Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

condon84 said:

Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Mayo. All first round draft choices that never played in a 3-4.

Click to expand...

Come on, you cant be that ignorant.
Its not 3-4 vs 4-3. A guy we draft to play 3-4 2 gap OLB was playing DE, probably in a one gap in college, and other than pass rushing, used zero of the tachniques and played zero of the responsibilities he would have in our system.

How many picks have been invested in players for our OLB position? Given that this LB is a playmaking position of our defense, I find it odd that we've only invested just 1 pick withing the first two rounds for OLB since BB has been here.

Click to expand...

OK then, what is your explanation? I have given mine, your response is we didnt draft any. Why?


.

Obviously if you don't feel a player isn't good enough, you don't draft him. But again, the amount of draft picks invested for OLBs is so minimal. Given that this is a major weakness of ours and has been for a number of years,

Click to expand...

A number of years? Maybe if that number is 2.

they would have made a point in looking for possible players.

Click to expand...

So you think they didn't even evaluate OLBs? Didnt have them on the board?

I don't think it's a coincidence that we've drafted at least 5 CBs (4 within the first two rounds), all after we lost Asante, Gay, and Wilson.

Click to expand...

Once again, what is your explanation? BB is stupid? He doesnt know pass rushing counts? He likes to f*ck with you?

Shawn Crable was a third round pick, so I guess he was a relatively high investment. My point is, as important as OLB position is for us, we don't act like it the way we avoid players for that position in the draft.

Click to expand...

One more time, I have taken great pains to explain to you why the position is unique. You keep restating 'we havent drafted them' in response to this. What is your explanation?

Are we the only team that has unrealistic expectations for OLBs?

Click to expand...

Who says they are unrealistic?

Steelers always finds OLBs.

Click to expand...

Seriously, do you have a clue what the differences between our defense and the Steelers is? Do you really think that the Steelers LBs would put up the sack numbers they do in an aggressive blitzing scheme, if they were in our more conservative system. Here you make the mistake that sack totals determine quality of player. Have you ever noticed that while the Steelers sack the QB more, we typically have better pass defense? Do you think that is a coincidence? Do you think our pass defense would suffer if we started aggressively scheming to free up blitzers at the risk of getting shreaded with the blitz is picked up? Where have all those great Pitt Lbs been against us when Brady tears that defense up?

The Packers transformed into a 3-4 team just 2 years ago and look at their OLBs. Cowboys found OLBs. Baltimore finds them too.

Click to expand...

Once again, you are considering sack totals in a system that works to create a sack opportunity for the player as the judgment of the quality of the player. Thats not apples to apples. In most of those systems the guys you consider great OLBs are no more than stand up DEs, rushing the passer on every down and trying to stumble on to a RB along the way i its a run. That is not what we do. Our OLBs could produce better sack stats if we played a different style. That doesnt make them better players.

You even have a 4-3 team like the Giants who took a DE (Kiwanuka) and are playing him at OLB in a 4-3. It's not like these guys don't exist coming out, it's just the unwillingness of the Patriots to invest a high round pick for them that's mind boggling.

Click to expand...

Its not mind boggling at all. Its a pick that requires a blind projection of whether a player has skillsets he never used in college. Why do you refuse to recognize this.
But again, what is your explanation? BB is stupid? BB is secretly trying to ruin the team? BB needs you to explain to him OLB is important?

We finally use one last year, and he looks like he's the only one that has shown flashes, albeit in sporadic play, that can become an impact player as he develops. Why haven't we done it more often in the past? Woodley was there for the taking and so was Matthews.

Click to expand...

If you really think Matthews is a good fit as an OLB in our system, then I can only conclude you are fantasy football brainwashed and think that its all about stats, and that players with the benefit of a defense designed to create their opportunity would do as well when they are simply given an assignment to carry out. You do realize that all of those sacks Matthews gets where he is untouched aren't a reason he is good, they are him getting the stat that resulted from the play design and what his teammates did. They are not the same as beating down your man in a pass rush. Eliminate those, and add in all of the times he is embarrassed in the run game, and you may have a high opinion of TBC.

