How good has Barmore been this year?

[Gumby]

me: Re: long term. I think he still has potential to be back at 2023 form and we should not give up too quick…….

Some people around here just like to try and start fights over less than nothing/ wording…

Case in point

OK, so the issue is NOT Barmore's value as a DT?

Ignore the first sentence, I’ll ignore fur5her responses….we’re even.

 

[rkarp1]

Barmore has played 65% of the defensive snaps this season
with Williams on the field, Barmore is often double teamed
with Williams out, Barmore is always double teamed.
when the group was healthy the first half of the season, the run defense was very, very good. Barmore was a big part of that.
we also see in his pressure/hurries numbers, he can create pressure.
at the interior DL positions, I am an advocate of less is more. Barmore in my opinion would be a better player with his defensive snap totals on the season at 45-55%.
I love the idea of Williams and Barmore as the anchors for a great DL, with Tonga retained, Farmer developed and Durden kept for vet depth.
of course, Barmore has to be a good citizen. his off the field issues need to go away. time to mature.

 

[Real fan 02]

Vince was awesome! He played the most difficult position in Bill's defense as a NT in a two gap 3-4. Many don't remember, but BB tried Seymour as NT as a rookie and it didn't go well as many thought it wouldn't. Once Bill quickly dictched that was when Seymour never looked back and the defense took off.

The difference between the two is that Barmore was supposed to be an up the field pass rushing DT while Vince Wilfork was a run stuffing NT in a traditional 2 gap 3-4. When Vince signed his deal, it was record setting for that time. Barmore's was in the top 10-15. As I've mentioned before, Barmore's number isn't that bad for one guy. However, they are paying two. There production just isn't there for either. Pats are eventually going to have to evaluate the amount of money tied up at that position and make a decision.

Wilfork signed to record deal

The New England Patriots have paid big money to their big man in the middle by inking nose tackle Vince Wilfork to a five-year, $40 million extension today, according to a league source.

www.espn.com

Spot on rain!!! You couldn't have summed it up better. As this is a one-gap. Although Barmore was drafted into a two-gap under bill. As you mentioned paying 40 million for two interior DL and not having the production is going to be problematic going forward.

As I've mentioned the contracts were handed out due to being last and cash spending, the NFLPA surveys, ect. Mixed in with 4-13 seasons. Barmore was coming off a great season and showed his dominance. That was they version of Barmore the team paid. The medical situation is absolutely not his fault. But as we've seen Andrews was never the same level of player when he returned either.

In a perfect world Barmore gets healthier during the offseason and gets through the legal situation. I say he's still here at through next season at his number 20M.

When i mentioned we should still add to the defensive line it wasn't to slight Barmore but I feel we can stand to add more.. this would allow the defensive front to be more impactful and the depth would be enhanced.

The comparison to Vince was Vince had to play on a 6 year deal and BB busted balls on his contract.. Vince shed double teams.. right now Barmore has trouble getting off single blocks.

This is the guy I miss.. I think this legal situation and scrutiny may have motivated him...

 

[Real fan 02]

Barmore has played 65% of the defensive snaps this season
with Williams on the field, Barmore is often double teamed
with Williams out, Barmore is always double teamed.
when the group was healthy the first half of the season, the run defense was very, very good. Barmore was a big part of that.
we also see in his pressure/hurries numbers, he can create pressure.
at the interior DL positions, I am an advocate of less is more. Barmore in my opinion would be a better player with his defensive snap totals on the season at 45-55%.
I love the idea of Williams and Barmore as the anchors for a great DL, with Tonga retained, Farmer developed and Durden kept for vet depth.
of course, Barmore has to be a good citizen. his off the field issues need to go away. time to mature.

 

[Real fan 02]

Re: long term. I think he still has potential to be back at 2023 form and we should not give up too quick. Trades can be made or him cut as late as [2026 season] Training Camp. There is room in a 90 man roster for him.

Re: now-past: Does anyone not give the thought that this was possibly distracting him? Accounts for lesser production.

-way back in TC /first 6 weeks we were all wondering about the Wed off that he got. Maybe it was Anger Mgmt. maybe it was Court mandated /lawyer-recommended ??? marital therapy? Or legal appointments?

