Kraft, not Belichick, was the problem

[upstater1]

I don't know how people can watch the series The Dynasty and not blame the downfall on Kraft. He self-confesses (despite not trying to) the outrageous amount of meddling he's done over the years.

I don't know how you can have the knowledge that Kraft undermined his previous coaches, both Carroll and Parcells, and had a falling out with them, and then you can't imagine he was the same was from about 2014 on with Belichick.

He thinks he knows football. Jonathan thinks he knows football. This is the whole reason they hired Mayo.

In the Dynasty, Kraft tried to heap a ton of blame on Belichick, and it began almost chronologically.

#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
#5. The '18 Super Bowl saved Belichick's job.
#6. Kraft insisted on reinstalling Guerrero into the locker room despite Belichick's objections. Even Amendola, who didn't get along with Belichick, understood that this would undermine the coaches since Guerrero was giving advice to players that countered what the coaches were proscribing.
#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
#9. The Patriots pushed a lot of veteran contracts to 2020. They got rid of the salary cap overhang that year in order to clear space for 2021.
#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
#11. When, by the end of 2022 when the determination was made to move on from Mac, the owner and front office were not happy with Belichick. Callahan again reported that Belichick was making overtures to sign Baker Mayfield, but this plan was nixed because the owners were still solidly in Mac's corner.
#12. Callahan also reported BEFORE the season that Belichick wanted to hold onto Jakobi Meyers, but he was convinced by "the collaborators" that JuJu S.-S. was much better at YAC and more valuable.
#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.

The idea that Belichick didn't care anymore or purposely destroyed the season collapses when you realize the owners had engineered a coaching coup from under his feet and they saddled him with a QB who was incapable of leading the team. In retrospect, someone like Mayfield would have been the much better choice.

Belichick isn't perfect, his decision -- for instance -- to go with Patricia was backwards. His roster of coaches had completely depleted at that point as coaches moved for promotions elsewhere.

Still, it should be obvious that the team was in rebuild mode. In fact, the players who were chosen from those post-Super Bowl years are part of the current core. Look at the draftees and FAs that came in during these years:

Hunter Henry
Matthew Judon
Kendrick Bourne
Davon Godchaux
Jabril Peppers

and the draftees:

Mike Onwenu
Christian Barmore
Rham Stevenson
Christian Gonzlaez
Marcus Jones
Kayshon Boutte
Demario Douglas
Kyle Dugger
Anfernee Jennings
Keion White
Marte Mapu
Bryce Baringer

Not to mention the others who, like Keion White and Dugger currently, don't fit with the scheme; still some of those who left are starters with other teams now.

I'm talking about Hjalte Froholdt, Jake Andrews, and even Chad Ryland who made the Pro Bowl.

Many of the players I listed, Barmore, Boutte, Marcus Jones, Hunter Henry, Christian Gonzalez, form the core of the current team.

 

[Boomer B]

 

[sb1]

#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
No chance he would be fired right away after investing a first rounder in Bill. He would have gotten at least the 2002 season to turn things around either way.

#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
And he wasn't? That whole thing was complete BS but lawyering up the memo and the NFL bylaws was never Bill's job.

#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
If anyone deserved the benefit of the doubt on anything it was Tom Brady. Belichick was wrong for wanting to move on from Brady at the time and thankfully whoever it was deserves credit for that not happening.

#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
And rightfully so. Malcolm Butler sitting was the worst coaching decision in the history of the Super Bowl hands down.

#6. Kraft insisted on reinstalling Guerrero into the locker room despite Belichick's objections. Even Amendola, who didn't get along with Belichick, understood that this would undermine the coaches since Guerrero was giving advice to players that countered what the coaches were proscribing.
It's funny that Belichick had a problem with Guerrero but he doesn't have a problem with his 24 year old girlfriend distraction hanging around his team now. The two of them have become the noise that he preached for everyone to ignore over the years.

#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
The new collaboration could give their input on players but Belichick always had 100% control over personnel.

#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
As we saw that approach has a limited shelf life. You have to pay the piper eventually.


#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
I don't buy this at all. If he truly didn't want Mac Jones he wouldn't have drafted him. Period. Nobody forced Bill to do anything, he had full control at all times.

#11. When, by the end of 2022 when the determination was made to move on from Mac, the owner and front office were not happy with Belichick. Callahan again reported that Belichick was making overtures to sign Baker Mayfield, but this plan was nixed because the owners were still solidly in Mac's corner.
This I believe. Bill decided he didn't want to coach Mac anymore after a year and he made it obvious by no longer talking to him and creating a ridiculous QB controversy with Bailey Zappe.

