What is our plan for ILB?

[Real fan 02]

If Spillane is your best linebacker, you need more linebackers.

I get they don't seem to value the position much, and that's a choice, and makes sense in the scheme, but I just see them getting eaten alive by checkdown merchants.

The strength of our D is the Defensive line and the secondary.. Spillane is a great leader, general of the defense. LB's are the clean up guys.. while I wish we could have a Fred Warner those as those types of guys are generational talents.. I'm sure Vrabel knows he needs a little more at LB although the guys we have
now are solid.

 

[mgteich]

It's tough to say.. because we truly never know what a coach is thinking. Guys go down, injuries, retirement, ect, ect..so now is the roster elevation time.. post draft- to training camp.

I like Gregory. We have a handful of guys that csn fulfill Tonga role. Vrabel has a 90 man roster to evaluate over the the next 3 months..

Please list all our roster players over 320, about the right weight for Tonga's NT role.

I do believe that Gregory will ask to gain some weight from his current 319.

 

[Wozzy]

If Spillane is your best linebacker, you need more linebackers.

I get they don't seem to value the position much, and that's a choice, and makes sense in the scheme, but I just see them getting eaten alive by checkdown merchants.

I don’t get how they can have terrible players and be one of the top units in the league. It’s an enigma.

 

[DaBruinz]

Judging from comments here people are really really concerned about a defense that for 3/4"s of the regular season ranked #1 in run defense and yards per carry and it's a real concern. When Spillane and all the defensive front players were healthy, this was the best run defense in the NFL.

And people here keep suggesting Ellis and Spillane weren't good in coverage. Be more specific... when Ellis was in man coverage on TE's, he was great at it. But team zone coverages were crap because they were often out of spot or in the wrong zone entirely. This was true in the backfield also, where we had arguably the best CB trio in the league.

Yes. Elliss was so great that opposing QBs were 37 for 42 for an 88.1% completion rate. Spillane was marginally better at 63 of 74..

NEITHER is good in the passing game.

Feel free to go game by game and point out all the times they were in Man Coverage and what the results were.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thank you for posting this. It shows what I said. So many completed passes and 1st downs allowed. So many stops after 5+ yards.

Many people made silly evaluations last year when this team was coming off a disappointing 4 win season… like “Ellis is bad.”

Now it’s easier I guess to double down on a dumb take than admit they were wrong when he was a starter on one of the best defenses in the NFL and in the postseason.

Go and watch the video. A player can be BAD and still make plays. Hence, Ellis allowing 88% completions and not stopping many behind the LOS. Hitting many of the wrong holes against the run while OTHER players actually make the plays. Look at the video. Look at all the plays made well beyond the LOS.

 

[Wozzy]

Thank you for posting this. It shows what I said. So many completed passes and 1st downs allowed. So many stops after 5+ yards.


Go and watch the video. A player can be BAD and still make plays. Hence, Ellis allowing 88% completions and not stopping many behind the LOS. Hitting many of the wrong holes against the run while OTHER players actually make the plays. Look at the video. Look at all the plays made well beyond the LOS.

The Patriots D ended the season 9th in points allowed. Prior to the spate of injuries in the final quarter of the season they were ranging between 2nd and 4th in points allowed.

In the playoffs they reverted back to one of the best defenses in the NFL, they led the postseason in points allowed, sacks, forced turnovers and 2nd fewest yards…. per game.

This despite carrying an offense that stunk the joint up, 11th worst PPG, tied for first in turnovers… crap.

So your notion that one of the best defenses in the NFL was doing this despite starting LB Ellis being terrible, and your evidence for this is something only you can see on video highlights, is a laugh riot.

 

[rkarp1]

I don’t get how they can have terrible players and be one of the top units in the league. It’s an enigma.

no one said the LB's were terrible
the LB group is thin

last year the unit was very good, but they then lost Gibbons, Tavai, Jennings and Mapu. that's a lot of snaps/tackles/pressures that left the group. the new players may or may not work out.

 

[Wozzy]

no one said the LB's were terrible
the LB group is thin

last year the unit was very good, but they then lost Gibbons, Tavai, Jennings and Mapu. that's a lot of snaps/tackles/pressures that left the group. the new players may or may not work out.