Then mid season Wed-off stops. No requirement or did break a promise to Vrabes? Then end of season she files charges. Is there a trail of breadcrumbs here?

Hope for the best for him & team, but remain realist …. Sometimes folks are irrevocably self-destructive.

NFL players are professionals. Off the field contractually they expect to conduct themselves as such. That goes for every sports professional. The medical situation is absolutely positively not his fault.

He will likely be here throughout next season baring anything else off the field happening.

 

[Wozzy]

Christian Barmore | New England Patriots DI | NFL and PFF stats

NFL and PFF player stats for New England Patriots DI Christian Barmore on Pro Football Focus.

www.pff.com

I’m just looking at his PFF grade, and yeesh. His run defense grade is terrible. A 29.8 grade, ranked 129th out of 132 for DT’a. He is still a pretty effective pass rusher, 12th most pressures in the league from a DT.

Sometimes PFF has BS grades on certain guys (Gonzo), so this could be another case of that. They’re not one to take for gospel. But usually, extremely poor grades given on their part have some correlation.

I don’t want to lose the guy, but this tells me that losing him wouldn’t be the end of the world if we get Tonga/Milton back into the fold. Definitely not to the magnitude of losing Diggs. If they don’t return, that’s another story.

Until Milton Willams and Spillane got hurt the Patriots had arguably the best run defense in the entire NFL.

As it stands today they have given up the 8th fewest rushing yards in the NFL and Barmore has been an absolute force.

Further proof that PFF is horsesht… totally worthless.

 

[TommyD4207]

Until Milton Willams and Spillane got hurt the Patriots had arguably the best run defense in the entire NFL.

As it stands today they have given up the 8th fewest rushing yards in the NFL and Barmore has been an absolute force.

Further proof that PFF is horsesht… totally worthless.

PFF has Christian McCaffrey as the 16th-best RB in the NFL right now.

 

[Wozzy]

PFF has Christian McCaffrey as the 16th-best RB in the NFL right now.

Makes sense… CMC only has the second most total scrimmage yards and TD’s in the entire NFL.

PFF player grades are toilet paper… used toilet paper.

 

[Real fan 02]

Vince was awesome! He played the most difficult position in Bill's defense as a NT in a two gap 3-4. Many don't remember, but BB tried Seymour as NT as a rookie and it didn't go well as many thought it wouldn't. Once Bill quickly dictched that was when Seymour never looked back and the defense took off.

The difference between the two is that Barmore was supposed to be an up the field pass rushing DT while Vince Wilfork was a run stuffing NT in a traditional 2 gap 3-4. When Vince signed his deal, it was record setting for that time. Barmore's was in the top 10-15. As I've mentioned before, Barmore's number isn't that bad for one guy. However, they are paying two. There production just isn't there for either. Pats are eventually going to have to evaluate the amount of money tied up at that position and make a decision.

Wilfork signed to record deal

The New England Patriots have paid big money to their big man in the middle by inking nose tackle Vince Wilfork to a five-year, $40 million extension today, according to a league source.

www.espn.com

 

[Real fan 02]

Pats didn't have a lot of big contracts aside from Brady, so there was no excuse not to tie up Seymour. In fact, the biggest contracts were recently off the books such as Law and Milloy. Bill just did things a lot different when deciding whether to re-sign players and his formula was correct the majority of the time. The only players from 2000-2023 that had success after they left the Pats were Ty Law (one year), Asante Samuel, Akiem Hicks, Chandler Jones and Joe Thuney. It's debatable which players you would've wanted Bill to sign, but the consensus would probably be Hicks, Jones and Thuney.

Rain, If PFF had Barmore the highest rated DL then suddenly I'd think it would matter to some...

 

[TommyD4207]

Rain, If PFF had Barmore the highest rated DL then suddenly I'd think it would matter to some...

It would matter to the people who think PFF grades matter.

Again, Christian McCaffrey is the 16th best RB according to PFF.

Drake Maye is the 11th best QB, last I looked.

These are two of the top three candidates for MVP of the league.

 

[Wozzy]

Rain, If PFF had Barmore the highest rated DL then suddenly I'd think it would matter to some...