#12. Callahan also reported BEFORE the season that Belichick wanted to hold onto Jakobi Meyers, but he was convinced by "the collaborators" that JuJu S.-S. was much better at YAC and more valuable.
"He was convinced by them" - in other words that is 100% on Bill and nobody else.

#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.

No question that was a blunder by Kraft and I credit him for recognizing that it was a blunder, taking the L and firing him. This season would be looking very different right now had he not put his ego aside and done what's best for the team.

Both of them need to put this stupid feud aside and reconcile already.

 

[Steve102]

I don't know how people can watch the series The Dynasty and not blame the downfall on Kraft. He self-confesses (despite not trying to) the outrageous amount of meddling he's done over the years.

I don't know how you can have the knowledge that Kraft undermined his previous coaches, both Carroll and Parcells, and had a falling out with them, and then you can't imagine he was the same was from about 2014 on with Belichick.

He thinks he knows football. Jonathan thinks he knows football. This is the whole reason they hired Mayo.

In the Dynasty, Kraft tried to heap a ton of blame on Belichick, and it began almost chronologically.

#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
#5. The '18 Super Bowl saved Belichick's job.
#6. Kraft insisted on reinstalling Guerrero into the locker room despite Belichick's objections. Even Amendola, who didn't get along with Belichick, understood that this would undermine the coaches since Guerrero was giving advice to players that countered what the coaches were proscribing.
#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
#9. The Patriots pushed a lot of veteran contracts to 2020. They got rid of the salary cap overhang that year in order to clear space for 2021.
#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
#11. When, by the end of 2022 when the determination was made to move on from Mac, the owner and front office were not happy with Belichick. Callahan again reported that Belichick was making overtures to sign Baker Mayfield, but this plan was nixed because the owners were still solidly in Mac's corner.
#12. Callahan also reported BEFORE the season that Belichick wanted to hold onto Jakobi Meyers, but he was convinced by "the collaborators" that JuJu S.-S. was much better at YAC and more valuable.
#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.

The idea that Belichick didn't care anymore or purposely destroyed the season collapses when you realize the owners had engineered a coaching coup from under his feet and they saddled him with a QB who was incapable of leading the team. In retrospect, someone like Mayfield would have been the much better choice.

Belichick isn't perfect, his decision -- for instance -- to go with Patricia was backwards. His roster of coaches had completely depleted at that point as coaches moved for promotions elsewhere.

Still, it should be obvious that the team was in rebuild mode. In fact, the players who were chosen from those post-Super Bowl years are part of the current core. Look at the draftees and FAs that came in during these years:

Hunter Henry
Matthew Judon
Kendrick Bourne
Davon Godchaux
Jabril Peppers

and the draftees:

Mike Onwenu
Christian Barmore
Rham Stevenson
Christian Gonzlaez
Marcus Jones
Kayshon Boutte
Demario Douglas
Kyle Dugger
Anfernee Jennings
Keion White
Marte Mapu
Bryce Baringer

Not to mention the others who, like Keion White and Dugger currently, don't fit with the scheme; still some of those who left are starters with other teams now.

I'm talking about Hjalte Froholdt, Jake Andrews, and even Chad Ryland who made the Pro Bowl.

Many of the players I listed, Barmore, Boutte, Marcus Jones, Hunter Henry, Christian Gonzalez, form the core of the current team.

Kraft's business model worked while Bill was in charge because Bill cast a huge shadow, had vets to carry the message for the first half of the Dynasty. After that, Brady had ascended to GOATness and he carried the message until he was sick of Bill's ****. Kraft's business model failed under Mayo because he wasn't strong enough or knowledgeable enough to handle the load. Vrabel comes in with the knowledge and the support staff to make it work.

Kraft was a victim of his own excess. He had the GOATs at the two positions most important in the NFL; QB and HC. Kraft was guilty of sitting on his ass and being fat and happy until it was too late. I will die on the hill that Mayo's only job was to Not Be Bill, and that's why he failed. Kraft gave him zero support, Mayo's failure is Kraft's failure. We can all be thankful that it did fail, because now Vrabel is here and it's working.

 

[VectorPrime]

Sure, maybe it’s Kraft’s fault. But in the same way a parent is at fault for giving their 8 year old a loaded handgun. The 8 year old still ****ed up and shot themselves though.

The emperor didn’t actually have new clothes, face the ****ing reality already.

 

[upstater1]

Sure, maybe it’s Kraft’s fault. But in the same way a parent is at fault for giving their 8 year old a loaded handgun. The 8 year old still ****ed up and shot themselves though.