Our current crop of OLBs outside of Cunningham lack the athletic ability of becoming impact players. Banta-Cain has reached his ceiling,

Click to expand...

What does that even mean?

Ninko is a joke as a starter,

Click to expand...

Actually Ninko has done a pretty decent job playing 2 gap OLB in the base. Of course you judge his play by the number in the sack column, without realizing that sacks are a small factor in how well a 34 OLB who doesnt play in sub packages played.

Fletcher and Guyton would never sniff a snap at OLB for a team like the Steelers and Ravens.

Or ours since they are ILBs,

The guys that have the physical traits to become impact players are in high demand and go early. Coincidentally, we use this philosophy when we draft DLs but not so when we go for OLBs.

You really don't see any of this and find it odd?

Click to expand...

Dude, for the 5th time, I have explained why. What is your explanation.
I suppose you don't like the fact that OLB is a tremendously difficult draft evaluation for us, because you would rather repeat over and over again that we didnt draft OLBs and feel better about it. I don't know. But unless you can offer a more reasonable explanation you are the one in denialabot what is staring you in the face.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

I agree that there will be free agency.

However, there doesn't HAVE to be free agency as we know it. Rather there could be free agency under in-season waiver rules.

If the CBA isn't signed say untol September, there could be a rookie salary schedule, all 2010 free agents could continue to be properties of their old teams at 2010 salaries plus an inflation adjustment for the 2011 season, and there would be roster expansions for the 2011 season. Normal waiver rules would start as stated in the new CBA.

While this is a mess, I'm not sure that frue free agency after season already started would be any better a situation.

BOTTOM LINE
I expect a new CBA in late July or early August with a short free agency period.

Click to expand...

I'm not clear on your point. If you are saying there will be football without a CBA, the league would not likely be allowed to take away 2010 Free Agents freedom. They decertified so must be treated individually.
If there is a new CBA there is zero chance the NFLPA* will allow 2010 free agents to not be free.

AndyJohnson said:

Come on, you cant be that ignorant.
Its not 3-4 vs 4-3. A guy we draft to play 3-4 2 gap OLB was playing DE, probably in a one gap in college, and other than pass rushing, used zero of the tachniques and played zero of the responsibilities he would have in our system.

Click to expand...

Wilfork, Warren, and Seymour all played 4-3 one gap in college. They played zero of the techniques the Pats asked them to play when they got drafted. Same with Mayo who played attacking 4-3. Now he reads and reacts. And it's not like the DEs and OLBs now have a foreign concept of dropping back or playing without a hand on the ground. Point is, these guys all developed technique when they got here and got coached up.

OK then, what is your explanation? I have given mine, your response is we didnt draft any. Why?

Click to expand...

BB ain't perfect.

So you think they didn't even evaluate OLBs? Didnt have them on the board?

Once again, what is your explanation? BB is stupid? He doesnt know pass rushing counts? He likes to f*ck with you?

Click to expand...

He's not stupid, but he's not perfect either. Dude has made a lot of mistakes in his evaluation of DEs/OLBs coming out of college. We have TBC and Ninko as our starting OLB as proof.

One more time, I have taken great pains to explain to you why the position is unique. You keep restating 'we havent drafted them' in response to this. What is your explanation?

Click to expand...

So unique that only TBC and Ninko can fit the bill?

Seriously, do you have a clue what the differences between our defense and the Steelers is? Do you really think that the Steelers LBs would put up the sack numbers they do in an aggressive blitzing scheme, if they were in our more conservative system. Here you make the mistake that sack totals determine quality of player. Have you ever noticed that while the Steelers sack the QB more, we typically have better pass defense? Do you think that is a coincidence? Do you think our pass defense would suffer if we started aggressively scheming to free up blitzers at the risk of getting shreaded with the blitz is picked up? Where have all those great Pitt Lbs been against us when Brady tears that defense up?

