1/3rd of the way through the season, the offseason criticism of Belichick seems way off base

[patfanken]

We had to trade up though for Thornton with the ammunition we built by trading down, so not sure we get Pickens at all. Plus, I think the Steelers really wanted Thornton since their WR coach is his former coach at Baylor.

Elam was beaten out as starter by their 6th rounder Benford, which speaks well for Benford, or perhaps poor for Elam.

M. Jones was very highly regarded--as soon as he was taken, there was a run on CBs.

The draft is so hard. I personally wanted Devin Lloyd with the first pick, but you probably miss out on Strange and Thornton if you stay put with Lloyd.

Didn't know that about Elam. The only thing I saw was his pick against the Chiefs and how tall he looked.

As for when a guy gets picked in the draft, I'm pretty clueless. I follow the guys who DO have a clue, and as we have see so many time, most of the time even THOSE guys don't have a clue. So my post about an alternative draft is pretty much pure guess work.

All I know is that universally people thought we overdrafted pretty much every pick we had from Strange to Thornton, to MJones, to the 3 4th rounders. But even though we still won't have a clue for another few years, so far so good. All I know is that we want them to keep getting better. Look how long it took before Wise became an impact player.

 

[dtbrks]

How dare you say anything positive about this team!!!
Lol.

 

[gitgronked82]

All we really know is BB's 2022 team is 0-3 vs "3 win" teams and 3-0 vs "2 wins or less" teams
----------------------------------

It is a bit unfair to use that when you’re counting the game against. A team that is 2-3 in other games would be a 2 win team if we beat them and a 3 win team if we didn’t. Doesn’t that actually apply to all 3 teams that we lost to?
And the browns and Steelers both have 2 wins, so they’d have 3 wins if they beat us.

5 of our 6 opponents are 2-3 in other games and 1 of them is 1-3. Not a lot of difference by record in the teams we have or haven’t beaten.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Still early to declare the offseason a success but it's looking thus far like BB the GM had another sneaky good one.

The team seems to have not regressed anywhere. The big losses were JCJ, Mason, , Karras. I honestly don't think we are missing any of those guys. The one small adjustment I MAY have there was maybe wou'dve been better trading Wynn instead of Mason and kick Onwenu back to RT. I haven't followed Mason too closely this year so don't know if that would be good for us, but imagine it can't be worse than having Wynn. But these guys were thus far replaced by Jack Jones, Onwenu, Strange and replaced quite effectively. If there IS a net loss there it isn't big IMO.

Then you have the additions - Parker has been good. Zappe has been huge. Marcus Jones is at the very least a good returner to replace gunner and I'm liking whatever I've seen thus far at CB. Peppers has been solid from what I've seen. Thornton if he stays healthy I'm predicting he's going to be another big plus. Wilson and Mcmillan are so so but still have some time there.

Overall we appear to have upgraded overall at least marginally and could be alot better despite not having alot of cap to work with, so most likely he had a good to great offseason and the rebuild is coming right along. I still think we need to hit one more big offseason to take that next step - Get an impact LB or 2, solidify RT, and another disruptive edge ( this one is no longer a need if Wise's start wasn't a fluke and actually what we'll get from him moving forth). We have plenty of space and a full slate of picks to do this next year.

 

[archstanton543]

Less of a fan of BB? Yes.

I outlined the list of criticisms that seemed unwarranted at the time. That's what the list is.

I don't think this game has passed Belichick by

I disagree with that.

Lets say that you like a band that's been around for a while (say Metallica) but you criticize their new music but still love their old music. Does that make you less of a fan of the band than someone who loves everything they do regardless of it's quality?

Gatekeeping and purity tests are just not needed here. No one is above criticism especially a person with a public-facing job like BB.

You can be a fan of BB and the Patriots and still question the moves they make if they don't make sense to you or you just don't like whatever the move is.

 

[moosekill]

JC Jackson was benched last night. Perhaps letting him walk was t such a bad thing.

 

[upstater1]

I disagree with that.

Lets say that you like a band that's been around for a while (say Metallica) but you criticize their new music but still love their old music. Does that make you less of a fan of the band than someone who loves everything they do regardless of it's quality?

Gatekeeping and purity tests are just not needed here. No one is above criticism especially a person with a public-facing job like BB.

You can be a fan of BB and the Patriots and still question the moves they make if they don't make sense to you or you just don't like whatever the move is.

Yes, I think it makes you less of a fan. But it's not a big deal.

No one has said anyone is above criticism.

I'm just criticizing the criticizers.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

This kind of thread is tough for you. It's like dangling candy in front of a baby that needs a sugar rush.

I don't think the GOAT has too many doubters....maybe one here and there, but next week he'll be number 2 on the all-time win list, with only Shula next in line. With all the bad coaching in the league, he has no equal. All Patriot fans will be sorry when he's gone and will be wishing he was back. Hoping he can get us rolling again!!! Are you ready Dave?

Belichick is the goat coach but he’s in his 70s now.

