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Kraft, not Belichick, was the problem

I was referring to your listing of Jimmy Garoppolo.

Garoppolo was never supposed to play immediately. Brady was only 37 years old. He was supposed to take over later the way Rodgers did for Favre. Brady left the Patriots at 42.

Here's the thing that many people leave out of this Brady-Belichick discussion. During the summer of 2019 Brady showed up on Jeff Ross's boat with the intention of joining the Miami Dolphins a year later.

This would've been kept a secret except for the surprise revelation by Brian Flores. There's more to the 2-year contract than meets the eye. Brady very well knew the obvious: the team was old and cap-strapped. 2019 was an incredibly frustrating season for Brady. We already knew he was really angry that they cut Antonio Brown. No surprise he spent the previous summer making inroads with the Patriots' archrival.
Yes, but the alienation of Brady started long before his 2019 interactions with the Phins. It was 2017 when Belichick blew the SB with the Butler benching, banning Alex Guerrero from the building,and not giving Brady 2 years after an MVP season. It was not getting 2 years after 2018. In 2019 they weren’t even speaking to each other. Brady knew by 2019 he was done in New England. Bill treated him like **** the last few years and he was moving on. This is something that’s been out there for a long time now, it’s not new.
 
Yes, but the alienation of Brady started long before his 2019 interactions with the Phins. It was 2017 when Belichick blew the SB with the Butler benching, banning Alex Guerrero from the building,and not giving Brady 2 years after an MVP season. It was not getting 2 years after 2018. In 2019 they weren’t even speaking to each other. Brady knew by 2019 he was done in New England. Bill treated him like **** the last few years and he was moving on. This is something that’s been out there for a long time now, it’s not new.
Blew the Super Bowl because of Butler. Uh-huh. Butler was worse than mediocre. Butler is not why they lost.

Guerrero was banned for players going to him and contradicting the coaches.

Also, Brady WAS OFFERED a 2 year deal. That's the deal that ran out in 2019. He wasn't offered a 2 year deal AFTER the 2019 season.

I'm just saying that fans sweep the footsy with the Phins under the rug. For me, I have more than a strong suspicion that (because of Brady even imagining playing for the Phins, OF ALL TEAMS) he had already moved on from the Patriots prior to Belichick not giving him a 2 year deal. I already wrote why I suspected this. #1 he knew the Patriots were old and were not capable of winning another Super Bowl. #2 he was incredibly frustrated during the 2019 season with the lack of weapons on the field. Edelman had torn his ACL. Amendola was gone. Hogan's cinderella story was over. N'Keal Harry was a rookie flop. We traded a 2nd rounder for Mo Sanu as we tried to keep Brady happy. We traded for Antonio Brown who was then promptly cut, and I'm sure Brady was livid about this (he did after all have the gjuy come live with his family AFTER this).

In the Dynasty, the only time Brady showed any anger or emotion toward Belichick was with mention of Guerrero. It was clear Brady was livid at Guerrero's banning. This more than anything got between the two of them and it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines. It not only showed up when Guerrero was banned in 2017, but again when Brady demanded Guerrero's reinstatement. The fact that Kraft demanded Belichick reinstate a guy that players listened to over the coaches had repercussions for the locker room. That much was evident when players weighed in on this situation in the Dynasty. As I said, even Amendola thought it was corrosive to the authority of the coaches. This from a guy that was in constant contract squabbles with Belichick.
 
Blew the Super Bowl because of Butler. Uh-huh. Butler was worse than mediocre. Butler is not why they lost.

Guerrero was banned for players going to him and contradicting the coaches.

Also, Brady WAS OFFERED a 2 year deal. That's the deal that ran out in 2019. He wasn't offered a 2 year deal AFTER the 2019 season.

