Stefon Diggs visiting Patriots

[203Pat]

No one is worried about Kraft money. The issue is cap money.

Consider signing a WR for $25M AAV for 3 years, with a $30M signing bonus and salaries of $5M, $15M and $25M (and necessary guarantees). The 2026 cap hit would be $25M out of the $35M now available.

I would do that for the right player, but we should NOT make believe that cost doesn't matter.

The cap is crap. There are a million ways around it. Front-load the deal, push salary into a signing bonus, void year(s) to spread to the hit, build the contract with an out after year one, two, etc. The Broncos and Browns handed out two of the worst contracts in history, and it didn't slow them down. Courtland Sutton, Patrick Surtain, Mike McGlinchey, Zach Allen, Denzel Ward, Myles Garrett, David Njoku. All signed big contracts with their respective teams. Hell, even the Bengals, who were laughed at as the cheapest team in the league, just paid two receivers big money with a QB already on a big deal.

Maybe 20 years ago the cap mattered when the TV deals weren't crazy like they are now but the cap increases every year and the owners who are willing to spend can pay whomever they want. Stefon Diggs wouldn't prohibit them from doing a single thing for one minute of any deal he signs.

 

[dliverey44]

The cap is crap. There are a million ways around it. Front-load the deal, push salary into a signing bonus, void year(s) to spread to the hit, build the contract with an out after year one, two, etc. The Broncos and Browns handed out two of the worst contracts in history, and it didn't slow them down. Courtland Sutton, Patrick Surtain, Mike McGlinchey, Zach Allen, Denzel Ward, Myles Garrett, David Njoku. All signed big contracts with their respective teams. Hell, even the Bengals, who were laughed at as the cheapest team in the league, just paid two receivers big money with a QB already on a big deal.

Maybe 20 years ago the cap mattered when the TV deals weren't crazy like they are now but the cap increases every year and the owners who are willing to spend can pay whomever they want. Stefon Diggs wouldn't prohibit them from doing a single thing for one minute of any deal he signs.

I agree that there are many ways to manipulate the cap. but it is not crap because as you pointed out the Bengals were able to pay Burrow, Tee and Chase but if the cap was truly crap they would also be able to pay good OL and defensive players.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I agree that there are many ways to manipulate the cap. but it is not crap because as you pointed out the Bengals were able to pay Burrow, Tee and Chase but if the cap was truly crap they would also be able to pay good OL and defensive players.

Agreed. If the cap is crap, why aren't the Eagles getting slammed harshly by the media for letting key defenders leave in free agency?

The Saints aren't technically still paying for Drew Brees, but basically they are. They have been kicking the can down the road for almost a decade, starting in his last few seasons trying to push for another title. They're still doing it. Does anyone think they're even close to being a real contender? Have they been? At some point they'll have to do a reset and take the hit, like Denver did last year with the Wilson contract.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The cap is crap. There are a million ways around it. Front-load the deal, push salary into a signing bonus, void year(s) to spread to the hit, build the contract with an out after year one, two, etc. The Broncos and Browns handed out two of the worst contracts in history, and it didn't slow them down. Courtland Sutton, Patrick Surtain, Mike McGlinchey, Zach Allen, Denzel Ward, Myles Garrett, David Njoku. All signed big contracts with their respective teams. Hell, even the Bengals, who were laughed at as the cheapest team in the league, just paid two receivers big money with a QB already on a big deal.

Maybe 20 years ago the cap mattered when the TV deals weren't crazy like they are now but the cap increases every year and the owners who are willing to spend can pay whomever they want. Stefon Diggs wouldn't prohibit them from doing a single thing for one minute of any deal he signs.

I don't think you mean to say the cap is crap. In the NBA and MLB the cap is crap because you can go over it but the NFL has a hard cap.

Correct. Teams can spend whatever they want every year. For players on the roster the can restructure and kick the cap can down the road. If they want to add dummy years until 2034 they can do so.

But there is still a hard cap and teams need to meet it's threshold at the start of the season.

 

[Pape]

3 yr deal allows them to spread the cap hit in case he is a bust. However for older players it can bite you in the ass down the road.

I agree on having some kind of variables snaps, catches, yards, wins, etc.

As we've been debating it really depends on the current market and recent history for an older player coming off a major injury. Clearly no other team is chomping at the bit for his servies.

2025 NFL Free Agents

Tracking the status and signings of all NFL free agents.

www.spotrac.com

So you eat some dead money, so what? Happens every year, with nearly every player that a team lets go. You can structure the contract in a way that reduces that type of hit, if you are really worried about it. As I said, it all comes down to the guarantees.

You cannot be afraid to make a deal because of what might happen a year or two year hence.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So you eat some dead money, so what? Happens every year, with nearly every player that a team lets go. You can structure the contract in a way that reduces that type of hit, if you are really worried about it. As I said, it all comes down to the guarantees.