The emperor didn’t actually have new clothes, face the ****ing reality already.

what's the handgun... what are you referring to?

 

[upstater1]

#1. The switch from Bledsoe to Brady. Kraft didn't like it. Was ready to fire Belichick.
No chance he would be fired right away after investing a first rounder in Bill. He would have gotten at least the 2002 season to turn things around either way.

?? Kraft said this in the Dynasty. Belichick's job was on the line. Belichick reported this back to friends.

#2. He blamed Belichick for Spygate. Called him a schmuck for doing it.
And he wasn't? That whole thing was complete BS but lawyering up the memo and the NFL bylaws was never Bill's job.

Of course it wasn't his fault. Did we need to do this again? And let me get this straight: Bill's job is not to know NFL rules? What? The memo was IGNORED by the NFL in 2006 when the Jets filmed the Patriots and the NFL told the Patriots that filming from the field is FINE. The memo came out BEFORE that.

#3. Got upset when Belichick started to plan for Brady's retirement by drafting Garoppolo. Apparently, Belichick showed him a study about how QBs deteriorate when they were around Brady's age at the time (37). Steve Young was brought on to replace Montana in SF when Montana was 31. But the idea that Belichick would want to plan to transition from a much older Brady meant Belichick had ulterior motives.
If anyone deserved the benefit of the doubt on anything it was Tom Brady. Belichick was wrong for wanting to move on from Brady at the time and thankfully whoever it was deserves credit for that not happening.

So you blame Belichick for not having a plan for after Brady left and also blame him for having a plan. Any GM who has not prepared for the departure of his 40 year old QB is committing malpractice. 40 is really really old. If you haven't prepared, you're not doing your job. This is basic common sense.

#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
And rightfully so. Malcolm Butler sitting was the worst coaching decision in the history of the Super Bowl hands down.

Absurd and bizarre. #1 Malcolm Butler was not a good CB. #2 the Patriots had just won 2 Super Bowls. You're making my case for me here. To even think of firing Belichick there is exactly what I'm saying: a case of megalomaniacal meddling in things he doesn't know anything about. Assuming the decision to bench Butler was punishment (and it might not be since Butler was active and on the sideline) it becomes impossible to account for how much discipline on the Patriots contributed to their success in the past. Not only that, but if you believe Kraft would be RIGHT to fire him ("rightfully so...") they definitely DO NOT win the Super Bowl in 2018.

#6. Kraft insisted on reinstalling Guerrero into the locker room despite Belichick's objections. Even Amendola, who didn't get along with Belichick, understood that this would undermine the coaches since Guerrero was giving advice to players that countered what the coaches were proscribing.
It's funny that Belichick had a problem with Guerrero but he doesn't have a problem with his 24 year old girlfriend distraction hanging around his team now. The two of them have become the noise that he preached for everyone to ignore over the years.

She's in the locker room? On the field? This is only a thing for people whose favorite show is Desperate Housewives. Amedola said it, Guerrero was countering the coaches and corroding the authority of the coaches in the locker room. She's also doing that? Please. You're stretching things.

#7. Because of the bad drafting of the previous several years, Kraft insisted that Belichick would have to collaborate from then on, so they hired Wolf.
The new collaboration could give their input on players but Belichick always had 100% control over personnel.

LOL... what does this even mean? Input on players? What are you even saying? Input on players was ALWAYS given BEFORE and AFTER. What exactly do you think changed? Are you saying Belichick was on the road scouting college players?

#8. While the drafting was bad, Kraft didn't seem to understand the context of what was happening. The team was winning Super Bowls. They were trading away picks for veterans, #1 for Cooks, #2 for Sanu, #4 for Brown. They lost 4 prime draft picks for Deflategate. The roster was full of veterans so Belichick deliberately tried to swing for the fences. He made bad risky picks like Easley.
As we saw that approach has a limited shelf life. You have to pay the piper eventually.

AGREE. Look at what the Chiefs are currently doing. The exact same thing the Patriots did. Expending draft picks. Bringing in vets. Trying to hit home runs with speed. For every hit in Xavier Worthy they have 3 high draft choice WR speedsters in Mecole Hardman, Skyy Moore, etc. Reid is swinging for the fences. He doesn't care though because he knows he has the team set already.

#10. Callahan wrote in the Herald that Mac Jones was not the pick Belichick wanted. You could kind of tell when Belichick asked, "Are we sure we want to do this? Does anyone want to speak up?"
I don't buy this at all. If he truly didn't want Mac Jones he wouldn't have drafted him. Period. Nobody forced Bill to do anything, he had full control at all times.