I'm just saying that fans sweep the footsy with the Phins under the rug. For me, I have more than a strong suspicion that (because of Brady even imagining playing for the Phins, OF ALL TEAMS) he had already moved on from the Patriots prior to Belichick not giving him a 2 year deal. I already wrote why I suspected this. #1 he knew the Patriots were old and were not capable of winning another Super Bowl. #2 he was incredibly frustrated during the 2019 season with the lack of weapons on the field. Edelman had torn his ACL. Amendola was gone. Hogan's cinderella story was over. N'Keal Harry was a rookie flop. We traded a 2nd rounder for Mo Sanu as we tried to keep Brady happy. We traded for Antonio Brown who was then promptly cut, and I'm sure Brady was livid about this (he did after all have the gjuy come live with his family AFTER this).

In the Dynasty, the only time Brady showed any anger or emotion toward Belichick was with mention of Guerrero. It was clear Brady was livid at Guerrero's banning. This more than anything got between the two of them and it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines. It not only showed up when Guerrero was banned in 2017, but again when Brady demanded Guerrero's reinstatement. The fact that Kraft demanded Belichick reinstate a guy that players listened to over the coaches had repercussions for the locker room. That much was evident when players weighed in on this situation in the Dynasty. As I said, even Amendola thought it was corrosive to the authority of the coaches. This from a guy that was in constant contract squabbles with Belichick.
Really? It was a 2 year deal with only 1 year guaranteed. Brady wanted what Brees got (2 years guaranteed) and Belichick wouldn’t give it to him. Belichick blew it.
 
Really? It was a 2 year deal with only 1 year guaranteed. Brady wanted what Brees got (2 years guaranteed) and Belichick wouldn’t give it to him. Belichick blew it.
Are you referring to the contract signed in Spring of 2018?

Because Brady played through that contract. 2018 and 2019.

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. It was for 2 years.

Also, I'm confused about your point regarding Drew Brees. If we're talking about Brady negotiating a new deal in spring of 2018, the Brees contract of the prior year was a 1 year contract. Not 2 years.

The contract Brees signed at the same time as Brady for 2018 and 2019 was a 2-year contract with only half of it guaranteed. Not fully guaranteed.
 
Are you referring to the contract signed in Spring of 2018?

Because Brady played through that contract. 2018 and 2019.

I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. It was for 2 years.
Brady didn’t want to go year to year, which is what Belichick wanted. He wasn’t happy with his 2018 deal and he wasn’t happy with the negotiations before 2019.

"What I was told happened," Arnold said, was the Patriots told Tom Brady that all they can do is a one-year deal at less money than he made last year because of the $13.5 million that gets tacked onto the salary cap.

"Basically, (Belichick said), 'What we’re going to be able to do here, Tom, is a one-year deal, but it’s not going to be for as much money as you got last year.”
Considering Brady already was unhappy with his latest contract -- he was hoping for a two-year, $50 million deal last summer, Curran reported recently -- it seems unlikely the 42-year-old QB would go for Belichick's offer.

You can spin it however you want, but Belichick ****ed up the Brady situation royally. Kraft deserves some blame also for not making sure Tom retired a Patriot.
 
Brady didn’t want to go year to year, which is what Belichick wanted. He wasn’t happy with his 2018 deal and he wasn’t happy with the negotiations before 2019.

"What I was told happened," Arnold said, was the Patriots told Tom Brady that all they can do is a one-year deal at less money than he made last year because of the $13.5 million that gets tacked onto the salary cap.

"Basically, (Belichick said), 'What we’re going to be able to do here, Tom, is a one-year deal, but it’s not going to be for as much money as you got last year.”
Considering Brady already was unhappy with his latest contract -- he was hoping for a two-year, $50 million deal last summer, Curran reported recently -- it seems unlikely the 42-year-old QB would go for Belichick's offer.

You can spin it however you want, but Belichick ****ed up the Brady situation royally. Kraft deserves some blame also for not making sure Tom retired a Patriot.
I'm not spinning it at all.

I'm saying he played under this contract for 2 years so it couldn't be a one year.

You also didn't address what I wrote about Brees.

And beyond that, you're so sure Brady wanted to retire a Patriot and yet he showed up on Ross's boat. The guy wanted to play for the Patriots archrival?!?!?!
 
The Dynasty documentary came off as a hit piece on Belichick and it changed the way I looked at the Krafts.

There's no way things should have ended up this way and the blame goes from the top down.
 
