Our Defense is NOT Loaded; our BACKUPS are weak.

[One-If-By-Sea]

A good QB is a necessary but not sufficient basis for success.

The roster determines how far that success goes.

No roster is sufficient. There are a ton of factors like health, strength of schedule, playoff luck of the draw, home field advantage, etc.

Overall a rebuild is usually 3 years based on good drafting and typical player development timelines. We will see this year if the Pats sophomores take a 2nd year jump.

I think the Pats have a good mix of veterans and younger players, but we will see. There will continue to be lots of personnel turnover for a few more years.

 

[Wozzy]

you see a ras score
I see a player that was a 3rd rd pick that has been waived twice, and signed off a teams PS.
he played 56 defensive snaps last season. all season.
you can make any excuse you want as to why. you usually do.
I would like to see some additional competition available, other than 3 players that have yet to play an nfl snap
If Muma is the best option, then Wozzy wins a prize

His athleticism is great, so yeah… that helps. He is also strong, a big reason Gibbens failed is because he didn’t have enough of either.

Mike Vrabel was a backup and special teamer his first four years in Pittsburgh… guess he sucked and wasn’t worth taking a chance on either. Being a good special teamer is the pathway to being a good defender… Muma is that.

You want some old guy to sign here, no old guy worth a damn wants to sign now for less than they could get after injuries occur elsewhere. No old guy wants to sign to backup Spillane…. but hey, not much you say makes sense in the real world.

 

[mgteich]

I do not like or dislike Muma
I do believe he has not shown much on the field playing defense
he was only able to get onto the field last season in a couple of blow out games.
perhaps he sticks on ST
I would feel better about the situation if another vet was brought in to compete, and best player plays...
as with mostly all comments I make, I could give a sh*t what Wozzy thinks

Have any the rest shown more great things on Defense: Britt, Obiazor, Gainer, Reese, Jacobs?

 

[mgteich]

Vrabel has rebuilt the team. We could have signed another LB or two (we still can), but that was the choices. It was not because somehow the rebuild isn't over. These kinds of decisions are made on all levels of teams, in various step of their development.

 

[rkarp1]

His athleticism is great, so yeah… that helps. He is also strong, a big reason Gibbens failed is because he didn’t have enough of either.

Mike Vrabel was a backup and special teamer his first four years in Pittsburgh… guess he sucked and wasn’t worth taking a chance on either. Being a good special teamer is the pathway to being a good defender… Muma is that.

You want some old guy to sign here, no old guy worth a damn wants to sign now for less than they could get after injuries occur elsewhere. No old guy wants to sign to backup Spillane…. but hey, not much you say makes sense in the real world.

Zach Cunningham
Germaine Pratt
Willie Gay Jr
all fit, are affordable, and would be handed nothing other than a chance to compete
best player plays.
Muma still has a role on ST, with the opportunity to show growth on D.
again, I hope Muma is the next Vrabel. but thinking him as option #1 in case of injury is not my preference, until he proves/earns that role.
so far in his career, he never has.

 

[rkarp1]

Have any the rest shown more great things on Defense: Britt, Obiazor, Gainer, Reese, Jacobs?

I think Britt is pretty good against the run, and in Tampa showed he can play a good amount of defensive snaps and ST snaps.
I have to think as the roster currently sits, he is a roster lock.
the other 4 are unknowns with some potential upside.
I love the fact that they are getting a shot.

but this team went to the SB last year. they are well positioned against the cap. their staff has far reaching connections to lots of players. they can also offer the opportunity to come in and play at ILB.

it seems like a good situation for a vet that knows Vrabel or Williams (or Kuhr)

 

[Thelonious]

But a great QB is sufficient for success.

Simply not true. Again, necessary but not sufficient. I really don't know what else to say. There have been plenty of excellent QB;'s stuck on lousy teams with lousy front offices. Stafford comes to mind. How many years of futility did he have? And he was one of the best qb's in the league over all that time.

 

[Family]

Simply not true. Again, necessary but not sufficient. I really don't know what else to say. There have been plenty of excellent QB;'s stuck on lousy teams with lousy front offices. Stafford comes to mind. How many years of futility did he have? And he was one of the best qb's in the league over all that time.

Stafford is a good QB, but not at the level I am referring. For whatever reason Stafford has played to the level of the players around him. I saw him play in Foxboro during the Patriots run, and he was slightly above average. That's not what true top 5 QB's do. I expect Maye to have a better career than Stafford.

But that's one. Maybe. List your top QB's of all time, and how may played for losing teams? Who is the best QB who played for a losing team? Might even be Stafford.

 

[Wozzy]

Zach Cunningham
Germaine Pratt
Willie Gay Jr
all fit, are affordable, and would be handed nothing other than a chance to compete
best player plays.

