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2010 NFL MVP Debate (merged several times)

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This thread went from MVP Debate to Animal Cruelty Debate. Interesting!
 
Way to miss the point.

Let me rephrase it.

Vick has proven that he is a sociopathic monster by his behavior.

Americans are not all sociopathic monsters because every now and then they enjoy a Big Mac.

You're missing my point and I'm not even arguing yours.

I didn't defend Vick.

All I'm saying is that the arguments about torturing animals are a lot closer than people imagine.
 
Actually, I'm a vegetarian. Have been for years now. My parents rescue horses from horseracing. My sister is a vet. I house rabbits that have been abused. I have my flaws but animal cruelty isn't one of them. Still, I recognize the difference between the societal norm of meat eating and purposeless torture and slaughter for entertainment. I would hope you would as well.

Animals don't need to be tortured for meat-eating. It's not a necessity.

I'm similarly unenthused about torture for profit (see gestation crates) as I am in torture for pleasure.
 
This may be a bit off tangent from a football context, but there have been quite a few posts casting aspersions on Michael Vick's character. I neither support or condemn this POV, although I personally love and respect all fellow creatures (dogs included) in the community of life.

I feel that dog-fighting, bear-baiting, killing animals for sport or financial profit are merely symptoms of a much larger problem deeply ingrained in our cultural mythology/worldview. Many people believe that the value of life forms on this planet is hierarchical, with humans at the top. Place this worldview within the framework of a ravenous, capitalistic society which stresses that the value of a human life is to actualize its limitless potential to always be and possess more, and it becomes a little clearer as to why such savage acts are carried out on our neighbors in the community of life.

Now, it could be that Vick is a sociopath who enjoyed killing dogs before he was caught. And as it was pointed out earlier, many serial killers use the torture or killing of small animals as a sort of dress rehearsal for later homicidal crimes against humans. However, at some point, we have to stop asking ourselves "how can someone do that?" and start asking "how do we raise fellow humans who relish and thrive on doing that?"

While some may not agree with all of this, or think I am being morally superior, the latter was and is not my intention. I am merely expressing my take on the issue, because it seems to extend beyond football and the MVP award.
 
Look in the mirror...

sooo what's your point?

Anything I have written on the subject has been in response to those of you that haven't kept it football. That's a fact. My whole position was and still is to base his candidacy purely on his game.
 
Actually, I'm a vegetarian. Have been for years now. My parents rescue horses from horseracing. My sister is a vet. I house rabbits that have been abused. I have my flaws but animal cruelty isn't one of them. Still, I recognize the difference between the societal norm of meat eating and purposeless torture and slaughter for entertainment. I would hope you would as well.

Not to big to say I'm wrong if what you say is true. Then I stand corrected.
 
Meh. Sounds like wishful thinking on your part. But i guess i understand your anger. But as far as the inner city goes you may not understand fully the plight of people unless you have been there at some point in your life.

You sound like someone who really doesnt understand that side of the spectrum and god bless you for it. I wish I was never born here at times but it's made me who i am. I have never killed animals or otherwise but i can't project the things ive overcome onto others. Situations are different and thats what makes people who they become. We could talk about this all day I had two loving parents even in the midst of all the madness and mayhem that the ghetto can be and thats what kept me grounded. I feel bad for those that didn't and i saw it on a daily basis. I have lost many friends to the street and they dont deserve to be trivialized just because you don't understand it. Some good some not so good. But i can tell you they all wished to be born some where else. with loving parents no drug problems higher education etc.

Give us a freakin' break, you rationalizing twit. No need to flash your shining badge of having survived the street-level school of hard knocks for those of us who "cannot possibly understand." Apparently, pompous ignorance is one aspect of the 'hood heritage you've yet to overcome.

This may be a bit off tangent from a football context, but there have been quite a few posts casting aspersions on Michael Vick's character. I neither support or condemn this POV, although I personally love and respect all fellow creatures (dogs included) in the community of life.