And beyond that, you're so sure Brady wanted to retire a Patriot and yet he showed up on Ross's boat. The guy wanted to play for the Patriots archrival?!?!?!
You seem to ignore that he tried for 2 years to get a guaranteed 2 year deal with the Patriots and Bill wouldn’t give it to him. He showed up on Ross’s boat when he knew Bill wasn’t give him security. Once again, Bill ****ed it up.
 
Did Kraft do this too??
 
You seem to ignore that he tried for 2 years to get a guaranteed 2 year deal with the Patriots and Bill wouldn’t give it to him. He showed up on Ross’s boat when he knew Bill wasn’t give him security. Once again, Bill ****ed it up.
Your timeline is off. He showed up on the boat BEFORE the last negotiation. He had a 2 year deal WHILE he as on that boat.
 
#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
He absolutely would've fired BB had Brady not played well and the Pats continued to lose missing the playoffs. People don't seem to remember why BB was brought in as many still considered them a top AFC team. I did have a bad feeling it was going to backfire when BB let veterans go such as Jefferson, Coates, Armstrong, Slade and others without viable replacements. Two losing seasons worse than Carroll would be enough for Kraft to pull the plug.
#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
It's classless for an Owner to throw the HC under the bus publicly like that. Kraft was a turd during that situation and Brady's deflate gate.
#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
This is where I side with Kraft. BB wasted a 3rd round pick in 2008 on Kevin O'Connell when Brady just had a record breaking season. They had a major needs at OL, LB, and DB. Taking a QB that high was idiotic. Fast forward to 2014. Brady dragged that awful team to the AFCCG in 2013 and put up a decent fight against the record breaking Denver Broncos. Brady needed help and blowing a 2nd rounder on a QB was completely unnecessary.
#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
I can see why. Players like Brady and Gronk were pretty pissed after the game. However, as I mentioned on this board before, they should've demanded Bill put in Butler rather than ignoring it. McCourty who actually plays in that unit should've stepped up as well.
#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
The drafting went ignored by the media and fans because they were "winning". The reason they were winning was because the draft picks from 2009-2013 were carrying them and only a few of them were left. Bad drafting and personnel moves are undefeated in stopping a prior successful team or dynasty. It's happening to the Chiefs now.
#9. The Patriots pushed a lot of veteran contracts to 2020. They got rid of the salary cap overhang that year in order to clear space for 2021.
A big question the national media has asked over the years was where was their salary cap so strapped since the Pats didn't have many big contracts? It was because they spent way too much money on recycled veterans, special teams and DB's. I noticed this was an even bigger problem during the late Bill years as those positions ate up a significant portion of the cap.
#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
He was the right pick at the time and nobody within the 1st round picked after Jones would've made the team any better.
#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.
After Mayo was named successor, he must've heard from Ownership during the season that they were moving on from BB after the 2023 season which explains why Mayo stopped listening to him. Mayo is an unprofessional ungrateful turd.
 
Love the logic that Mac Jones wasn't Bill's preferred pick and even if that was true (it isn't) that somehow absolves Bill for picking him in the first place.

No it does not.

At all.
 
This is where I side with Kraft. BB wasted a 3rd round pick in 2008 on Kevin O'Connell when Brady just had a record breaking season. They had a major needs at OL, LB, and DB. Taking a QB that high was idiotic. Fast forward to 2014. Brady dragged that awful team to the AFCCG in 2013 and put up a decent fight against the record breaking Denver Broncos. Brady needed help and blowing a 2nd rounder on a QB was completely unnecessary.
I was really referring to Garoppolo rather than O'Connell. O'Connell was brought on as a backup. This was a regular practice for Belichick since he clearly saw value in 3rd and 4th round QBs to take the backup role rather than paying up and using cap money for a backup. It's not a bad practice when you realize how much backups are getting paid. As for Garoppolo, I will say it again: Brady was already 6 or 7 years older than previous QBs in previous transitions. I'm sure in Belichick's mind Brady would have been 40 yrs old when a transition to a 2 year backup Garoppolo would've taken place. What always puzzles me is when Patriot fans don't see this as sound planning for the relative health of the entire franchise.
I can see why. Players like Brady and Gronk were pretty pissed after the game. However, as I mentioned on this board before, they should've demanded Bill put in Butler rather than ignoring it. McCourty who actually plays in that unit should've stepped up as well.