I'm ok eating dead money especially if the cap savings is sizable and the player is no longer performing at that level. The amount is the question.

Yes- I am aware deals can be structured in a variety of ways. It's all a matter of how big of a can do you want to kick down the road.

You cannot be afraid to make a deal because of what might happen a year or two year hence.

Risky deals are a part of life. I've made them. But size of the risk, potential downside, and risk tolerance are all heavily influenced risk profile of the asset.

That is why I was OK with the Milton Williams deal. Hes young, impact player, hasn't caused problems, and hasn't had a major injury whereas Diggs is old, injured, traded twice....but healthy is impact player so assuming some short-term risk is worth it.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I don't think you mean to say the cap is crap. In the NBA and MLB the cap is crap because you can go over it but the NFL has a hard cap.

What the NBA does right is if a team pays a player, they have to pay the entirety of the contract. The only way out is a trade. If the NFL implemented this, we wouldn't have such inflated contracts we see today. Teams would be way more cautious on who they sign and for what amount.

That is why I was OK with the Milton Williams deal. Hes young, impact player, hasn't caused problems, and hasn't had a major injury whereas Diggs is old, injured, traded twice....but healthy is impact player so assuming some short-term risk is worth it.

I absolutely hated the Barmore extension last season because he hasn't proven himself enough to warrant that type of contract. But had he duplicated his 2023 season in 2024, Williams isn't signed for that amount of money as that would cause some major problems with Barmore. In fact, Barmore pretty much the entire season and was still more efficient than Williams.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The cap is crap. There are a million ways around it. Front-load the deal, push salary into a signing bonus, void year(s) to spread to the hit, build the contract with an out after year one, two, etc. The Broncos and Browns handed out two of the worst contracts in history, and it didn't slow them down. Courtland Sutton, Patrick Surtain, Mike McGlinchey, Zach Allen, Denzel Ward, Myles Garrett, David Njoku. All signed big contracts with their respective teams. Hell, even the Bengals, who were laughed at as the cheapest team in the league, just paid two receivers big money with a QB already on a big deal.

Maybe 20 years ago the cap mattered when the TV deals weren't crazy like they are now but the cap increases every year and the owners who are willing to spend can pay whomever they want. Stefon Diggs wouldn't prohibit them from doing a single thing for one minute of any deal he signs.

Yep. It's getting too easy to retain players with the cap skyrocketing every season. If a team really wants a player, they keep him. If they don't, they'll just say it's a "salary cap move".

 

[RobertWeathers]

What the NBA does right is if a team pays a player, they have to pay the entirety of the contract. The only way out is a trade.

Yep same with baseball, hockey, soccer. NFL is the only league in which contracts can be terminated.

I absolutely hated the Barmore extension last season because he hasn't proven himself enough to warrant that type of contract. But had he duplicated his 2023 season in 2024, Williams isn't signed for that amount of money as that would cause some major problems with Barmore. In fact, Barmore pretty much the entire season and was still more efficient than Williams.

In hindsight they should have let him go to FA but at the time he had all the leverage.

 

[TheRainMaker]

In hindsight they should have let him go to FA but at the time he had all the leverage.

Not sure if I'm reading it correctly, but Barmore would've been a FA today. They extended him with one year left after 2023. I would've let Barmore play it out and show me he could duplicate 2023. I'd have no problem paying more knowing what I'm probably getting in the future going forward. I just can't pay a guy after one year. Many players have fluke years.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not sure if I'm reading it correctly, but Barmore would've been a FA today. They extended him with one year left after 2023. I would've let Barmore play it out and show me he could duplicate 2023. I'd have no problem paying more knowing what I'm probably getting in the future going forward. I just can't pay a guy after one year. Many players have fluke years.

They rolled the dice and got burned. Hopefully he is healthy and can come back and live up to his deal.

 

[203Pat]

I don't think you mean to say the cap is crap. In the NBA and MLB the cap is crap because you can go over it but the NFL has a hard cap.

Correct. Teams can spend whatever they want every year. For players on the roster the can restructure and kick the cap can down the road. If they want to add dummy years until 2034 they can do so.

But there is still a hard cap and teams need to meet it's threshold at the start of the season.

There is a "hard cap" but at this point it is so easily manipulated. Every year some headline is out there about how the Saints are some crazy amount over the cap as the offseason begins and a week later they move some salary to signing bonuses, cut some guys that weren't going to be on the team, and they have $30 million in cap space. The cap is just a ledger but the cash spending is what is important.

I agree that there are many ways to manipulate the cap. but it is not crap because as you pointed out the Bengals were able to pay Burrow, Tee and Chase but if the cap was truly crap they would also be able to pay good OL and defensive players.