I feel that dog-fighting, bear-baiting, killing animals for sport or financial profit are merely symptoms of a much larger problem deeply ingrained in our cultural mythology/worldview. Many people believe that the value of life forms on this planet is hierarchical, with humans at the top. Place this worldview within the framework of a ravenous, capitalistic society which stresses that the value of a human life is to actualize its limitless potential to always be and possess more, and it becomes a little clearer as to why such savage acts are carried out on our neighbors in the community of life.

Now, it could be that Vick is a sociopath who enjoyed killing dogs before he was caught. And as it was pointed out earlier, many serial killers use the torture or killing of small animals as a sort of dress rehearsal for later homicidal crimes against humans. However, at some point, we have to stop asking ourselves "how can someone do that?" and start asking "how do we raise fellow humans who relish and thrive on doing that?"

While some may not agree with all of this, or think I am being morally superior, the latter was and is not my intention. I am merely expressing my take on the issue, because it seems to extend beyond football and the MVP award.

Excellent post. Although, folks like Mr. West Philly might pooh-pooh it as not accounting for "circumstances" that non-ghetto dwellers "can't understand." That is, if he doesn't dismiss it out of hand for going over his head.
 
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Give us a freakin' break, you rationalizing twit. No need to flash your shining badge of having survived the street-level school of hard knocks for those of us who "cannot possibly understand." Apparently, pompous ignorance is one aspect of the 'hood heritage you've yet to overcome.

Lol @ you using the phrase "hood heritage". No where in my post did I call myself anything I am not. I'm from where I'm from, I don't over think it. I will leave that up to people like yourself to dissect. What was ignorant about what i said?

I can't tell you what it's like to grow up in an affluent suburban area with a good/great educational system. So I dont expect anyone from such a place to be able to tell me about a place they can only read about or experience after they have developed into an adult without those factors shaping them.

I have more in common with a lower/lower-middle class white than any affluent blacks in this country so it's not about race. It's more about class. Maybe there are some things you just don't understand. Can you make that concession atleast?
 
Give us a freakin' break, you rationalizing twit. No need to flash your shining badge of having survived the street-level school of hard knocks for those of us who "cannot possibly understand." Apparently, pompous ignorance is one aspect of the 'hood heritage you've yet to overcome.



Excellent post. Although, folks like Mr. West Philly might pooh-pooh it as not accounting for "circumstances" that non-ghetto dwellers "can't understand." That is, if he doesn't dismiss it out of hand for going over his head.

I guess you missed the part where he said "killing for sport" which is something many people do in this country LEGALLY. But because it is apart of american culture its fine. In spanish countries **** fighting is a legal sport, but here it is illegal. I don't really want to get back into it honestly.
 
The MVP award should be based on play on the football field.
Brady has been flawless this season.
Vick just laid an egg on Tuesday.
I think this pretty much ends the debate on who should win the MVP this season.
I'm surprised that there aren't more mediots owning up to this fact after seeing Tuesday's game.
 
Lol @ you using the phrase "hood heritage". No where in my post did I call myself anything I am not. I'm from where I'm from, I don't over think it. I will leave that up to people like yourself to dissect. What was ignorant about what i said?

I can't tell you what it's like to grow up in an affluent suburban area with a good/great educational system. So I dont expect anyone from such a place to be able to tell me about a place they can only read about or experience after they have developed into an adult without those factors shaping them.

I have more in common with a lower/lower-middle class white than any affluent blacks in this country so it's not about race. It's more about class. Maybe there are some things you just don't understand. Can you make that concession atleast?

Not enough time in my day to offer a treatise on the error of your "logic." But in an attempt to bring this silliness back on topic: as far as Michael Vick is concerned the answer is a resounding HELL NO!

l
 
The MVP award should be based on play on the football field.
Brady has been flawless this season.
Vick just laid an egg on Tuesday.
I think this pretty much ends the debate on who should win the MVP this season.
I'm surprised that there aren't more mediots owning up to this fact after seeing Tuesday's game.