Patriots fan will be a lot more sorry Brady was gone than Belichick. Brady won another super bowl since he left. Patriots have not won another division title since Brady left

Belichick can be replaced easier than Brady. Players win the games

 

[203Pat]

Discuss away, just be prepared to be blasted for positions you take based on little to no data.


Show me where I wrote anything about us being one of the best teams in the league, or admit you're just pulling stuff out your azz.

So if you have a positive take with little to no data then it's all good but if you have a negative take then you should be prepared to be "blasted". Got it.

So why are you ready to dire up the duck boats? We are 3-3 and you want to take a victory lap and claim full vindication on the coaching staff that currently has us dead last in the AFC East? The offense has looked much better than expected with the third string QB and about what a lot of us expected with the starting QB so I am not sure crowning Patricia and Judge after 6 weeks and a .500 record is warranted yet.

 

[203Pat]

JC Jackson was benched last night. Perhaps letting him walk was t such a bad thing.

He looked atrocious. What a mess.

 

[Bill Lee]

So why are you ready to dire up the duck boats? We are 3-3 and you want to take a victory lap and claim full vindication on the coaching staff that currently has us dead last in the AFC East? The offense has looked much better than expected with the third string QB and about what a lot of us expected with the starting QB so I am not sure crowning Patricia and Judge after 6 weeks and a .500 record is warranted yet.

I see you're doubling down on pulling stuff out your azz, things I never said. Totally disingenuous. F U, I have no time for azz clowns like you.

 

[203Pat]

I see you're doubling down on pulling stuff out your azz, things I never said. Totally disingenuous. F U, I have no time for azz clowns like you.

Me-ow. Sassy sassy. Follow along here. You seem to think that our 3-3 record somehow vindicates Bill's decision to have Patricia and Judge on the offensive side of the ball. I said they're doing better than I thought but I am not ready to pin a gold star on their shirts after 6 weeks and you seem to get all huffy about it.

This isn't that hard to follow along with.

 

[Bill Lee]

Me-ow. Sassy sassy. Follow along here. You seem to think that our 3-3 record somehow vindicates Bill's decision to have Patricia and Judge on the offensive side of the ball. I said they're doing better than I thought but I am not ready to pin a gold star on their shirts after 6 weeks and you seem to get all huffy about it.

This isn't that hard to follow along with.

If you were following along and actually reading what I wrote in this thread, you'd find things like "the coaching is looking solid" and "Matt has won half his games", not "we're one of the best teams in the league", and especially not "fire up the duck boats".

You're using a classic debating trick, constructing a straw horse argument, one that's easy for you to knock down, but it's not at all based on what I wrote, and it's totally disingenuous.

If that's too big of a word for you, I'll simplify it: you are being an azz clown. You are twisting and distorting the conversation so you can get a "victory lap".

 

[203Pat]

If you were following along and actually reading what I wrote in this thread, you'd find things like "the coaching is looking solid" and "Matt has won half his games", not "we're one of the best teams in the league", and especially not "fire up the duck boats".

You're using a classic debating trick, constructing a straw horse argument, one that's easy for you to knock down, but it's not at all based on what I wrote, and it's totally disingenuous.

If that's too big of a word for you, I'll simplify it: you are being an azz clown. You are twisting and distorting the conversation so you can get a "victory lap".

I am not the one getting all sassy. You're upset and I am simply disagreeing with you. It's okay. These things happen. Your day will get better.

 

[crawhammer]

with this talent we should ideally be bottom feeders and technically competing with jags , lions, panthers for the bottom spot.

These teams aren't good comps. Seriously, the Patriots are among the top franchises in the history of the league and had the most recent dynasty. Yet you're comparing them to arguably the worst organizations in the NFL.

The Panthers had a few successful seasons with Delhomme and Newton but they've never won a SB championship. They're coming off 3 consecutive 5 wins seasons and probably would struggle to win games in the SEC this season.

The Jaguars have had a losing season in 13 of the last 14 years. In the last 22 seasons they have 1 division title and 3 playoff wins. They won a total of 4 games over the last two seasons.

The Lions haven't won a playoff game since 1991. They haven't won their division since 1993. They've reached double digit wins only 4 times in the last 30 years. Last place in their division 4 years in a row.

So let's not get totally ridiculous to say the Patriots are in a good place because they're not among the dregs of the NFL.

Let's stick with the most obvious comparisons: 1) to other teams in the division and 2) to other teams in the conference.

1) The AFC East

Buffalo is undeniably better than the other teams in the division.
Miami gets the nod over the Patriots because we apparently can't beat them anymore.
NYJ has a better record than the Patriots however I think the Patriots are the better team.

By my estimation the Patriots rank third in the division.

2) The AFC (a full ranking of all 16 teams)

01. Buffalo
02. Kansas City
03. LA Chargers
04. Cincinnati
05. Miami
06. Baltimore
07. Tennessee
08. NE Patriots
09. NY Jets
10. Indianapolis
11. LV Raiders
12. Denver
13. Cleveland
14. Pittsburgh
15. Jacksonville
16. Houston

 

[Bill Lee]

No one is above criticism especially a person with a public-facing job like BB.

You can be a fan of BB and the Patriots and still question the moves they make if they don't make sense to you or you just don't like whatever the move is.

