X's & O's Seahawks had a tell on Patriots offense in Super Bowl, defender claims

[stephens44]

Its storylines like this that really make me wonder... In the military I work in information warfare and I used to be a tactical deception planner. As the old adage goes, "all warfare is based on deception" and in info warfare it's about managing perceptions. So how does something this elementary go unnoticed and then exploited by the adversary??? W T F... If anything, you set up false tells until you know they're seeing AND reacting to it, then you leverage it against them (deception 101). The Pats organization really needs to have competent analysts like the military has Intelligence analysts that focus on "Red Teaming". They inspect the most minute flaws of schemes, players, plays, etc. for weaknesses and flaws that can be exploited. I know the Pats have people doing this to look at their opponents, but who's looking at the Pats for quality control? They just got beat up on the biggest stage and they were undone by basic issues. Where was Doug Marrone in this??? It's his job to ensure that his guys are well prepared, well disciplined, etc.
Then there's Campbell's needed development with technique, where was Marrone on that issue: Why did Will Campbell struggle in Super Bowl 60? NFL O-linemen weigh in

 

[farn]

They could tell our left side wasn’t going to hold up. That was enough.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Its storylines like this that really make me wonder... In the military I work in information warfare and I used to be a tactical deception planner. As the old adage goes, "all warfare is based on deception" and in info warfare it's about managing perceptions. So how does something this elementary go unnoticed and then exploited by the adversary??? W T F... If anything, you set up false tells until you know they're seeing AND reacting to it, then you leverage it against them (deception 101). The Pats organization really needs to have competent analysts like the military has Intelligence analysts that focus on "Red Teaming". They inspect the most minute flaws of schemes, players, plays, etc. for weaknesses and flaws that can be exploited. I know the Pats have people doing this to look at their opponents, but who's looking at the Pats for quality control? They just got beat up on the biggest stage and they were undone by basic issues. Where was Doug Marrone in this??? It's his job to ensure that his guys are well prepared, well disciplined, etc.
Then there's Campbell's needed development with technique, where was Marrone on that issue: Why did Will Campbell struggle in Super Bowl 60? NFL O-linemen weigh in

Vrabs though fantastic goes by feel for the most part and also what his gut tells him. Listening to parts of his pre Super Bowl pitch, it was all about “ I can’t wait to see you perform “ etc. The Seahawks spent their time in the darks arts of the Art of War. We were not prepared for an opponent who had studied us. Principal number 2. Know the enemy and know yourself. We lacked self assessment and misjudged their strengths and weaknesses. We had no way to adapt to game conditions. Those three and out after the first half were the most telling.
Though I can’t say what I do in real life, my area matched very well with BB and his affinity for the Art of War principles. I was shocked Spillane told the whole world he was starting. You should never do that. Hopefully Vrabs learns but he got my antenna raised with his declaration that Campbell is the left tackle. That tells me he is keeping to his gut again, instead of continuing with constant evaluation.

 

[ViperGTS]

Vrabs though fantastic goes by feel for the most part and also what his gut tells him. Listening to parts of his pre Super Bowl pitch, it was all about “ I can’t wait to see you perform “ etc. The Seahawks spent their time in the darks arts of the Art of War. We were not prepared for an opponent who had studied us. Principal number 2. Know the enemy and know yourself. We lacked self assessment and misjudged their strengths and weaknesses. We had no way to adapt to game conditions. Those three and out after the first half were the most telling.
Though I can’t say what I do in real life, my area matched very well with BB and his affinity for the Art of War principles. I was shocked Spillane told the whole world he was starting. You should never do that. Hopefully Vrabs learns but he got my antenna raised with his declaration that Campbell is the left tackle. That tells me he is keeping to his gut again, instead of continuing with constant evaluation.

Yeah I have been thinking that a bit myself. You need to attack your own team and grind into the smallest details to see where you can trip up another team or they can trip you up.