Click to expand...

Sure I know the difference so does everyone here. And I'm sure if Woodley or Harrison were in our defense, they might not put up the same sack number they're putting up now. But I'm sure they'll perform better than TBC and Ninko have done so far.

Once again, you are considering sack totals in a system that works to create a sack opportunity for the player as the judgment of the quality of the player. Thats not apples to apples. In most of those systems the guys you consider great OLBs are no more than stand up DEs, rushing the passer on every down and trying to stumble on to a RB along the way i its a run. That is not what we do. Our OLBs could produce better sack stats if we played a different style. That doesnt make them better players.

Click to expand...

Where have I said sack totals is a judgement on how good players are? I use my eyes to see how good a player is. Woodley and Harrison are all better OLBs than what we have. Same with Suggs and Matthews. Only in Patriot fantasy land is where Ninko and TBC are better players than these guys.

Its not mind boggling at all. Its a pick that requires a blind projection of whether a player has skillsets he never used in college. Why do you refuse to recognize this.
But again, what is your explanation? BB is stupid? BB is secretly trying to ruin the team? BB needs you to explain to him OLB is important?

Click to expand...

Sorry to break it to, but BB ain't perfect. His handling of our OLB position has been a failure. His last great move regarding that position was signing Colvin, which was 8 years ago.

If you really think Matthews is a good fit as an OLB in our system, then I can only conclude you are fantasy football brainwashed and think that its all about stats, and that players with the benefit of a defense designed to create their opportunity would do as well when they are simply given an assignment to carry out. You do realize that all of those sacks Matthews gets where he is untouched aren't a reason he is good, they are him getting the stat that resulted from the play design and what his teammates did. They are not the same as beating down your man in a pass rush. Eliminate those, and add in all of the times he is embarrassed in the run game, and you may have a high opinion of TBC.

Click to expand...

Here's a quote from Nick Casserio about Matthews:

"The things he's doing for the Packers, I would say there are probably some things that he would do if he were on this team," Patriots director of player personnel Nick Caserio said. "He's a good football player. I think if you line him up in any system, he's going to be a good football player whether it's our team, the Packers, any other team in the NFL."

Click to expand...

Here's a quote from Belichick about Matthews:

"He's a guy with a high motor, so even at times when it looks like he's blocked, he can still come out and get in on the play," Belichick said. "He's a good pursuit player, but I'd say his speed and his quickness are big assets. He's a guy that's never really out of the play. You can run away from him, but he can run you down -- or you can run to him and it kind of looks like you might have him blocked, but he spins out of things and uses his quickness and his athleticism to get out of tight situations, stay alive and make plays."

Click to expand...

Patriots could have had Packers playmaker Clay Matthews - Projo Pats Blog

The fantasy that you and a few posters here that think Matthews suck and would not be a good player for us is just plain ignorant. It's your inability to comprehend that another player who is good in another system could very well be a good player in our system is your issue. Once you get past that handicap, then you'll be able to understand.

Actually Ninko has done a pretty decent job playing 2 gap OLB in the base. Of course you judge his play by the number in the sack column, without realizing that sacks are a small factor in how well a 34 OLB who doesnt play in sub packages played.

Click to expand...

Again, you are only concentrating on our players and what you want them to be. Not the actual reality.

Dude, for the 5th time, I have explained why. What is your explanation.
I suppose you don't like the fact that OLB is a tremendously difficult draft evaluation for us, because you would rather repeat over and over again that we didnt draft OLBs and feel better about it. I don't know. But unless you can offer a more reasonable explanation you are the one in denialabot what is staring you in the face.

Click to expand...

The only one who is in denial is you and the fact that BB may not be a good evaluator of DE/OLBs coming out of college.