Fine, but what about bogus criticisms?

Here we have a list of eight different criticisms levied against BB in this off season that are now turning out to be either false or at least undermined.

Wouldn't it have been better for people who claim to be fans of the Patriots to at least give things a chance to play out before shooting off their mouths?

Maybe give the GOAT coach the benefit of a few doubts?

Why endorse the "shoot first, ask questions later", "hawt takez" kind of approach?

 

[Toofy]

These teams aren't good comps. Seriously, the Patriots are among the top franchises in the history of the league and had the most recent dynasty. Yet you're comparing them to arguably the worst organizations in the NFL.

The Panthers had a few successful seasons with Delhomme and Newton but they've never won a SB championship. They're coming off 3 consecutive 5 wins seasons and probably would struggle to win games in the SEC this season.

The Jaguars have had a losing season in 13 of the last 14 years. In the last 22 seasons they have 1 division title and 3 playoff wins. They won a total of 4 games over the last two seasons.

The Lions haven't won a playoff game since 1991. They haven't won their division since 1993. They've reached double digit wins only 4 times in the last 30 years. Last place in their division 4 years in a row.

So let's not get totally ridiculous to say the Patriots are in a good place because they're not among the dregs of the NFL.

Let's stick with the most obvious comparisons: 1) to other teams in the division and 2) to other teams in the conference.

1) The AFC East

Buffalo is undeniably better than the other teams in the division.
Miami gets the nod over the Patriots because we apparently can't beat them anymore.
NYJ has a better record than the Patriots however I think the Patriots are the better team.

By my estimation the Patriots rank third in the division.

2) The AFC (a full ranking of all 16 teams)

01. Buffalo
02. Kansas City
03. LA Chargers
04. Cincinnati
05. Miami
06. Baltimore
07. Tennessee
08. NE Patriots
09. NY Jets
10. Indianapolis
11. LV Raiders
12. Denver
13. Cleveland
14. Pittsburgh
15. Jacksonville
16. Houston

I think we are stating the same thing. All I am saying if all things were equal and without coaching being a factor, we would be bottom of the barrel type of team with the level of talent we have and would not be a mid tier team like what you have listed. Our sum of parts exceeds the individual value and that is due to coaching .

We had drought of playmakers and decent drafts from 2015 -2020 and finally are seeing some dividends with the 2021 and 2022 draft . Hopefully next draft and off-season brings us to parity on talent level with other franchisees .

We need a stud QB, Stud WR and a very good DE to pair with Judon to complete the team. Donno if it's Mac, Zappe or somebody else.

 

[Bill Lee]

I am not the one getting all sassy. You're upset and I am simply disagreeing with you. It's okay. These things happen. Your day will get better.

Strange how you earlier pointed out the virtues of a discussion forum, and are now giving yourself a pass for twisting and distorting the conversation by suggesting it's just a simple disagreement, instead of acknowledging the evidence I presented showing that you twisted and distorted the conversation. These things happen when having a discussion with an azz clown.

 

[archstanton543]

Fine, but what about bogus criticisms?

Here we have a list of eight different criticisms levied against BB in this off season that are now turning out to be either false or at least undermined.

Wouldn't it have been better for people who claim to be fans of the Patriots to at least give things a chance to play out before shooting off their mouths?

Maybe give the GOAT coach the benefit of a few doubts?

Why endorse the "shoot first, ask questions later", "hawt takez" kind of approach?

Those people are easily ignoreable.

Not everyone has to be lockstep. There are going to reactionary kooks no matter where you go.

Due to format of an internet message board, everyone gets a seat at the table. But, again, those people with the "hawt takez" or irrational opinions are easily ignored. You can engage with them or not.

I'm not for gatekeeping and purity tests. That's all.

 

[crawhammer]

I think we are stating the same thing. All I am saying if all things were equal and without coaching being a factor, we would be bottom of the barrel type of team with the level of talent we have and would not be a mid tier team like what you have listed. Our sum of parts exceeds the individual value and that is due to coaching .

Our talent level exceeds that of Detroit and Jacksonville and far exceeds that of Carolina.

If you want to compare coaches then let's start with Detroit's Dan Campbell being the biggest goof in the league currently. Carolina doesn't even really have a head coach. They finally fired Matt Rhule who shouldn't have even made it to the start of this season. Now they're stuck with interim HC Steve Wilks who has one disastrous season in Arizona on his résumé. Anyway that Carolina roster is so bad a great coach would hardly make a difference. Doug Pederson in Jacksonville? He's a middling coach I guess. He did outduel Belichick when Belichick had Brady at the height of his powers while Pederson was drawing up trick plays with a journeyman back QB.

We need a stud QB, Stud WR and a very good DE to pair with Judon to complete the team.

Is that all we need?? Jesus had you included a CB then you would have covered all of the most important positions in today's NFL. I think a stud WR is realistic and the team could go after one in free agency. The QB of the future is already on the roster... Mac or Zappe is the question. The team won't be bringing in another franchise hopeful quarterback any time soon (at least not before Belichick retires).