Zach Cunningham will be 32 years old and was healthy enough to play 7 and 4 games the last two seasons.

Pratt is 30 and was released by two teams in the same season before catching on with the Colts last season… they let him walk citing the need to get “younger and faster.” Sound familiar?

Willie Gay has been an outright bust… he has never been good or lived up to his draft hype and has been called lazy. He admitted himself to checking out last season as a backup.

Also neither Pratt nor Gay are scheme fits for Vrabel as big mike LB’ers. He wants small fast guys.

Are we just throwing money into the fire pit now… oh yeah, the cap doesn’t exist and guys like Gonzo and Drake won’t need to get paid.

Muma still has a role on ST, with the opportunity to show growth on D.
again, I hope Muma is the next Vrabel. but thinking him as option #1 in case of injury is not my preference, until he proves/earns that role.
so far in his career, he never has.

Muma is only entering year 5 and is already an exceptional special teams player. That’s exactly what you want from a backup ILB.

 

[rkarp1]

Zach Cunningham will be 32 years old and was healthy enough to play 7 and 4 games the last two seasons.

Pratt is 30 and was released by two teams in the same season before catching on with the Colts last season… they let him walk citing the need to get “younger and faster.” Sound familiar?

Willie Gay has been an outright bust… he has never been good or lived up to his draft hype and has been called lazy. He admitted himself to checking out last season as a backup.

Also neither Pratt nor Gay are scheme fits for Vrabel as big mike LB’ers. He wants small fast guys.

Are we just throwing money into the fire pit now… oh yeah, the cap doesn’t exist and guys like Gonzo and Drake won’t need to get paid.

Muma is only entering year 5 and is already an exceptional special teams player. That’s exactly what you want from a backup ILB.

Muma released by 2 teams. Wozzy says Muma is great
Pratt released by 2 teams. Wozzy says he sucks

reminder to self. don't listen to Wozzy

 

[Thelonious]

Stafford is a good QB, but not at the level I am referring. For whatever reason Stafford has played to the level of the players around him. I saw him play in Foxboro during the Patriots run, and he was slightly above average. That's not what true top 5 QB's do. I expect Maye to have a better career than Stafford.

But that's one. Maybe. List your top QB's of all time, and how may played for losing teams? Who is the best QB who played for a losing team? Might even be Stafford.

Some of them bask in the glory of the excellent teams around them, of course. But this is all beside the point. Your assertion that "a great QB is sufficient for success" is simply nonsense. It is almost certainly the single most important factor in a team's success, but your assertion that it is the only requirement for a team's success, that it is entirely sufficient to assure success, is simply nonsense.I t isn't. I suppose I could imagine a more nuanced version of your view with which I might agree, but stated as categorically as it is in the above quote, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Wozzy]

Muma released by 2 teams. Wozzy says Muma is great
Pratt released by 2 teams. Wozzy says he sucks

reminder to self. don't listen to Wozzy

Muma is a kid in relation to Pratt, his career is beginning while Pratt’s is nearing the end.

Pratt isn’t even a scheme fit and his coach last year implied he was slow saying they wanted to get “faster.”

Wisdom is chasing you, but you’ve always been faster.

 

[rkarp1]

Muma is a kid in relation to Pratt, his career is beginning while Pratt’s is nearing the end.

Pratt isn’t even a scheme fit and his coach last year implied he was slow saying they wanted to get “faster.”

Wisdom is chasing you, but you’ve always been faster.

you would be wise to see how the summer plays out
you are usually wrong every time

 

[Wozzy]

you would be wise to see how the summer plays out
you are usually wrong every time

Just like you and PFF telling me Okorafor, Leverett and Jordan were “good” OLine signings in 2024 while I argued they weren’t?

That kind of “wrong?”

I didn’t promise you anything on Muma, I specifically said “Muma, Obiazor, Jacobs and Gainer is a marked improvement in youthful athleticism alone” and they should have no problem finding two backups.

Much like with the 2024 OLine, time eventually reveals all.

 

[Family]

Some of them bask in the glory of the excellent teams around them, of course. But this is all beside the point. Your assertion that "a great QB is sufficient for success" is simply nonsense. It is almost certainly the single most important factor in a team's success, but your assertion that it is the only requirement for a team's success, that it is entirely sufficient to assure success, is simply nonsense.I t isn't. I suppose I could imagine a more nuanced version of your view with which I might agree, but stated as categorically as it is in the above quote, it just doesn't make sense.

I don't understand what you're saying. Literally every considered great QB has won.

Someone could say "wait Sonny Juergensen", so maybe ok back there. And you mentioned Stafford, who I think checked out years before. I was at the game where he casually stepped out two yards short on 4th down, instead of diving out of bounds for the first. That's not a great.