RhodyPatriot said:

Defense Schmeefense....we're the New England Colts and always remember that our heritage as Colts is to put up sweet numbers in the reg season and then get exposed when it counts.

Click to expand...

Except the Colts have Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis.

Wow.


I read about a page and thought i was on a L. A. Clippers messageboard.




The Patriots must really really suck.

townes said:

Wow.


I read about a page and thought i was on a L. A. Clippers messageboard.




The Patriots must really really suck.

Click to expand...

I was thinking of the Pittsburgh Pirates messageboard.
Poor Pats Fans(i.e. condon84).

Sciz said:

They're going to grab them when they come. Cunningham is a great fit. Smith and Quinn were really the only fits this year, although I (apparently wrongly) thought Bailey had a chance.

Click to expand...

That's an oddly small list for someone who has "JJ Watt or bust" under their screen name

Sciz said:

I lost the exact quote from Belichick, but basically he said that if you pick somebody who fills a need but you don't feel is a good enough prospect for the pick, then you solved nothing and have to fill the need again next year. That's what it was like for DE and OLB this year. After pick 14, there were no front 7 defenders worth of a top-64 pick.

Click to expand...

Clearly. I mean Cam Jordan? Cameron Heyward? Muhammed Wilkerson? Brooks Reed? Jabal Sheard? Bust, Bust, Bust, Bust, Bust. Obviously. Because if the Pats passed on them, by definition, they must not be worth a top-64 pick.

Congrats, you're a modern-day Aesop . . . you just rewrote The Fox and the Grapes for our time

condon84 said:

Wilfork, Warren, and Seymour all played 4-3 one gap in college. They played zero of the techniques the Pats asked them to play when they got drafted. Same with Mayo who played attacking 4-3. Now he reads and reacts. And it's not like the DEs and OLBs now have a foreign concept of dropping back or playing without a hand on the ground. Point is, these guys all developed technique when they got here and got coached up.

Click to expand...

If you can't recognize the difference between a DL playing a different scheme and a DE becoming an OLB, what's the point of having a football discussion?
Are you seriously trying to say evaluating a DT playing mostly 1 gap as to how he will do in a 2 gap is the same thing as evaluating how a 43 DE will play as an OLB in a 2gap 34? Come on, you cant be that dense.
Your comments about Mayo indicate you know nothing about LB play.

BB ain't perfect.

Click to expand...

]
Who said he was?

He's not stupid, but he's not perfect either. Dude has made a lot of mistakes in his evaluation of DEs/OLBs coming out of college. We have TBC and Ninko as our starting OLB as proof.

Click to expand...

Wait, which is it? First you said he didnt draft any then you said he made mistakes?

So let me get this straight. Your answer is that the reason we don't draft OLBs is that BB knows we need them, can easily evaluate them, and just chooses to not draft them?

So unique that only TBC and Ninko can fit the bill?

Click to expand...

What team has every player at every position that can play for them?

Sure I know the difference so does everyone here. And I'm sure if Woodley or Harrison were in our defense, they might not put up the same sack number they're putting up now. But I'm sure they'll perform better than TBC and Ninko have done so far.

Click to expand...

So, you are saying probowl players are good. Fascinating.

Where have I said sack totals is a judgement on how good players are? I use my eyes to see how good a player is. Woodley and Harrison are all better OLBs than what we have. Same with Suggs and Matthews. Only in Patriot fantasy land is where Ninko and TBC are better players than these guys.

Click to expand...

Because you are isolating players based on sack numbers.
Why not incude Dwight Freeney? You are talking mostly about guys who are 43 DEs that happen to be standing up.
Want to discuss Matthews and Suggs ability to play the run? They ARE worse than our OLBs in that area. But you wouldn't know because you are counting sacks.

Sorry to break it to, but BB ain't perfect. His handling of our OLB position has been a failure. His last great move regarding that position was signing Colvin, which was 8 years ago.