"Collaborators." We never saw Belichick question a choice right before it was made. He was talking to the principals when he asked those questions. Callahan is much more connected than you think.

#11. When, by the end of 2022 when the determination was made to move on from Mac, the owner and front office were not happy with Belichick. Callahan again reported that Belichick was making overtures to sign Baker Mayfield, but this plan was nixed because the owners were still solidly in Mac's corner.
This I believe. Bill decided he didn't want to coach Mac anymore after a year and he made it obvious by no longer talking to him and creating a ridiculous QB controversy with Bailey Zappe.

You're getting the years mixed up. This happened after Mac's 2nd year, not before. Mac that year was seen screaming hysterically like he'd had his leg carved off on a battlefield. It was really obvious to everyone that this was not the guy, not a leader, gutless, etc.

#12. Callahan also reported BEFORE the season that Belichick wanted to hold onto Jakobi Meyers, but he was convinced by "the collaborators" that JuJu S.-S. was much better at YAC and more valuable.
"He was convinced by them" - in other words that is 100% on Bill and nobody else.

His "collaborators." Kraft said things had to change, he had to collaborate. This was the result. AND for one thing, Callahan wrote his article at the start of the season before anyone knew what the swap of JuJu for Jakobi was a complete dud. Callahan wrote that Belichick was RESISTANT to front office theories about better YAC for JuJu versus Jakobi. Again, this was people who think they knew football collaborating with Belichick and moving him off what he otherwise would've done. Sure, you can say it's all on Belichick -- but kraft told him he would have to change. What is this? MEDDLING.

#13. We found out that Mayo was promised the job after Belichick. This created a situation in which there was a mutiny on the staff in the middle of the season. When you have two sets of staff working against each other, with the owners clearly backing one side, you're going to have a destroyed season.

No question that was a blunder by Kraft and I credit him for recognizing that it was a blunder, taking the L and firing him. This season would be looking very different right now had he not put his ego aside and done what's best for the team.

Both of them need to put this stupid feud aside and reconcile already.

What blunder are you talking about? I'm not talking about the hiring of Mayo. I was referring to Kraft creating a mutiny inside the team early in the 2023 season.

 

[stinkypete]

#4. Kraft talked about wanting to fire Belichick after the loss in the '17 Super Bowl.
And rightfully so. Malcolm Butler sitting was the worst coaching decision in the history of the Super Bowl hands down.

Seahawks fans beg to differ.

 

[stinkypete]

The constant Brady vs. Belichick vs. Kraft debate on this board, and in the local media, is insufferable.

Following this team was once like following actual football. Then, around 2017, it became freaking wrestling, with all the petty drama...a soap opera for grown men. Now it's like politics. You can't go to a news site without seeing "blah blah blah Biden" or "blah blah blah Harris..." WHY? They lost. It's over. Move on. All these silly man feuds are in the past...like, way in the past. Brady's been off this team for six years and retired for three. Belichick has been fired for nearly two years. Why are we still stuck on this. They blew it. It's done. Move on!

Here's a hot take, it Belichick and Kraft didn't completely screw the pooch on this roster from 2017 - 2023, opening the door for us to select #3 overall in 2024, we might be have been the team trading for Joe Flacco because Will Levis couldn't cut it as a starter. Worse still, we could have committed to Mac Jones.

The present is bright. Enjoy it.

 

[sb1]

?? Kraft said this in the Dynasty. Belichick's job was on the line. Belichick reported this back to friends.

Yes his job was on the line if he failed to turn around the Patriots. What Kraft said was just words not actions and he's been talking a lot more than he should lately. I really don't think they pull the plug until the next season if there was no improvement.

Of course it wasn't his fault. Did we need to do this again? And let me get this straight: Bill's job is not to know NFL rules? What? The memo was IGNORED by the NFL in 2006 when the Jets filmed the Patriots and the NFL told the Patriots that filming from the field is FINE. The memo came out BEFORE that.

I agree it was all embellished BS. Bill also didn't need to play word games with the "used in game" clause from the memo and bylaws. That wasn't his job.

So you blame Belichick for not having a plan for after Brady left and also blame him for having a plan. Any GM who has not prepared for the departure of his 40 year old QB is committing malpractice. 40 is really really old. If you haven't prepared, you're not doing your job. This is basic common sense.

Like I said if there was an exception to be made...Brady was the exception. There was no sign he was getting close to the "Cliff (tm)".