They can if they want to. With the value of these franchises rising and more and more owners looking to sell portions of their teams to private equity the owners that aren't super liquid (ie. super, super rich) are going to have to try and keep up. Mike Brown might be the "poorest" owner in the league as he is one of the original NFL families like the Rooney's, Halas's, Mara's, and Bidwell's all of whom inherited their wealth directly from their families owning an NFL team from the start. With some of the new owners coming into the league and the media deals the NFL is securing some of these legacy owners might have trouble keeping up in the long run.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Yep same with baseball, hockey, soccer. NFL is the only league in which contracts can be terminated.

What I also like about the NBA is that players have to meet a criteria in order to get paid a max contract, mid level, etc.. We're seeing too many players in the NFL that make you ask "who?" after getting big contracts.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There is a "hard cap" but at this point it is so easily manipulated. Every year some headline is out there about how the Saints are some crazy amount over the cap as the offseason begins and a week later they move some salary to signing bonuses, cut some guys that weren't going to be on the team, and they have $30 million in cap space. The cap is just a ledger but the cash spending is what is important.

Tell that to the Eagles. If it was so easy they would have kept Milton Williams, Slay, Sweat, and Bradbury and you can't say they didn't want them.

 

[Pape]

I'm ok eating dead money especially if the cap savings is sizable and the player is no longer performing at that level. The amount is the question.

Yes- I am aware deals can be structured in a variety of ways. It's all a matter of how big of a can do you want to kick down the road.


Risky deals are a part of life. I've made them. But size of the risk, potential downside, and risk tolerance are all heavily influenced risk profile of the asset.

That is why I was OK with the Milton Williams deal. Hes young, impact player, hasn't caused problems, and hasn't had a major injury whereas Diggs is old, injured, traded twice....but healthy is impact player so assuming some short-term risk is worth it.

make an assessment of the issue

we need quality wide receivers - check
Diggs has performed at a high level where ever he's been - check
is there anyone better out there? No, not anymore
Will the player make the team better? yes
is any potential dead money crippling? no, not when the cap is north of 270 million dollars
any potential losses will not hamper the team in a significant manner moving forward.

and lastly, we keep doing the same thing over and over, and its not working. time to do something else,

 

[Steve102]

make an assessment of the issue

we need wide quality receivers - check
Diggs has performed at a high level where ever he's been - check
is there anyone better out there? No, not anymore
Will the player make the team better? yes
is any potential dead money crippling? no, not when the cap is north of 270 million dollars
any potential losses will not hamper the team in a significant manner moving forward.

and lastly, we keep doing the same thing over and over, and its not working. time to do something else,

You're omitting the ACL and availability thing. That's a key part of the equation.

 

[Pape]

You're omitting the ACL and availability thing. That's a key part of the equation.

when was the last time you worried about a player not recovering from ACL surgery?

 

[Steve102]

when was the last time you worried about a player not recovering from ACL surgery?

Is the player going to be ready day one? There's reports on it being a maybe. Further... is he going to be himself this season? Also not a slam dunk. If it was an automatic, he'd be signed by someone. Clearly the other 31 teams aren't all in on him, either.

 

[RobertWeathers]

make an assessment of the issue

we need quality wide receivers - check
Diggs has performed at a high level where ever he's been - check
is there anyone better out there? No, not anymore
Will the player make the team better? yes
is any potential dead money crippling? no, not when the cap is north of 270 million dollars
any potential losses will not hamper the team in a significant manner moving forward.

You and I have already agreed we are OK with the player coming here. The question is absorbed cap hit/and future cap hit. Absorbed is fine as we have plenty of space. Future/dead money is a different question.

It's not just a matter of dead cap. It's extensions like Gonzalez, Maye, etc. It's anticipated FA spend because we still suck. All of this needs to be planned and how you do that is mitigating risk.

and lastly, we keep doing the same thing over and over, and its not working. time to do something else,

What is the team doing over and over? They've spent $638m in cash the last 3 years?

What they keep doing over and over is miss on draft picks that need to be starters, coaches do ****ty jobs, and lose games.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

There is a "hard cap" but at this point it is so easily manipulated. Every year some headline is out there about how the Saints are some crazy amount over the cap as the offseason begins and a week later they move some salary to signing bonuses, cut some guys that weren't going to be on the team, and they have $30 million in cap space. The cap is just a ledger but the cash spending is what is important.

They can if they want to. With the value of these franchises rising and more and more owners looking to sell portions of their teams to private equity the owners that aren't super liquid (ie. super, super rich) are going to have to try and keep up. Mike Brown might be the "poorest" owner in the league as he is one of the original NFL families like the Rooney's, Halas's, Mara's, and Bidwell's all of whom inherited their wealth directly from their families owning an NFL team from the start. With some of the new owners coming into the league and the media deals the NFL is securing some of these legacy owners might have trouble keeping up in the long run.

Look at the Browns. They already have $30 million total on the cap in void years for Deshaun Watson, and that's with a cap hit next season of over $80 million. Cutting him in 2026 will cost them over $50 million.

Yes, it can be manipulated, that's how they created cap space this year. But they're going to have to bite the bullet eventually.