Click to expand...

Never said he was perfect. I explained the challenges in drafting OLBs in our system. You on the other hand are using 'we aint good there' as your in depth analysis for the draft strategy.

Here's a quote from Nick Casserio about Matthews:



Here's a quote from Belichick about Matthews:



Patriots could have had Packers playmaker Clay Matthews - Projo Pats Blog

Click to expand...

Right, and BB and the organization don't say glowing things about every player on every opponent when they are asked right?
But wait. You said BB sucks at evaluating OLBs so why would his opinion be right for you now?

The fantasy that you and a few posters here that think Matthews suck and would not be a good player for us is just plain ignorant. It's your inability to comprehend that another player who is good in another system could very well be a good player in our system is your issue. Once you get past that handicap, then you'll be able to understand.

Click to expand...

When did I say he would suck here? His poor run defense would be exposed, and the fact that we do not send all out blitzes that try to free up an unblocked blitzer would reduce that sack total you are so focussed on.
There is no doubt that there are players who can succeed in different systems, I have discussed that dozens of times despite my inability to grasp it. But the fact that some can is not proof that any can. Mathews skill set is not best suited for what we do. Would start? Of course. Would be be reasopnably effective? Sure. But you are looking at what he does in a different system and calling him a first round miss and I am looking at what he would do in our system and saying he is a stretch. Can you compehend that?

Again, you are only concentrating on our players and what you want them to be. Not the actual reality.

Click to expand...

No, I am describing what he is. He plays pretty good run D, has above average cover skills for an OLB, and is not asked to rush the passer an awful lot. Yet you want him to get sacks from coverage? on runs? from the bench?

The only one who is in denial is you and the fact that BB may not be a good evaluator of DE/OLBs coming out of college.

Click to expand...

5 times and you still haven't answered the question.
What is your explanation for why BB doesnt draft OLBs?

What are you basing his evaluation skills on? Crable who couldn't stay healthy? Cunningham?

I will say it one more time. The difference between evaluating OLBs in our system and almost every other position is that you have no opportunity to look at film and see whehter they have the skillset on the field to do what we ask of them. That is fact, although it conflicts with your griping so you seem to not want to accept it.
Using your highest pick on the position you have the least legitimate data on is extremely risky. BB is very against risk with high picks. Its really that simple. Put it this way, there is an inherent downgrade due to uncertainty of a college DE that we will ask to play contain and off tackle, 2 gap defense, drop into coverage, and blitz when there is zero film of him ever doing anything resembling that.
Or do you have a better explanation why we don't draft OLBs high?

FCB02062 said:

Yup, get ready for alot of mediocre quarterbacks posting BIG #s against this "defense" again, Like Flynn and Sanchize last year. If this defense doesn't replicate their incredible turnover ratio from last year, we're looking at a bottom 10 defense. Take away that ridiculous turnover ratio from last year and last year's team is 9-7 or 10-6 with a defense ranked in the bottom third in just about every category....

Click to expand...

So, how was the Jets draft?

Doggin94it said:

Clearly. I mean Cam Jordan? Cameron Heyward? Muhammed Wilkerson? Brooks Reed? Jabal Sheard? Bust, Bust, Bust, Bust, Bust. Obviously. Because if the Pats passed on them, by definition, they must not be worth a top-64 pick.

Congrats, you're a modern-day Aesop . . . you just rewrote The Fox and the Grapes for our time

Click to expand...

Jordan, Reed, and Sheard were obvious misfits for the defensive scheme. There's a reason I was laughing at the reports of the Pats trading up to 9 for Jordan.
Wilkerson is a year away from making any positive impact. His technique is atrocious. He doesn't even have flashes of good technique; he just flashes success with poor technique. It wouldn't surprise me if Heyward didn't pass the "love of football" test. Can't 2-gap if you're not willing to play hard every single snap.

