Stefon Diggs visiting Patriots

[Pape]

I wouldn’t pay him 25 million a year

and that is exactly why we have won 8 games in our last 34 tilts.

 

[Huckleberry1]

and that is exactly why we have won 8 games in our last 34 tilts.

You think not overpaying 32 year old wide receivers is the reason they have been losing? I can give a host of better reasons any time you want.

Like I said, 18 million, we will see who is right?

 

[RobertWeathers]

It is happening. It occurs on a daily basis here. People are more worried about "overpaying" a player than they are wanting to actually secure their services.

They continually understate the current market value related to skill positions in order to make their arguments sound more reasonable. In this particular instance, I understand that paying Diggs $25m is a lot of money considering he is coming off of knee surgery. I get it. But I also know that we have not had a 1000 yard receiver since Julian Edelman was last here in 2019. We have been rebuffed by every single WR we have tried to bring in. Well, when fishing, sometimes you need the right lure in order to land the fish.

There are two things going on.

WRs aren't coming here because we don't want to overpay. They tried with Ridley, Aiyuk, and Godwin, etc.

They don't want to come here because they prefer their other team and personal situations over the cash.

Paying more when they aren't coming here for the money doesn't make sense.

WRs also aren't coming here because we have an unproven QB. Hopefully that changes.

What you say makes sense regarding the use of cap dollars, about wanting fiscally prudent contracts, cap flexibility & the cap being a finite resource. Its perfectly reasonable. It makes sense in a vacuum... But what good is that flexibility if you never use it?
The team does not spend other than what it is required to... The Patriots, for the last two years has been sitting on a pile of unspent cash/cap space that would have better served the Patriots by bringing in players to upgrade the roster... And yes, at times that means paying for talent or even overpaying for talent...

They have spent $637.1 million in cash the last three years. That is 99.8% of the cap. You can't spend much more than that. Saying they don't spend or only spend what is required is not accurate. You can certainly argue that they haven't spent it on the right players.

you do not get $121,000,000+ in cap space by spending money, paying players... In fact I think we overpaid our guys last year just to ensure we would not run afoul of the CBA mandated minimum spending threshold requirements... looking at free agency in 2025, we paid out a lot for guys this year, and we still have a league leading 80 million dollars + in cap space.

With 120,000,000 million in cap space available, we should have had Miles Garrett playing in New England, not Milton Williams (no offense Milton, I'm sure you will do fine). When asked about New England, DK Metcalf should not been so quick to poo poo being here...

They didn't spend because their players sucked and the coach gave zero direction to the type of players to acquire. They also allotted money to WRs that chose not to come here. It happens.

I don't agree with going after Garrett. That was an absurdly stupid contract. That is why the Browns are the Browns.

We philosophically disagree here. I don't believe in spending just to spend but rather spend when value commensurate with the investment is close to being realized. If that doesn't happen until the following year then so be it.

 

[Pape]

I don't get how that fallacious reasoning keeps rising up when no one of consequence is saying the Pats shouldn't spend. Okay, I understand why some people say it. But when folks whose stuff is usually fairly solid promulgate it, I am at a loss. Is it because we're seeing it posted so often from a few of the **** stirrers that it's somehow become a thing to others?

The vast majority of folks seem to understand that cap dollars spent on a player who is questionable for one reason or another are cap dollars that aren't available to invest elsewhere. It's surprisingly refreshing to see a fair share of the fan base recognize the cap as a finite resource that needs to be treated that way. No one here honestly thinks the team needs to not spend so Kraft can keep it, it's nonsense. But nonsense that gets repeated enough can take on a life of its own.

a lot of times the argument surrounding the cash, the cap and cap space boils down to this - "we will need the money/flexibility if an opportunity comes our way... If we spend the cap/cash now, that door will be shut." The issue comes down to this... That opportunity has not arrived in the last decade. What game changing player has decided to come here since 2015? When has that flexibility actually helped us?

In fact, the way this team treats the cap, it has hurt us. It bit us squarely in the ass with Brady. After we beat the Rams, Bob Kraft should have dropped a 4 year 100-125 million dollar contract in Toms lap and said "sign here, stay in New England until you are 45"

 

[mgteich]

We have the money to spend. I don't know if we "overpay" just get some talent in the building. I never understand why so many on this board are worried about saving Kraft money.

No one is worried about Kraft money. The issue is cap money.

Consider signing a WR for $25M AAV for 3 years, with a $30M signing bonus and salaries of $5M, $15M and $25M (and necessary guarantees). The 2026 cap hit would be $25M out of the $35M now available.

I would do that for the right player, but we should NOT make believe that cost doesn't matter.

 

[Steve102]

It is happening. It occurs on a daily basis here. People are more worried about "overpaying" a player than they are wanting to actually secure their services.

They continually understate the current market value related to skill positions in order to make their arguments sound more reasonable. In this particular instance, I understand that paying Diggs $25m is a lot of money considering he is coming off of knee surgery. I get it. But I also know that we have not had a 1000 yard receiver since Julian Edelman was last here in 2019. We have been rebuffed by every single WR we have tried to bring in. Well, when fishing, sometimes you need the right lure in order to land the fish.