Hopefully they learn, but Josh's performance was the most concerning to me. My Dad always said, just because they get paid a lot of money, doesn't make them really smart.

 

[p8ryts]

Yeah I have been thinking that a bit myself. You need to attack your own team and grind into the smallest details to see where you can trip up another team or they can trip you up.

Hopefully they learn, but Josh's performance was the most concerning to me. My Dad always said, just because they get paid a lot of money, doesn't make them really smart.

They should have hired BB as a consultant for the game planning.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Vrabel was asked about this today and in as many words dismissed it as B.S.

The Seahawks coaches found something in their film study and they are not about to share what they saw.

That's good coaching on their part.

 

[n1997y]

The Seahawks coaches found something in their film study and they are not about to share what they saw.

That's good coaching on their part.

Noise. Chaff. Making themselves look good.

The reports in the beginning of this thread conflate different kids of analysis, and seem to call tendencies “tells” which is not consistent with accepted usage.

They found a bunch of different things in their film study. They may have found some true tells but if they did they wouldn’t specify what they are. They also figured out a lot of tendencies that could be useful, like Josh’s penchant for first down runs up the gut for min8mal gain lol.

If there are true tells to be found we should be finding them during self scouting. That should be routine. If it’s not we need to improve that omission.

Wasn’t that part of what Ernie Adams did?

 

[n1997y]

Yeah I have been thinking that a bit myself. You need to attack your own team and grind into the smallest details to see where you can trip up another team or they can trip you up.

Hopefully they learn, but Josh's performance was the most concerning to me. My Dad always said, just because they get paid a lot of money, doesn't make them really smart.

Yes, you need to put yourself into your adversary’s perspective and look at how you’ll attack yourself.

The success of Seattle’s defense shows that Josh and his staff did not do this, at least not effectively.

 

[Tunescribe]

The Seahawks coaches found something in their film study and they are not about to share what they saw.

That's good coaching on their part.

No. There was no great strategic advantage favoring Seattle via a "tell" from film study. The Seahawks won on superior player talent and physicality. The Patriots were overpowered where most vulnerable.

 

[n1997y]

No. There was no great strategic advantage favoring Seattle via a "tell" from film study. The Seahawks won on superior player talent and physicality. The Patriots were overpowered where most vulnerable.

You left out greatly superior game planning and execution.

 

[Tunescribe]

Noise. Chaff. Making themselves look good.

The reports in the beginning of this thread conflate different kids of analysis, and seem to call tendencies “tells” which is not consistent with accepted usage.

They found a bunch of different things in their film study. They may have found some true tells but if they did they wouldn’t specify what they are. They also figured out a lot of tendencies that could be useful, like Josh’s penchant for first down runs up the gut for min8mal gain lol.

If there are true tells to be found we should be finding them during self scouting. That should be routine. If it’s not we need to improve that omission.

Wasn’t that part of what Ernie Adams did?

Correct. "Tells" might offer a slight advantage if opponents are evenly matched at every level.

You left out greatly superior game planning and execution.

I don't think Seattle had superior game planning, especially offensively. Darnold didn't play well and came damn close to delivering game-changing turnovers. The Patriot offense simply was outmanned/limited tactically by the Seahawk defense PLUS lack of experience in McDaniels' system at OL/QB/receiver.

 

[n1997y]

I don't think Seattle had superior game planning, especially offensively. Darnold didn't play well and came damn close to delivering game-changing turnovers. The Patriot offense simply were outmanned/limited tactically by the Seahawk defense PLUS lack of experience in McDaniels' system at OL/QB/receiver.

Agree, in fact think that the matchup of Seattle offense against Patriots defense was actually won by New England.

Disagree on Seattle defense against Patriots offense. Seattle’s pass rush attacked the New England pass pro in ways that NE was unprepared for and did not successfully handle. Nor were NE adjustments effective.