Free Agents in 2011 for LB and DE:

Mike Peterson LB
Marcus Spears DE
Mattias Kiwanuka DE
Barrett Rudd LB
Charles Johnson DE
Stephen Tulloch LB
Jason Babin DE
Ray Edwards DE
Cullen Jenkins DE
Paul Posluszny LB
Chad Greenway LB
Tamba Hali LB
LaMarr Woodley LB

And that's just from the Bleacher Report top 50. Not including the 15-20 guys who will lose jobs because they are over priced and the team drafted a DE/OLB in the top two rounds.

Maybe I'm forgetting something but is there some reason why Mike Wright is being overlooked here?

Chris Gocong is a free agent. 6'4" 265 lbs. Reminds me of vrabel.

"Sorry to break it to, but BB ain't perfect. His handling of our OLB position has been a failure. His last great move regarding that position was signing Colvin, which was 8 years ago."


How did you feel about the Adalius Thomas signing at the time? I'm sure you were on the bandwagon for that like everybody else but it didn't work out.

The Pats have dominated for a decade without drafting a 1st round OLB? how can that be?

Sciz said:

Jordan, Reed, and Sheard were obvious misfits for the defensive scheme. There's a reason I was laughing at the reports of the Pats trading up to 9 for Jordan.
Wilkerson is a year away from making any positive impact. His technique is atrocious. He doesn't even have flashes of good technique; he just flashes success with poor technique. It wouldn't surprise me if Heyward didn't pass the "love of football" test. Can't 2-gap if you're not willing to play hard every single snap.

Click to expand...

Why is this so hard for people to understand. Saying they aren't fits for the Pats is not the same as saying they aren't worth a top 64 pick. They may have skills that will translate very well to another system.

Wilkerson not only flashes with poor technique, he flashes against future used car salesmen. The Jets can have him.

Heyward I like more but I don't think he's a considerable improvement on the DL we already have. How much would he improve the pass rush that everybody insists is the problem? He'll be solid against the run and let the Pitt LB's blitz which is all they do.

Bigfatcat999 said:

Free Agents in 2011 for LB and DE:

Mike Peterson LB
Marcus Spears DE
Mattias Kiwanuka DE
Barrett Rudd LB
Charles Johnson DE
Stephen Tulloch LB
Jason Babin DE
Ray Edwards DE
Cullen Jenkins DE
Paul Posluszny LB
Chad Greenway LB
Tamba Hali LB
LaMarr Woodley LB

And that's just from the Bleacher Report top 50. Not including the 15-20 guys who will lose jobs because they are over priced and the team drafted a DE/OLB in the top two rounds.

Click to expand...

Depends on the rules. If we adopt 2010 rules, 6-year FA takes away Kiwanuka, Johnson, Tulloch, Edwards, Posluszny, Hali, and Woodley.

Sciz said:

Jordan, Reed, and Sheard were obvious misfits for the defensive scheme. There's a reason I was laughing at the reports of the Pats trading up to 9 for Jordan.
Wilkerson is a year away from making any positive impact. His technique is atrocious. He doesn't even have flashes of good technique; he just flashes success with poor technique. It wouldn't surprise me if Heyward didn't pass the "love of football" test. Can't 2-gap if you're not willing to play hard every single snap.

Click to expand...

This is sad. Jordan was talked about by most analysts primarily as a 3-4 DE - here's what Gil Brandt had to say about him:

Jordan is one of the higher-probability, game-ready prospects in this class. He's an ideal fit as a 3-4 defensive end but could also serve as a strongside DE in a four-man front. Really a good fit for any team that stresses gap integrity. Has good strength at the point of attack, plays with sound positioning, locates the ball carrier, gets off blocks and uses his good quickness and agility against the run. Not a big-time pass rushing talent by any means, but still has some good power moves. Jordan has the skill set to come off the board pretty quickly . . .

