisit some of your political posts in the covid thread? LMAO

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Brady has better players around him on offense in TB than in NE-2019.

The difference is everyone other than you appears to recognize that he didn't have actual NFL quality players around him in 2019.

Take a look at the game logs for the end of 2019 and who was his leading receiver in the games at the end of the season.

Titans(PO) - James White
Miami - Dorsett 50 yards (note that his #2 receiver was a Elandon Roberts a LB)
Buffalo - Burkhead
Cincinnati - White

 

[sb1]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Brady has better players around him on offense in TB than in NE-2019.

The difference is everyone other than you appears to recognize that he didn't have actual NFL quality players around him in 2019.

Take a look at the game logs for the end of 2019 and who was his leading receiver in the games at the end of the season.

Titans(PO) - James White
Miami - Dorsett 50 yards (note that his #2 receiver was a Elandon Roberts a LB)
Buffalo - Burkhead
Cincinnati - White

And also what happened to the offense when we went from an NFL caliber QB in Brady to a guy whose leading receiver was the turf....

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Gronk wasn't a weapon? Edelman? Branch? Dillon?

Gronk didn't help them in the super bowls of 2001, 2003, 2004, or 2016.

Edelman and Branch are system receivers. They wouldn't do much outside of NE. Dillon was a good RB but not really a weapon in the passing game.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Brady has better players around him on offense in TB than in NE-2019.

The difference is everyone other than you appears to recognize that he didn't have actual NFL quality players around him in 2019.

And I would argue that he would have done better with those types of lesser quality players in the past. He's at an age where he needs good players around him, and there is strong evidence for that.

 

[sb1]

Edelman and Branch are system receivers

Both were still Super Bowl MVPs....

 

[crawhammer]

And I would argue that he would have done better with those types of lesser quality players in the past. He's at an age where he needs good players around him, and there is strong evidence for that.

There is no evidence that Brady is any less capable of a quarterback now than he was at any peak level throughout his entire career. Any argument to the contrary is erroneous.

Edelman and Branch are system receivers. They wouldn't do much outside of NE. Dillon was a good RB but not really a weapon in the passing game.

Edelman at his peak would have been productive in any offense in the entire league. Dillon was a f*cking beast in 2004, he helped the entire offense. I'll put a healthy 2004 Patriots team up against any team in the history of the league. I think the '85 Bears deserve a special designation for unique greatness but the '04 Patriots are in that area code. The 2007 Patriots had the best offense in the history of the NFL.

Um, the patriots won most of their super bowls without weapons. As a Brady fan, you should know that. Again, you are arguing he wasn't effective without weapons in 2018 and 2019, which proves my point. You give him weapons at his age and his stats will start to look good. You can't deny the difference between Brady of 2018-2019 and Brady of 2020-2021. Did you think that Alex Guerrero performed some sort of magic spell on him to make him better when he went to Tampa? No, the real reason he improved was because of the team around him got better.

Brady was totally fine in 2018. The offensive roster got much worse in 2019... no TEs, underwhelming rookie WRs, and part time pieces that never fit together... it was a complete disaster, Joe Montana in his prime would have sucked on that team.

Brady has made players around him better his entire career. He made all of those Tampa Bay weapons better too. But he never won a Super Bowl "without weapons"... even as great as Brady is that's overstating it. Branch, Givens and Patten (and Brown) weren't pro bowlers but for that timeframe 2001-2004 they were adequate. Brady's always had unique rhythm and timing with his slot guys... Welker, Edelman, Amendola... so those WRs were definitely great weapons for Brady. Gronk and Hernandez were great weapons for Brady too.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Both were still Super Bowl MVPs....

So was Robert Smith.

Weren't you the one who insisted that Brady "single handedly" won the SB for the Bucs? Great. Then why didn't he repeat in 2021. Injuries, you say? Then I guess Brady didn't single handedly win it after all. He needed his top receivers (Godwin, Brown) who weren't in the playoffs.

There is no evidence that Brady is any less capable of a quarterback now than he was at any peak level throughout his entire career. Any argument to the contrary is erroneous.

Brady was totally fine in 2018. The offensive roster got much worse in 2019... no TEs, underwhelming rookie WRs, and part time pieces that never fit together... it was a complete disaster, Joe Montana in his prime would have sucked on that team.

Brady has made players around him better his entire career. He made all of those Tampa Bay weapons better too. But he never won a Super Bowl "without weapons"... even as great as Brady is that's overstating it. Branch, Givens and Patten (and Brown) weren't pro bowlers but for that timeframe 2001-2004 they were adequate. Brady's always had unique rhythm and timing with his slot guys... Welker, Edelman, Amendola... so those WRs were definitely great weapons for Brady. Gronk and Hernandez were great weapons for Brady too.

See 2018 and 2019, when his receiving corps was bad and he did not play well. Even if he took the team to the SB, it was the defense and running game that won it.

The evidence is overwhelming that Brady is being propped up in Tampa because of his receivers. You don't go from 24 TDs to 40 TDs for no reason. Even Brady recognized that he needed weapons and he bolted. He himself stated that one of the most important factors in choosing a new team was the talent level.

 

[sb1]

So was Robert Smith.

Weren't you the one who insisted that Brady "single handedly" won the SB for the Bucs? Great. Then why didn't he repeat in 2021. Injuries, you say? Then I guess Brady didn't single handedly win it after all. He needed his top receivers (Godwin, Brown) who weren't in the playoffs.

Robert Smith never played in a Super Bowl.

Take Brady off the 2020 Bucs they miss the playoffs just like they did the year before. 7-9 without him, champs with him. The proof is right there. They add Brady and they won it all. In 2021 injuries and AB losing his mind put them in a bad spot and yet they were still just one defensive breakdown away from likely repeating. Take Brady off that 2021 team and they miss the playoffs. That's what happened to NE when Brady left. 12-4 to 7-9 with almost the same offense except for QB.

You talk up Montana and he wasn't close to the same guy without his weapons on SF. His best weapons in KC were a past his prime Marcus Allen and Willie Davis. 8th and 14th scoring offenses there.