What no one ever accounts for is the discipline this team had shown over 20 years and how that lead to many winning seasons. It's a factor, but there is no way to account for it. We never had a Eugene Robinson incident on the night of a big game. The team's troubles in that regard (Chandler Jones) always happened in the offseason. What does it mean when every teammate is accountable? How does that make the team more cohesive? We did see in 2009 the result of multiple players like Adalius Thomas flaunt the rules. It wasn't pretty. That being said, we don't even know if Malcolm Butler was indeed punished or benched. For that matter, Butler was not actually that good of a player to have definitely made a difference. He was no Ty Law, he was no Asante Samuel, heck he wasn't even a JC Jackson.
The drafting went ignored by the media and fans because they were "winning". The reason they were winning was because the draft picks from 2009-2013 were carrying them and only a few of them were left. Bad drafting and personnel moves are undefeated in stopping a prior successful team or dynasty. It's happening to the Chiefs now.

I don't disagree with this except to say the Chiefs have actually adopted the Patriots' late dynasty drafting strategy, which is trading picks for vets and always drafting athletic ability over football ability. They are swinging for the fences. They are drafting speed and combine measurables. Why? Because they had a full roster and wanted to maximize their window. As for the Patriots, they had even more reason to do this since in those years Brady was 38-42, while the Chiefs are trying to squeeze out one more Super Bowl and Mahomes is only 30.
A big question the national media has asked over the years was where was their salary cap so strapped since the Pats didn't have many big contracts? It was because they spent way too much money on recycled veterans, special teams and DB's. I noticed this was an even bigger problem during the late Bill years as those positions ate up a significant portion of the cap.

Agree, I made this point. Belichick sold out.

He was the right pick at the time and nobody within the 1st round picked after Jones would've made the team any better.
I'm not really projecting this too much because who knows if they end up with Maye. With this kind of weird logic, one might even argue that were it not for Matt Patricia as OC, we don't end up with Maye. That being said, if we hadn't ended up with Maye, the selection of Mac Jones could be thought of as the kind of thing that wasted our time and set the franchise back for a decade. If I had to do it over again in hindsight? I take Kwity Paye or Landon ****erson and still end up with Maye somehow!

After Mayo was named successor, he must've heard from Ownership during the season that they were moving on from BB after the 2023 season which explains why Mayo stopped listening to him. Mayo is an unprofessional ungrateful turd.

I only posted this because I was never a fan of Al Davis, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, Irsay and all the newfangled owners who act this way, like the Redskins new owner (who interferes) and the Dolphins' owner Ross. I always wanted the Krafts to be more like Giants and Steelers ownership.
 
I only posted this because I was never a fan of Al Davis, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, Irsay and all the newfangled owners who act this way, like the Redskins new owner (who interferes) and the Dolphins' owner Ross. I always wanted the Krafts to be more like Giants and Steelers ownership.
Al Davis and I think Jones as well have been known to try overriding coaches and call in plays themselves and I feel like Ms. Irsay-Gordon is on that same path. I don't think the Krafts interfere even close to that level of detail.
 
I don't know how people can watch the series The Dynasty and not blame the downfall on Kraft. He self-confesses (despite not trying to) the outrageous amount of meddling he's done over the years.

I don't know how you can have the knowledge that Kraft undermined his previous coaches, both Carroll and Parcells, and had a falling out with them, and then you can't imagine he was the same was from about 2014 on with Belichick.

He thinks he knows football. Jonathan thinks he knows football. This is the whole reason they hired Mayo.

In the Dynasty, Kraft tried to heap a ton of blame on Belichick, and it began almost chronologically.