Jordan is a great combination of size, strength and speed for a 3-4 defensive end prospect. At his best against the run. Keeps blockers off his body, has the diagnosing skills to find the football and can get off blocks and make plays. Shows impressive stamina for a big d-end staying on the field for third down and playing all four quarters.

Click to expand...

Heyward not loving football? Yeah, the Steelers are renowned for taking guys like that. There were no questions about his effort or work ethic, and he came from a football family. Here's Yahoo's analyst on him:

He did a lot of good things in college, but I could see the right kind of NFL defensive coordinator getting hold of him, teaching him some additional moves, and unleashing a beast on the pros in a couple years. The work ethic and attitude are there; now the NFL needs to meet Cameron Heyward halfway.

Click to expand...

Wilkerson an unfinished product? Brandt again:

Wilkerson is an elite 3-4 defensive end prospect with idea size, excellent shedding ability and the athleticism to pursue from the backside and rush the passer. Jolts offensive lineman at the point of attack, can beat the double team, finds the football and makes plays against the run. Does not have rare first-step quickness but can take a direct line through blockers to pressure the quarterback and has range against the run. Despite size, is a three-down guy who plays with a high effort level for four quarters. Wilkerson's stock has risen quickly and he could come off the board in the middle of round one. . . .

STRENGTHS:

Wilkerson's a prototypical blend of height, bulk and speed for a defensive tackle or five-technique. Dominant against the run. Has great get off, holds up at the point of attack, shows outstanding ability to shed, and very good closing burst to the ball. Very effective power bull rusher. Has good hands. Good stamina.

WEAKNESSES [note - you rarely see a prospect profile with a first sentence in the "weaknesses" category like this, especially from Brandt]

Hard to point out weaknesses in his game. Does not possess elite initial quickness off the ball as a pass rusher or penetrating against the run but still good in this area. Shows some nastiness on occasion but would like to see him play with a more consistent mean streak.

Click to expand...

Brooks Reed? He's an ideal 3-4 pass rusher (not sure if he can play in space, but he should contribute as a situational rusher immediately) - so much so that Rex Ryan (who knows a thing or two about pass rushers) was strongly in favor of drafting him in Round 1.

Sheard? He was a guy who just about every pats fan was saying "it's ok, we'll get him day 2" after the trade out at 28; now, he's not a fit?

Like I said - sour grapes.

C'mon, be honest - you're simply saying "I trust Bill Belichick to have made the right picks". It's not a crazy position to take, given his track record (though he's a much better coach than a drafter). But to say that there were no 3-4 front 7 guys worth taking between picks 14 and 34 is just ludicrous.

RayClay said:

So, how was the Jets draft?

Click to expand...

Pretty good, actually. I'm somewhat disappointed they didn't draft a pass rusher or a Safety, but I understand those first two picks (Ellis in the third could be a true steal), and Kiper, Casserly, and a number of other analysts seemed to like it (Casserly called Powell the best pick of Day 3). Grabbing two WRs makes a lot of sense given that 3 of their top 4 WRs are FA (I'd be ok with them losing 2 of them, though I'd obviously prefer they be able to re-sign both Braylon and Santonio [FYI, if, as I suspect, this year will end up getting played according to last year's rules, that'll be easy, since Holmes will only be an RFA]).

But it's hard to judge a draft in a vacuum, especially with no FA before it (so you really have no idea what your "holes" truly are) and without the players playing a down of football. Ask me again in 3 years. (FWIW, I didn't like Gholston but thought he was the right pick at that spot; in hindsight, I couldn't have been more wrong. On the other hand, I wanted Ngata at 4 the year we took Brick, and as good as Ferguson's been, Ngata is better)

nabwong said:

Chris Gocong is a free agent. 6'4" 265 lbs. Reminds me of vrabel.

Click to expand...

I liked him as a raw canvas from college. I like him even more now that some other team has invested 3-5 years grooming him, a la Mr. Vrabel.