Stop inserting yourself in conversations if you can’t be bothered to read the lead up. Somebody is saying Ellis sucks.

 

[rkarp1]

Stop inserting yourself in conversations if you can’t be bothered to read the lead up. Somebody is saying Ellis sucks.

I was commenting on your "one of the top units in the league" mention.
last year, they were. this year, 4 players are no longer on the team from that top unit.
regardless if Ellis is good or bad, that last years top unit is now missing 4 of the 6 players

 

[mgteich]

no one said the LB's were terrible
the LB group is thin

last year the unit was very good, but they then lost Gibbons, Tavai, Jennings and Mapu. that's a lot of snaps/tackles/pressures that left the group. the new players may or may not work out.

you say thin. I understand. Perhaps Vrabel simply disagrees.

From an earlier post

The team apparently has its Spillane and Ellis
and its backups in Hill and Muma
and perhaps in its ST/backup in Obiazor
and we also picked up Luketa
=========================
Vrabel has 5 ILB and I don't him signing more.

Luketa is a longshot. Also, the so-called OLB's may also be called upon to play a few reps inside if there is an injury.

 

[rkarp1]

you say thin. I understand. Perhaps Vrabel simply disagrees.

From an earlier post

The team apparently has its Spillane and Ellis
and its backups in Hill and Muma
and perhaps in its ST/backup in Obiazor
and we also picked up Luketa
=========================
Vrabel has 5 ILB and I don't him signing more.

Luketa is a longshot. Also, the so-called OLB's may also be called upon to play a few reps inside if there is an injury.

perhaps Vrabel does
perhaps additional moves are coming?
clearly they targeted Hill early, and gave him pretty good money
Muma imo is not even a roster lock. could not get on the field last year. no guaranteed money owed.
Obiazor is an unknown.

again, I am saying "thin", not "bad"

 

[Real fan 02]

perhaps Vrabel does
perhaps additional moves are coming?
clearly they targeted Hill early, and gave him pretty good money
Muma imo is not even a roster lock. could not get on the field last year. no guaranteed money owed.
Obiazor is an unknown.

again, I am saying "thin", not "bad"

Agreed. Think we also have to take a nig Picture look and remember that this is year 2. Vrabel's still turning over the roster, draft picks, FAs ect. The roster is better than it was last season in many ways post draft. Now it's about guys taking roles in camp and filling out depth. We have 90 guys to evaluate from now until camp cut downs...

 

[Gumby]

I always assumed the defense the team wanted to play in "base" incorporated 3 S's.
Byard, Woodson and who?
I believe Obiazor is a converted S. do we see more Pettus?

Really like Pettus and I believe he factors into things. But Obiazor your correct was a former safety and can play all-over the formation.. he's a better version of Mapu and has a bigger build and had a relentless motor.. he projects to be playing alot this season especially when we play pass heavy offenses.

Ok IIRC he was a "Converted" HIGH SCHOOL safety, maybe he played freshman year college in the secondary. But I believe he has been a LB for a while (?entirely?) through his college career.

His previous experience maybe gives him some spatial perception benefits for play diagnosis, but I dont think he has the physical set to go be a Harrison type S / Star or whatever they call it now. And I dont think anyone on Pats coaching staff is talking that as a possiblity. Further, I thought the stats i saw posted here showed him as strong on run but weak on pass coverage. So any previous experience didnt play out to provide his college teams with any safety-type benefits.

 

[rkarp1]

Ok IIRC he was a "Converted" HIGH SCHOOL safety, maybe he played freshman year college in the secondary. But I believe he has been a LB for a while (?entirely?) through his college career.

His previous experience maybe gives him some spatial perception benefits for play diagnosis, but I dont think he has the physical set to go be a Harrison type S / Star or whatever they call it now. And I dont think anyone on Pats coaching staff is talking that as a possiblity. Further, I thought the stats i saw posted here showed him as strong on run but weak on pass coverage. So any previous experience didnt play out to provide his college teams with any safety-type benefits.