#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
#5. The '18 Super Bowl saved Belichick's job.
#6. Kraft insisted on reinstalling Guerrero into the locker room despite Belichick's objections. Even Amendola, who didn't get along with Belichick, understood that this would undermine the coaches since Guerrero was giving advice to players that countered what the coaches were proscribing.
#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
#9. The Patriots pushed a lot of veteran contracts to 2020. They got rid of the salary cap overhang that year in order to clear space for 2021.
#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
#11. When, by the end of 2022 when the determination was made to move on from Mac, the owner and front office were not happy with Belichick. Callahan again reported that Belichick was making overtures to sign Baker Mayfield, but this plan was nixed because the owners were still solidly in Mac's corner.
#12. Callahan also reported BEFORE the season that Belichick wanted to hold onto Jakobi Meyers, but he was convinced by "the collaborators" that JuJu S.-S. was much better at YAC and more valuable.
#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.

The idea that Belichick didn't care anymore or purposely destroyed the season collapses when you realize the owners had engineered a coaching coup from under his feet and they saddled him with a QB who was incapable of leading the team. In retrospect, someone like Mayfield would have been the much better choice.

Belichick isn't perfect, his decision -- for instance -- to go with Patricia was backwards. His roster of coaches had completely depleted at that point as coaches moved for promotions elsewhere.

Still, it should be obvious that the team was in rebuild mode. In fact, the players who were chosen from those post-Super Bowl years are part of the current core. Look at the draftees and FAs that came in during these years:

Hunter Henry
Matthew Judon
Kendrick Bourne
Davon Godchaux
Jabril Peppers

and the draftees:

Mike Onwenu
Christian Barmore
Rham Stevenson
Christian Gonzlaez
Marcus Jones
Kayshon Boutte
Demario Douglas
Kyle Dugger
Anfernee Jennings
Keion White
Marte Mapu
Bryce Baringer

Not to mention the others who, like Keion White and Dugger currently, don't fit with the scheme; still some of those who left are starters with other teams now.

I'm talking about Hjalte Froholdt, Jake Andrews, and even Chad Ryland who made the Pro Bowl.

Many of the players I listed, Barmore, Boutte, Marcus Jones, Hunter Henry, Christian Gonzalez, form the core of the current team.
I didn’t realize there was a problem. We were the greatest dynasty in the history of the sport.
 
Al Davis and I think Jones as well have been known to try overriding coaches and call in plays themselves and I feel like Ms. Irsay-Gordon is on that same path. I don't think the Krafts interfere even close to that level of detail.
Some need a scapegoat so they don’t need to blame the guy who was actually running the football team.
 
Some need a scapegoat so they don’t need to blame the guy who was actually running the football team.
I laid out everything that happened and who was deserving of blame.

In that list of things Kraft did wrong, I also listed several things Belichick did wrong.

It's always interesting to see people accuse others of the thing they're doing themselves.
 
I laid out everything that happened and who was deserving of blame.

In that list of things Kraft did wrong, I also listed several things Belichick did wrong.

It's always interesting to see people accuse others of the thing they're doing themselves.
99% of the football stuff was left to Bill. Only when something clearly wasn’t working (like Patricia and Judge running offense) did Kraft demand a change. Bill had more leeway given to him than any other coach in the league. To somehow come back and lay a bunch of issues at Krafts feet is ridiculous.

Bill deserves (and gets) a ton of credit for building the program and the success it had. Bill also deserves the lions share of the blame for how it ended - bad drafts, Brady leaving, Gronk situation, family & friends coaching staff, M. Butler, not talking to Mac, low wins at the end…
 
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99% of the football stuff was left to Bill. Only when something clearly wasn’t working (like Patricia and Judge running offense) did Kraft demand a change. Bill had more leeway given to him than any other coach in the league. To somehow come back and lay a bunch of issues at Krafts feet is ridiculous.

Bill deserves (and gets) a ton of credit for building the program and the success it had. Bill also deserves the lions share of the blame for how it ended - bad drafts, Brady leaving, Gronk situation, family & friends coaching staff, M. Butler, not talking to Mac, low wins at the end…
Obviously don't agree with much of this. It is incredibly corrosive to have either people inside the room contradicting coaches or else coaches going their own way and creating lockeroom divisions. In every instance, Kraft interpreted Bill's decisions in the most ungenerous and negative fashion imaginable. This is why I want owners like the Giants have.
 
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