Absurd and bizarre. #1 Malcolm Butler was not a good CB.

And yet he still played 97% of the snaps for the team up to that point so he couldn't have possibly been as bad as people say he was. And then despite playing all those snaps he was benched for no reason the week of the game. Not before the playoffs... before the Super Bowl when they were already in Minneapolis. There was no chance the defense wouldn't take a massive hit from losing a contributor like that. The only justifiable reason to bench him like that in my view would have been if Bill got word he was gambling on this game. If that happened he would have been sent home and the league would have likely put him on the exempt list till an investigation was completed. Instead he kept him on the bench, gave him token ST snaps and humiliated him in the process. Bill is absolutely petty enough to do that. Any other coach would have been canned for throwing away a SB for no reason like that.

She's in the locker room? On the field? This is only a thing for people whose favorite show is Desperate Housewives. Amedola said it, Guerrero was countering the coaches and corroding the authority of the coaches in the locker room. She's also doing that? Please. You're stretching things.

Do we know for sure she's not in the locker room or involved with football decisions? We know she roams the sidelines before and after games. And even hangs around the team going to the locker room. So she's very close to the team. A distraction. Just find it funny that Belichick wanted no part of Guerrero around the team but she's not a problem.

LOL... what does this even mean? Input on players? What are you even saying? Input on players was ALWAYS given BEFORE and AFTER. What exactly do you think changed? Are you saying Belichick was on the road scouting college players?

Nothing changed, that's my point. People talk about collaborators but Belichick had final say all the way before and after Kraft spoke up about being more collaborative..

AGREE. Look at what the Chiefs are currently doing. The exact same thing the Patriots did. Expending draft picks. Bringing in vets. Trying to hit home runs with speed. For every hit in Xavier Worthy they have 3 high draft choice WR speedsters in Mecole Hardman, Skyy Moore, etc. Reid is swinging for the fences. He doesn't care though because he knows he has the team set already.

That is true and they probably won't be able to do that indefinitely as we saw here.

"Collaborators." We never saw Belichick question a choice right before it was made. He was talking to the principals when he asked those questions. Callahan is much more connected than you think.

Because he wanted to look like he was collaborating. He could have vetoed any decision at any time. If he didn't want to pick Jones he wouldn't have. Period. If he was talked into picking a player... that's still on Bill for agreeing to it

What blunder are you talking about? I'm not talking about the hiring of Mayo. I was referring to Kraft creating a mutiny inside the team early in the 2023 season.

Yeah I was referring to the hiring and I'm not going to disagree that it created a problem. Kraft was a problem too and both need to stop this nonsense.

 

[sb1]

Seahawks fans beg to differ.

I still think the decision to pass was fine (but maybe not THAT pass). They were doing a good job against Lynch in short yardage up to that point so there was no guarantee he gets in.

 

[upstater1]

Yes his job was on the line if he failed to turn around the Patriots. What Kraft said was just words not actions and he's been talking a lot more than he should lately. I really don't think they pull the plug until the next season if there was no improvement.

Nope. Kraft said his job was on the line specifically because he replaced Bledsoe with Brady. This is meddling.

I agree it was all embellished BS. Bill also didn't need to play word games with the "used in game" clause from the memo and bylaws. That wasn't his job.

The NFL did that! Not Bill. This is my whole point about the Jets filming in 2006! They told Bill it was OK if the Jets didn't use the film in game!

Like I said if there was an exception to be made...Brady was the exception. There was no sign he was getting close to the "Cliff (tm)".

I never said there was a sign. Garoppolo wasnt going to replace him immediately. By drafting Garoppolo you season a guy for a few seasons without throwing a rookie in there. It was smart. It would've been malpractice NOT to do it.

And yet he still played 97% of the snaps for the team up to that point so he couldn't have possibly been as bad as people say he was. And then despite playing all those snaps he was benched for no reason the week of the game. Not before the playoffs... before the Super Bowl when they were already in Minneapolis. There was no chance the defense wouldn't take a massive hit from losing a contributor like that. The only justifiable reason to bench him like that in my view would have been if Bill got word he was gambling on this game. If that happened he would have been sent home and the league would have likely put him on the exempt list till an investigation was completed. Instead he kept him on the bench, gave him token ST snaps and humiliated him in the process. Bill is absolutely petty enough to do that. Any other coach would have been canned for throwing away a SB for no reason like that.

We're speculating but I already answered you before about the decision IF it was punishment. We're all assuming it was. On that basis, Belichick's discipline was responsible for so much of the winning, and yes for Super Bowl victories. So if you're going to be inconsistent and lax, the players will get the message. You will lose more games.