• Junior College: During his two seasons at Iowa Western Community College (2020–2021), he played at the safety position.
• TCU: When he first transferred to Texas Christian University in 2022, he played as a nickel safety before switching to linebacker in 2023. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Patriots drafted the TCU standout specifically as a linebacker, valuing his "safety-to-linebacker" versatility and athleticism

 

[Gumby]

• Junior College: During his two seasons at Iowa Western Community College (2020–2021), he played at the safety position.
• TCU: When he first transferred to Texas Christian University in 2022, he played as a nickel safety before switching to linebacker in 2023. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Patriots drafted the TCU standout specifically as a linebacker, valuing his "safety-to-linebacker" versatility and athleticism

Thanks for correction.
Still 2 years back & only JuCo level as I think you can’t really count 2023 if he just showed up/was recruited as a nickel and was then switched on arrival. But we can be generous and assume he played a couple snaps or at least practiced some as a nickel at true college level in 23.

I suspect you are throwing the word „versatility“ in there and not quoting the pats. IMO they value his safety-to-linebacker“ EXPERIENCE.
…..if he never actually STARTED at true college level in the backfield, I would hesitate to call that versatility.

 

[rkarp1]

Thanks for correction.
Still 2 years back & only JuCo level as I think you can’t really count 2023 if he just showed up/was recruited as a nickel and was then switched on arrival. But we can be generous and assume he played a couple snaps or at least practiced some as a nickel at true college level in 23.

I suspect you are throwing the word „versatility“ in there and not quoting the pats. IMO they value his safety-to-linebacker“ EXPERIENCE.
…..if he never actually STARTED at true college level in the backfield, I would hesitate to call that versatility.

I think he is a very athletic player with very good speed
I thought players like him were what the team wanted last year, but we saw players like Tavai, Jennings and even Mapu get lots of snaps (out of necessity maybe?)
perhaps Obiazor gets it quickly, and is on the field on certain downs and yards to go. perhaps he is huge on ST.
but...until we know, we don't know. thats why I said "thin" (note to Wozzy: I did not say "bad")

 

[Raccoonsuit]

Not a fan of Spillane at all. Nor Ellis. At least Ellis doesnt cost a lot. Big oversight by the front office as they decided the draft was for plugging a few holes but leaving others bare.

By far the worse unit on the pats. **** converting safeties, I'm over that **** especially for mlb. Sorry but Spillane can't cover anything and just stopping the run doesnt cut it for me at linebacker.

Big time hole on this team

 

[Thelonious]

Either some new guy will rise to the occasion, or you get some old guy, and try again next year. I like Spillane a lot. I think he'll be good at least for another year. If ILB turns out to be a soft spot, it'll be interesting to watch them scheme around that, which I guess is the silver lining.

Raccoonsuit: "**** converting safeties."

I would choose not to "**** converted safeties" nor even unconverted ones, but to each his own.

 

[Wozzy]

I was commenting on your "one of the top units in the league" mention.
last year, they were. this year, 4 players are no longer on the team from that top unit.
regardless if Ellis is good or bad, that last years top unit is now missing 4 of the 6 players

You specifically said “nobody said” something when somebody had. Per usual, in your rush to disagree with Wozzy, you couldn’t even be bothered to read the conversation being had.

What “top guys” from the LB group did they lose? Those weren’t top guys, they were lesser players potentially much improved upon.

Last year: Spillane, Ellis, Gibbens, Tavai and Mapu who barely played defense.

Versus

This Year: Spillane, Ellis, Muma, Obiazor, Declan Williams, Britt

How are they thin unless both rookies suck outright? They could find some value vet after camp cutdowns. This unit simply needs to stay healthy and develop a young guy.

 

[Wozzy]

Either some new guy will rise to the occasion, or you get some old guy, and try again next year. I like Spillane a lot. I think he'll be good at least for another year. If ILB turns out to be a soft spot, it'll be interesting to watch them scheme around that, which I guess is the silver lining.

Raccoonsuit: "**** converting safeties."

I would choose not to "**** converted safeties" nor even unconverted ones, but to each his own.

Vrabel's not going to abandon his defensive philosophy just because some fans don't like undersized WILL LB'ers playing primarily in the middle. WILL LB'ers and Strong Safeties are nearly identical in many cases. So I don't see the problem.