That wasn’t because they were outmanned. It wasn’t inexperience. It was not having a protection scheme ready for Seattle to blitz the way they did. That’s where Seattle had superior game planning. They blitzed at a 33% rate in the first half, much more than their 20% season average, and the Patriots were taken off guard, they were not prepared to handle it. Then in the second half the Seattle blitz rate dropped to under 10% because they had New England off balance and out of their game. Seattle totally outcoached the Patriots offensive coaching staff.

 

[Tunescribe]

Disagree on Seattle defense against Patriots offense. Seattle’s pass rush attacked the New England pass pro in ways that NE was unprepared for and did not successfully handle. Nor were NE adjustments effective.

That wasn’t because they were outmanned. It wasn’t inexperience. It was not having a protection scheme ready for Seattle to blitz the way they did. That’s where Seattle had superior game planning. They blitzed at a 33% rate in the first half, much more than their 20% season average, and the Patriots were taken off guard, they were not prepared to handle it. Then in the second half the Seattle blitz rate dropped to under 10% because they had New England off balance and out of their game. Seattle totally outcoached the Patriots offensive coaching staff.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. You can know what's coming, try to adjust and still be unable to counteract it. The blitz was effective, yes, but the overriding problem was getting time to throw into tight coverage with the Seahawks rushing only four.

The vast majority of the pressure and sacks came from a four-man rush, with reports indicating five of the six sacks (and a 48-percent pressure rate) occurred when Seattle rushed four or fewer, often utilizing "simulated pressures" where they showed blitz but dropped defenders into coverage.

Inexperience was a huge factor -- Maye trying to process and Campbell/Wilson getting rag-dolled.

 

[ScottishPatriot]

If what they say is true, big time failure by the OL Coach and Josh's protection schemes.

Announce Stoutland!!!

 

[ViperGTS]

I expected so much more from McD. I really did. To not have adjustments or maybe the players don't understand the adjustments. If thats the case they need to go. I mean, Pop was pointing out the blitzes, than didn't run a hot route which he is supposed to. Thats the kind of **** any WR is taught in high school ball. Blitzes, if you have the QB and WRs on the same page is pretty easy to beat. Well maybe not easy but should have success. In fact Maye was really good against the blitz all year long. Something was broken on offense in the Denver game and the SB.

I dunno, failure on so many levels and regular season performance be damned they need a come to Jesus moment imo.

 

[Tunescribe]

I expected so much more from McD. I really did. To not have adjustments or maybe the players don't understand the adjustments. If thats the case they need to go. I mean, Pop was pointing out the blitzes, than didn't run a hot route which he is supposed to. Thats the kind of **** any WR is taught in high school ball. Blitzes, if you have the QB and WRs on the same page is pretty easy to beat. Well maybe not easy but should have success. In fact Maye was really good against the blitz all year long. Something was broken on offense in the Denver game and the SB.

I dunno, failure on so many levels and regular season performance be damned they need a come to Jesus moment imo.

People tend to want a scapegoat -- McDaniels is a prime target now, it seems -- but he had only so much to work with from standpoints of talent and experience. The Patriots punched above their weight class all season and overachieved. IMO this deserves more praise than fault-finding.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I expected so much more from McD. I really did. To not have adjustments or maybe the players don't understand the adjustments. If thats the case they need to go. I mean, Pop was pointing out the blitzes, than didn't run a hot route which he is supposed to. Thats the kind of **** any WR is taught in high school ball. Blitzes, if you have the QB and WRs on the same page is pretty easy to beat. Well maybe not easy but should have success. In fact Maye was really good against the blitz all year long. Something was broken on offense in the Denver game and the SB.

I dunno, failure on so many levels and regular season performance be damned they need a come to Jesus moment imo.

The narrative that McDaniels doesn't adjust seems to be floating around here lately. Let's take a look at his playoff games:

Starting with SB42, he technically called an offense that took the lead late in the 4th despite struggling all game. Had the defense closed the deal, we are never discussing this game ever again. Nobody cares what Spags did that game.