Do we know for sure she's not in the locker room or involved with football decisions? We know she roams the sidelines before and after games. And even hangs around the team going to the locker room. So she's very close to the team. A distraction. Just find it funny that Belichick wanted no part of Guerrero around the team but she's not a problem.

No, she's not on the locker room, nor is she on the field. You're comparing this to a private trainer who is contradicting coaches. There is no comparison here.

Nothing changed, that's my point. People talk about collaborators but Belichick had final say all the way before and after Kraft spoke up about being more collaborative..

I'm asking you what the heck this means. If Belichick always had input from personnel people (Caserio, Pioli, etc.) then what changed? Something changed.

That is true and they probably won't be able to do that indefinitely as we saw here.

Because he wanted to look like he was collaborating. He could have vetoed any decision at any time. If he didn't want to pick Jones he wouldn't have. Period. If he was talked into picking a player... that's still on Bill for agreeing to it

Something changed. He had to be more collaborative. He had to give in here or there to show he was moving in the spirit of collaboration.

Yeah I was referring to the hiring and I'm not going to disagree that it created a problem. Kraft was a problem too and both need to stop this nonsense.

BOTH? Kraft is the one who torpedoed the season.

 

[upstater1]

The constant Brady vs. Belichick vs. Kraft debate on this board, and in the local media, is insufferable.

Following this team was once like following actual football. Then, around 2017, it became freaking wrestling, with all the petty drama...a soap opera for grown men. Now it's like politics. You can't go to a news site without seeing "blah blah blah Biden" or "blah blah blah Harris..." WHY? They lost. It's over. Move on. All these silly man feuds are in the past...like, way in the past. Brady's been off this team for six years and retired for three. Belichick has been fired for nearly two years. Why are we still stuck on this. They blew it. It's done. Move on!

Here's a hot take, it Belichick and Kraft didn't completely screw the pooch on this roster from 2017 - 2023, opening the door for us to select #3 overall in 2024, we might be have been the team trading for Joe Flacco because Will Levis couldn't cut it as a starter. Worse still, we could have committed to Mac Jones.

The present is bright. Enjoy it.

Um... this is the Brady-Belichick message board, reserved for this sort of debate.

The poor drafting was 2015-2019.

2020-2023 was 3 good drafts and a bunch of good FAs, with one bad draft in between.

Here are the guys, many of them currently on this team, who came in:

Hunter Henry
Matthew Judon
Kendrick Bourne
Davon Godchaux
Jabril Peppers
Mike Onwenu
Christian Barmore
Rham Stevenson
Christian Gonzlaez
Marcus Jones
Kayshon Boutte
Demario Douglas
Kyle Dugger
Anfernee Jennings
Keion White
Marte Mapu
Bryce Baringer
Hjalte Froholdt (playing well in Arizona)
Jake Andrews (playing well in Houston)
Chad Ryland (playing well in Arizona).

This is a decent amount of talent brought in over those 4 years, with one of those drafts a complete dud (only Marcus Jones panning out).

 

[Boomer B]

Bill, like a lot of people who had success, got fat. The things he did to get to the top of the mountain weren’t at the forefront anymore, and ego and narcissism crept in.

From 2000 to 2015 or so, Bill was in top form. The decisions made were for the best of the Patriots, but at some point the decisions became more about what was best for Bill.

- Jimmy G
- I only want people around me that I like
- benching M. Butler
- tried to trade Gronk
- alienated Brady
- no backup plan for Brady when he offered him a ****ty deal
- give me any top 15 QB and we can win a SB
- brutal drafts in his later years
- put his son in prominent role
- Patricia and Judge leading the offence and Qb development
- wouldn’t talk to his QB or his owner his last years

It’s all on record, all there for everyone to see. Bill deserves a ton of credit for the first era of the Dynasty but he also deserves the bulk of the blame for how the Dynasty ended and the following years. My own personal feeling was that Brady was the one who deserved to retire a Patriot as he was the biggest reason for the pro-longed success of the Dynasty.

 

[upstater1]

Bill, like a lot of people who had success, got fat. The things he did to get to the top of the mountain weren’t at the forefront anymore, and ego and narcissism crept in.

From 2000 to 2015 or so, Bill was in top form. The decisions made were for the best of the Patriots, but at some point the decisions became more about what was best for Bill.