You could put Josh Allen on 25 teams in the league, and they're contenders, and maybe more. Joe Burrow even got the Bengals into the Super Bowl.

Each year I look at the finish in each division, and can literally go top to bottom, and in over 50% of the divisions, whatever the QB ranked, the team finished.

Yeah if you completely screw up, you can cut Johnny Unitas, but if you can't have some success with a great QB, you are one of the exceptions.

 

[mgteich]

I think Britt is pretty good against the run, and in Tampa showed he can play a good amount of defensive snaps and ST snaps.
I have to think as the roster currently sits, he is a roster lock.
the other 4 are unknowns with some potential upside.
I love the fact that they are getting a shot.

but this team went to the SB last year. they are well positioned against the cap. their staff has far reaching connections to lots of players. they can also offer the opportunity to come in and play at ILB.

it seems like a good situation for a vet that knows Vrabel or Williams (or Kuhr)

I also expect Britt to make the team. He is a solid STer, and yes, a couple of years ago he did have one year with significant defensive snaps.

So: Spillane, Ellis, Muma, Britt
about the same quality as last year.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The rebuild is never complete and no team in the NFL is "deep". The Pats went on a 9 year drought from 2005-2013 because they had holes in their rosters over the years.

This current Pats team has a major weakness along the OL which could absolutely derail their season. Run defense at both edges is the other. Ellis next to Spillane is the last. He will be dependent on Spillane staying healthy. I'd prefer the Pats bring in a veteran for at least early downs.

Talking about fringe practice squad players is the wrong conversation to be having when we should be discussing their actual starters.

 

[Thelonious]

I don't understand what you're saying. Literally every considered great QB has won.

Someone could say "wait Sonny Juergensen", so maybe ok back there. And you mentioned Stafford, who I think checked out years before. I was at the game where he casually stepped out two yards short on 4th down, instead of diving out of bounds for the first. That's not a great.

You could put Josh Allen on 25 teams in the league, and they're contenders, and maybe more. Joe Burrow even got the Bengals into the Super Bowl.

Each year I look at the finish in each division, and can literally go top to bottom, and in over 50% of the divisions, whatever the QB ranked, the team finished.

Yeah if you completely screw up, you can cut Johnny Unitas, but if you can't have some success with a great QB, you are one of the exceptions.

I guess I have nothing further to say. I simply reject the idea that with the right QB, the rest of the team does not matter. Makes no sense to me at all. As I have said, perhaps a more moderately articulated version of your view would make sense, but so long as you insist on the ""a great QB is sufficient for success" formulation," there is no chance of my agreeing with you. Imagine if you will a GM who acted on that basis ("I got you your QB; my work is done. I'm off to Bimini."): he'd be fired - justifiably- on the spot.

 

[patfanken]

Now I guess is the time to trot out some of my own favorite adages that seem appropriate now.

"There is NO other team game that exists where the success of every other individual player is so dependent on every other player" And that INCLUDES the QB. I am constantly amazed by some of the amazing catches that occur over the course of games that makes one wonder how it was even possible. Then there are the throws that are fit into windows so tight that you wonder why he even threw it. In the end they all wind up as successful plays where we assume it was a good throw and a solid catch.

Sometimes I don't think we any longer consider just how many individual successes there has to be in order for there to be a successful play in the game of offensive football. These guys are THAT good. We should never lose that awe as fans

We should NEVER forget, "that for every dollar you give one guy on the team, there is one less dollar of everyone else". I am waiting long and hard, as we explode past the $50MM/yr mark, for some player who is reminded by the fact of adage #1 that there is a point where SO much becomes TOO much. I would LOVE to see Drake Maye say to the Pats, there is nothing I can't buy on $40MM/year. Just give me that and I'm good. As long as you take that $20MM and spend it on my teammates each year of my contract. He gets a better roster, the Pats get a closer more competitive team, and the Pats are contractually liable to stay within $15MM or so of the salary cap. Who says it has to be the way it is, with every other individual player is competing against their teammates for a piece of the same pie. This is at a time where a smart guy like Gronk has yet to cash an NFL check (Proverbially)

Well feed on these. We have 3 more weeks of this dead spell.

 

[rkarp1]

I also expect Britt to make the team. He is a solid STer, and yes, a couple of years ago he did have one year with significant defensive snaps.

So: Spillane, Ellis, Muma, Britt
about the same quality as last year.

my concern is if Spillane or Ellis go down for a spell, neither Britt nor Muma has shown the level of play needed to hold down the fort for a bit.

I also expect Britt to make the team. He is a solid STer, and yes, a couple of years ago he did have one year with significant defensive snaps.

So: Spillane, Ellis, Muma, Britt
about the same quality as last year.