He didn't have answers for Baltimore in the 2012 AFCCG.

Didn't have any firepower against Denver in 2013.

Two years later, the Pats were down 14 to the Ravens twice. They came back and won.

They were down 10 in the Super Bowl to the Seahawks. They won.

Had a comeback against the Broncos in 2015. Had BB done the right thing and opted for the FG's rather than continually going for it on 4th down, the Pats most likely win the game.

Pats were down 28-3 to Atlanta in the Super Bowl. They won. This and the Seahawks game were his crowning achievements.

They were struggling badly against the Jags in 2017 and down 20-10 in the 4th. They won. This is a very underrated game. The Jags defense were legit and one of the rare defenses that were rattling the Pats.

He made adjustments in 2018 telling BB they flat can't pass the ball like they previously could and to rely on the ground game. The fell behind against KC and won. Two weeks later he calls a drive taking the lead at 10-3 late.

2019 game was just like Denver in 2013.

The correlation here is that he had the GOAT at QB which makes it difficult to grade an OC.

2021 game against the Bills was bringing knives to a gun fight.

2025 they found ways against both LA and Houston, but there was major concern. Denver was a weird game and the Pats probably aren't winning the game without Stidham's dumb pass attempt in his territory.

The Seahawks game was his worst game of his career. Way worse than SB42.

 

[Tunescribe]

The narrative that McDaniels doesn't adjust seems to be floating around here lately. Let's take a look at his playoff games:

Starting with SB42, he technically called an offense that took the lead late in the 4th despite struggling all game. Had the defense closed the deal, we are never discussing this game ever again. Nobody cares what Spags did that game.

He didn't have answers for Baltimore in the 2012 AFCCG.

Didn't have any firepower against Denver in 2013.

Two years later, the Pats were down 14 to the Ravens twice. They came back and won.

They were down 10 in the Super Bowl to the Seahawks. They won.

Had a comeback against the Broncos in 2015. Had BB done the right thing and opted for the FG's rather than continually going for it on 4th down, the Pats most likely win the game.

Pats were down 28-3 to Atlanta in the Super Bowl. They won. This and the Seahawks game were his crowning achievements.

They were struggling badly against the Jags in 2017 and down 20-10 in the 4th. They won. This is a very underrated game. The Jags defense were legit.

He made adjustments in 2018 telling BB they flat can't pass the ball like they previously could and to rely on the ground game. The fell behind against KC and won. Two weeks later he calls a drive taking the lead at 10-3 late.

2019 game was just like Denver in 2013.

The correlation here is that he had the GOAT at QB.

2021 game against the Bills was bringing knives to a gun fight.

2025 they found ways against both LA and Houston, but there was major concern. Denver was a weird game and the Pats probably aren't winning the game without Stidham's dumb pass attempt in his territory.

The Seahawks game was his worst game of his career. Way worse than SB42.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Different teams/personnel/staffs, different opponents, circumstances, levels of difficulty. Way too many variables over too long a period from which to draw anything meaningful.

 

[ViperGTS]

People tend to want a scapegoat -- McDaniels is a prime target now, it seems -- but he had only so much to work with from standpoints of talent and experience. The Patriots punched above their weight class all season and overachieved. IMO this deserves more praise than fault-finding.

The season is over. A hot wash of what happened and what needs to be corrected is now. Fault finding is the only way to improve and correct those mistakes. If you don't do that, you will never get better.

 

[VrabelJr]

People tend to want a scapegoat -- McDaniels is a prime target now, it seems -- but he had only so much to work with from standpoints of talent and experience. The Patriots punched above their weight class all season and overachieved. IMO this deserves more praise than fault-finding.

We have short memories. It was only 2 months ago that offense was our crown jewel and many here pondered if the defense was championship caliber.