- Jimmy G
- I only want people around me that I like
- benching M. Butler
- tried to trade Gronk
- alienated Brady
- no backup plan for Brady when he offered him a ****ty deal
- give me any top 15 QB and we can win a SB
- brutal drafts in his later years
- put his son in prominent role
- Patricia and Judge leading the offence and Qb development
- wouldn’t talk to his QB or his owner his last years

It’s all on record, all there for everyone to see. Bill deserves a ton of credit for the first era of the Dynasty but he also deserves the bulk of the blame for how the Dynasty ended and the following years. My own personal feeling was that Brady was the one who deserved to retire a Patriot as he was the biggest reason for the pro-longed success of the Dynasty.

Simultaneously blaming Belichick for planning to move on from Brady and then blaming him for not having a backup oplan for moving on from Brady?

This is the kind of one-sidedness I always refer to.

As for his son, the defense was pretty good even during the down years.

Every coach wants people around them that they work well with. This isn't a mystery.

Drafts 2020-2023 werent that bad. One was bad.

Agree on bringing in Patricia (as for Judge, he actually had coached QBs in his background).

The show the Dynasty showed us what the real problem was, and it wasn't Belichick. It should be no surprise that the QB he didn't want to play, and the fact he found out he was being fired for his DC early in the season, create that dysfunction. Didn't talk to his QB? His QB was anointed by the owner who torpedoed the season and split the locker room. That's on Belichick?

Bottom line: Kraft has a repeated record of clashing with his HOF coaches and undermining them.

It's interesting to see how Patriots fans gloss this over. Hope it doesnt happen to Vrabel, but it's happened 3x in a row to the highest quality coaches.

 

[Boomer B]

Simultaneously blaming Belichick for planning to move on from Brady and then blaming him for not having a backup oplan for moving on from Brady?

This is the kind of one-sidedness I always refer to.

Yes, it was dumb to move on from Brady when he did. That’s factual. Brady was playing at a MVP level and just wanted a 2 year contract like Brees got. Bill wouldn’t give it to him and Bill was wrong.

It’s also dumb that if you weren’t going to give Brady a 2 year contract (which Bill decided not to do) to not have a credible back up plan. Bill alienated Brady, made him go year to year, and then when Brady left Bill was caught with his pants down and we ended up with the ghost of Cam Newton.

That was fireable right there. To force Brady out of the organization when he didn’t have a plan at QB. I don’t know how anyone can defend Bill for his last 5-6 years in New England. It was all about Bill at that point.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

I have a bit of a bone to pick with the whole concept of "blaming" anyone for the end of the dynasty. It's a bit of an oxymoron in the sense that their 20 year run of success was absolutely unparalleled and unrivaled. Most of the blame gets hurled at BB's GMing but as a GM they had super bowl caliber rosters for about 20 years straight. How long was he supposed to keep that up? The drafting fell off an absolute cliff for probably the last 5 years of the dynasty years but that was still 15 years of overall strong drafting. How long was he supposed to keep doing that?

Drafting also has a bit of a snowball effect. Look at a guy like Tyquan Thornton... here he was a mega colossal bust. In KC, he's at least playing a role. Not 2nd round pick worthy but not total bust. Drafting and team building isn't a one year at a time thing. Once you do it bad one year, you're now in a tougher situation the next year - you have more needs to prioritize and possibly reach for, your team in place doesn't facilitate each player's development happening on their own timeline. The draft itself is such a crapshoot so it's really hard not to botch one or two here and there and when you do now you start a snowball effect that's hard to stop. And to make things even tougher, BB's tenure was mostly before this new age of cap explosion and contract gymnastics that took a lot of the tough decisions out of GMing (which as a fair criticism I don't think he ever adjusted his approach to the point he was building with the same playing field as everyone else).

At the same time that snowball effect was happening, all of his circle of trust was retiring/moving on as another wrinkle of difficulty to it. He always held firm on the stance that Brady playing elite in his mid 40s was illogical and not something to tie yourself to, which was wrong in hindsight but also not exactly an outlandish position. Brady got hurt by that, thinking he earned that trust and said fine you want to go year to year so will I. And that overlapped with the bad drafting to where he said screw it, I'll go sign with a team in better position. Obviously there was some rift between them, but by all accounts if they signed Brady as long as he wanted he'd have extended after 2018. Once they wouldn't is when Brady decided he wasn't going to be loyal to a team that's roster building wasn't giving him the best chance to win.

With a lot of the stuff going on around him, it also reeks of him dealing with some old age decline himself. Just weird paranoia/aversion to working with new people at a time where professionally he really needs to do that (and did in his latter years here).