Under the umbrella of sports media you have multiple disciplines, so to speak. You have reporters, whose job it is to give facts, and you have commentators/columnists/journalists, etc, whose job it is to facilitate discussion.

The media wants there to be a chance someone other than Brady gets the MVP because it's a dead story otherwise. They played up the possibility of Vick being the MVP because it was better than just saying 'Brady is gonna win'.

I really wish people could get this concept. They try to create stories whenever possible because that is their job. Don't like it then turn off NFLN, ESPN and stop browsing anything but beat reporter blog entries.
 
The MVP award should be based on play on the football field.
Brady has been flawless this season.
Vick just laid an egg on Tuesday.
I think this pretty much ends the debate on who should win the MVP this season.
I'm surprised that there aren't more mediots owning up to this fact after seeing Tuesday's game.

I have been trying to make this point. Brady has had one of the best QB years in the history of the league. This mvp is more about brady than vick. Brady has no equal this season.
 
Not enough time in my day to offer a treatise on the error of your "logic." But in an attempt to bring this silliness back on topic: as far as Michael Vick is concerned the answer is a resounding HELL NO!

l

Your a patriot fan who has yet to mention your QB. You have an absolute hard-on for vick and its funny. Brady is playing out of his mind most consecutive passes without an int. That's what everyone should be talking about.
 
Under the umbrella of sports media you have multiple disciplines, so to speak. You have reporters, whose job it is to give facts, and you have commentators/columnists/journalists, etc, whose job it is to facilitate discussion.

The media wants there to be a chance someone other than Brady gets the MVP because it's a dead story otherwise. They played up the possibility of Vick being the MVP because it was better than just saying 'Brady is gonna win'.

I really wish people could get this concept. They try to create stories whenever possible because that is their job. Don't like it then turn off NFLN, ESPN and stop browsing anything but beat reporter blog entries.

You make a good point in that respect. However why is it when Brady's MVP win seems inevitable, you don't hear a peep from the media. But when Peyton looks like he's going to win MVP you get dozens of stories and mediots waxing eloquent about how awesome Peyton is and how much he deserves the award. It seems like the ballwashing hogs come out in force if a glitzy QB like Peyton or Vick is going to win it. But when a guy who just 'gets it done' and is super efficient like Brady is going to win NOBODY talks about it? That seems to be a weird double standard to me.

It's not like Brady isn't putting up eyepoppoing numbers. He leads the NFL in TDs, QB rating, INT ratio, broke the all-time record for completions without ints this season, etc. etc. AND he led his team to the #1 overall record in the NFL. Not to mention he is in charge of the #1 offense in the entire NFL. You really can't do much more than Brady did this season. Nobody is more deserving.
 
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You make a good point in that respect. However why is it when Brady's MVP win seems inevitable, you don't hear a peep from the media. But when Peyton looks like he's going to win MVP you get dozens of stories and mediots waxing eloquent about how awesome Peyton is and how much he deserves the award. It seems like the ballwashing hogs come out in force if a glitzy QB like Peyton or Vick is going to win it. But when a guy who just 'gets it done' and is super efficient like Brady is going to win NOBODY talks about it? That seems to be a weird double standard to me.

It's not like Brady isn't putting up eyepoppoing numbers. He leads the NFL in TDs, QB rating, INT ratio, broke the all-time record for completions without ints this season, etc. etc. AND he led his team to the #1 overall record in the NFL. Not to mention he is in charge of the #1 offense in the entire NFL. You really can't do much more than Brady did this season. Nobody is more deserving.

I was watching espn thinking the same thing. I thought maybe i was just being a homer tho. They didn't even have a brady going to win mvp segment on 1st & 10 on espn2. They are talking about coaches next season when brady just sealed his 2nd mvp on a remarkable streak in a great year for the pats thus far.
 
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