A more thoughtful question would be how could the DT playing the most snaps on his team be “bad at run defense” when they’re one of the best run defenses in the NFL statistically?

How does that work exactly…

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

A more thoughtful question would be how could the DT playing the most snaps on his team be “bad at run defense” when they’re one of the best run defenses in the NFL statistically?

How does that work exactly…

The run D has not been good since the Williams injury.
It's actually been quite bad.

 

[Wozzy]

The run D has not been good since the Williams injury.
It's actually been quite bad.

Williams, Spillane and Tonga… show me an example of a team losing three max snap players on their front that improves?

 

[Real fan 02]

It would matter to the people who think PFF grades matter.

Again, Christian McCaffrey is the 16th best RB according to PFF.

Drake Maye is the 11th best QB, last I looked.

These are two of the top three candidates for MVP of the league.

Both you and wozzy make compelling points.. I don't put to much stock into PFF anymore i tend to use more of the eye test. Prior to 1932 before the NFL started keeping stats that's what told the story. But I digress.

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

Williams, Spillane and Tonga… show me an example of a team losing three max snap players on their front that improves?

Oh I agree, they have been gutted by injuries to key run defenders.
I certainly don't expect Barmore, or the teams run numbers to get better in that case.
But when Williams went out, Tonga and Spillane were still playing.
It was the Willams injury that really hurt, and that's when the run D started to go downhill, and we still had Barmore/Tonga/Spillane.
We went from the #1 run D to the #8 without Williams.
Should that not tell us that Williams is the key to our run D?

 

[Real fan 02]

A more thoughtful question would be how could the DT playing the most snaps on his team be “bad at run defense” when they’re one of the best run defenses in the NFL statistically?

How does that work exactly…

Good question. We could use all kinds of metrics and cherry pick whatever narrative we want to sell. That is each and every player in the league who's playing enough snaps.

 

[TommyD4207]

Oh I agree, they have been gutted by injuries to key run defenders.
I certainly don't expect Barmore, or the teams run numbers to get better in that case.
But when Williams went out, Tonga and Spillane were still playing.
It was the Willams injury that really hurt, and that's when the run D started to go downhill, and we still had Barmore/Tonga/Spillane.
We went from the #1 run D to the #8 without Williams.
Should that not tell us that Williams is the key to our run D?

Of course he is. He's the highest paid player on the team, and one could argue the best player on the team.
Tonga's first injury was in the same game, and Spillane went out the game after that.

 

[Wozzy]

Oh I agree, they have been gutted by injuries to key run defenders.
I certainly don't expect Barmore, or the teams run numbers to get better in that case.
But when Williams went out, Tonga and Spillane were still playing.
It was the Willams injury that really hurt, and that's when the run D started to go downhill, and we still had Barmore/Tonga/Spillane.
We went from the #1 run D to the #8 without Williams.
Should that not tell us that Williams is the key to our run D?

No, it tells us those three are among the best defenders on the front and without them the defense as a whole suffers. Nobody plays in a vacuum in the ultimate team sport.

Spillane is the best interior linebacker on the team in terms of recognition, instincts and tackling. But smallish inside LB’er’s suffer without big nasty s in front of them to negate the first wave of big guys. Run blocking offensive linemen would easily wash Spillane away without the big guys in front of him.

Williams is the most impactful speed DT on the team but Barmore is the most impactful power player… they’re a tandem. Tonga does a lot of heavy lifting on short or running downs but he is replacing Williams inside not Barmore. Williams kicks outside to DE on short downs or comes off the field entirely.

It’s a group effort, the run defense suffered with injuries to all three guys. It doesn’t mean the last man standing in Barmore is “bad,” you don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Barmore is dominant, mercurial and now a distraction off the field, but make no mistake… one of this teams best players.

 

[Wozzy]

Good question. We could use all kinds of metrics and cherry pick whatever narrative we want to sell. That is each and every player in the league who's playing enough snaps.

Not on one of the best defenses in the NFL. Team success is individual player success.

You can’t “suck” as one of the most utilized starters on one of the best defenses in the NFL. That’s a contradiction.