In the end, I'm just not going to get too caught up freaking out about why an unparalleled 20 year run didn't last for 25 years. A lot of stuff really snowballed up from some poor drafting, relationships being strained, and brain trust members leaving/retiring/losing mental capacity which is what happens to most teams. It just happens earlier and therefore doesn't build up as much for such a dramatic fall. The bigger they are the harder they fall and we had the biggest dynasty team ever, so to speak.

 

[Steve102]

That was fireable right there. To force Brady out of the organization when he didn’t have a plan at QB. I don’t know how anyone can defend Bill for his last 5-6 years in New England. It was all about Bill at that point.

SBB says hold my beer.

 

[upstater1]

Yes, it was dumb to move on from Brady when he did. That’s factual. Brady was playing at a MVP level and just wanted a 2 year contract like Brees got. Bill wouldn’t give it to him and Bill was wrong.

It’s also dumb that if you weren’t going to give Brady a 2 year contract (which Bill decided not to do) to not have a credible back up plan. Bill alienated Brady, made him go year to year, and then when Brady left Bill was caught with his pants down and we ended up with the ghost of Cam Newton.

That was fireable right there. To force Brady out of the organization when he didn’t have a plan at QB. I don’t know how anyone can defend Bill for his last 5-6 years in New England. It was all about Bill at that point.

I was referring to your listing of Jimmy Garoppolo.

Garoppolo was never supposed to play immediately. Brady was only 37 years old. He was supposed to take over later the way Rodgers did for Favre. Brady left the Patriots at 42.

Here's the thing that many people leave out of this Brady-Belichick discussion. During the summer of 2019 Brady showed up on Jeff Ross's boat with the intention of joining the Miami Dolphins a year later.

This would've been kept a secret except for the surprise revelation by Brian Flores. There's more to the 2-year contract than meets the eye. Brady very well knew the obvious: the team was old and cap-strapped. 2019 was an incredibly frustrating season for Brady. We already knew he was really angry that they cut Antonio Brown. No surprise he spent the previous summer making inroads with the Patriots' archrival.

 

[upstater1]

I have a bit of a bone to pick with the whole concept of "blaming" anyone for the end of the dynasty. It's a bit of an oxymoron in the sense that their 20 year run of success was absolutely unparalleled and unrivaled. Most of the blame gets hurled at BB's GMing but as a GM they had super bowl caliber rosters for about 20 years straight. How long was he supposed to keep that up? The drafting fell off an absolutely cliff for probably the last 5 years of the dynasty years but that was still1 5 years of overall strong drafting. How long was he supposed to keep doing that?

Drafting also has a bit of a snowball effect. Look at a guy like Tyquan Thornton... here he was a mega colossal bust. In KC, he's at least playing a role. Not 2nd round pick worthy but not total bust. Drafting and team building isn't a one year at a time thing. Once you do it bad one year, you're now in a tougher situation the next year - you have more needs to prioritize and possibly reach for, your team in place doesn't facilitate each player's development happening on their own timeline. The draft itself is such a crapshoot so it's really hard not to botch one or two here and there and when you do now you start a snowball effect that's hard to stop. And to make things even tougher, BB's tenure was mostly before this new age of cap explosion and contract gymnastics that took a lot of the tough decisions out of GMing (which as a fair criticism I don't think he ever adjusted his approach to the point he was building with the same playing field as everyone else).

At the same time that snowball effect was happening, all of his circle of trust was retiring/moving on as another wrinkle of difficulty to it. He always held firm on the stance that Brady playing elite in his mid 40s was illogical and not something to tie yourself to, which was wrong in hindsight but also not exactly an outlandish position. Brady got hurt by that, thinking he earned that trust and said fine you want to go year to year so will I. And that overlapped with the bad drafting to where he said screw it, I'll go sign with a team in better position. Obviously there was some rift between them, but by all accounts if they signed Brady as long as he wanted he'd have extended after 2018. Once they wouldn't is when Brady decided he wasn't going to be loyal to a team that's roster building wasn't giving him the best chance to win.

With a lot of the stuff going on around him, it also reeks of him dealing with some old age decline himself. Just weird paranoia/aversion to working with new people at a time where professionally he really needs to do that (and did in his latter years here).

In the end, I'm just not going to get too caught up freaking out about why an unparalleled 20 year run didn't last for 25 years. A lot of stuff really snowballed up from some poor drafting, relationships being strained, and brain trust members leaving/retiring/losing mental capacity which is what happens to most teams. It just happens earlier and therefore doesn't build up as much for such a dramatic fall. The bigger they are the harder they fall and we had the biggest dynasty team ever, so to speak.

Great post.