What you say makes sense regarding the use of cap dollars, about wanting fiscally prudent contracts, cap flexibility & the cap being a finite resource. Its perfectly reasonable. It makes sense in a vacuum... But what good is that flexibility if you never use it? What happens when that "what if" scenario never arrives? you get back to back 4 win seasons, thats what happens

The team does not spend other than what it is required to... The Patriots, for the last two years has been sitting on a pile of unspent cash/cap space that would have better served the Patriots by bringing in players to upgrade the roster... And yes, at times that means paying for talent or even overpaying for talent...

you do not get $121,000,000+ in cap space by spending money, paying players... In fact I think we overpaid our guys last year just to ensure we would not run afoul of the CBA mandated minimum spending threshold requirements... looking at free agency in 2025, we paid out a lot for guys this year, and we still have a league leading 80 million dollars + in cap space.

With 120,000,000 million in cap space available at the start of free agency, we should have had Miles Garrett playing in New England, not Milton Williams (no offense Milton, I'm sure you will do fine). When asked about New England, DK Metcalf should not been so quick to poo poo being here... we wanted Calvin Ridley badly last year and got outbid - by Tenneessee? We let Jakobi Meyers leave over a few million dollars?

How does that happen ? It happens when you stock pile your fiscal assets instead of actually using your financial flexibility

I think you have to look at what the market will bear on this player. I think healthy, yeah, he's $25m. Coming off ACL? Nah. Is the player setting his number? Is the reported $25m just forum/online/twitter BS? I have no idea. Looking at the Cooper Kupp deal, 3/45 seems to be the marketplace for a guy on the wrong side of of 30 years old. I think Diggs is better by a lot, but Kupp didn't have ACL last year. My initial reaction was that Diggs would probably find a market that was 18-22m, so if you gave him the same 3 year deal but at the higher number, then 3 years in the mid to high 50's is team friendly, 3/60 would not be low, and 3/75 would be too much. Now you're getting close to the elite, high production guys in their prime.

With the reports of Diggs being a good citizen for a little bit, either a team friendly 3 year deal, a 2 year "fair deal" or a 1 year deal where you kinda give in seems to be where this is headed. I would not be shocked if he gets 3/60.

Your other point of Meyers leaving over a few million bucks doesn't tell the whole story, IMO. Reports were out that he was part of the mutiny of taking things off campus with Jones along with Jake Bailey and Damien Lewis. I think Belichick was at his peak curmudgeonliness after the 2022 season, and the result in 2023 bore a locker room that had tuned out. I think Bill certainly played hardball with Meyers and Meyers, wisely, left the sinking ship.

 

[Lansdowne]

Whatever we pay Diggs would have to be considerably more than what the rest of the market is offering. The suck tax plus the MA tax means we are not getting these reasonable deals that other teams around the league might get for a guy like Diggs. His market is quiet and he is being given time to explore it before coming back to the Pats with a counter.

 

[Pape]

There are two things going on.
WRs aren't coming here because we don't want to overpay. They tried with Ridley, Aiyuk, and Godwin, etc. They don't want to come here because they prefer their other team and personal situations over the cash.

That is part of it, absolutely... why would players want to leave a team that is in the thick of it, go to a rebuilding team? I understand that. But Ridley though? mercenary. Signed for more money. Meyers? left because we low balled him.

Paying more when they aren't coming here for the money doesn't make sense.

They aren't coming here at all. so who is overpaying?

WRs also aren't coming here because we have an unproven QB. Hopefully that changes.

They have spent $637.1 million in cash the last three years. That is 99.8% of the cap. You can't spend much more than that. Saying they don't spend or only spend what is required is not accurate. You can certainly argue that they haven't spent it on the right players.

2020 we were 30th in spending
2021 we were 4th in spending
2022 we were 26th in spending
2023 we were 31st in spending
2024 we were 18th in spending

What you are saying is not only not accurate, it belies the roster moves this team has made. You can see it on the roster - You can see the difference in talent when they have spent money. and when they havent.

They didn't spend because their players sucked and the coach gave zero direction to the type of players to acquire. They also allotted money to WRs that chose not to come here. It happens.

Then spend to get better player. This is exactly what I am talking about - Having all the financial flexibility in the world won't help if you don's use it.

I don't agree with going after Garrett. That was an absurdly stupid contract. That is why the Browns are the Browns.

the browns made the playoffs more recently than we did... glass houses and all that...

We philosophically disagree here. I don't believe in spending just to spend but rather spend when value commensurate with the investment is close to being realized. If that doesn't happen until the following year then so be it.

spending just to spend? No one has advocated that. In this particular instance I want to spend because 1 Diggs is a good player. 2 We desperatelly need to upgrade to receiver room. 3. Talent attracts talent.

Spending to upgrade the roster? Yes. We need to do that, and we haven't. In years.

and "waiting for value commensurtate with the investment" is a great theory. But I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting.

 

[Pape]

I can give a host of better reasons any time you want.

I want. So, please... opine

 

[Pape]

I think you have to look at what the market will bear on this player. I think healthy, yeah, he's $25m. Coming off ACL? Nah.

I think you pay him his market rate. 25m, or like last year 22.5m. whatever. I wouldnt try to give him a haircut because of the injury. I think this team is in a position where it has to be bold. And if that means adding a financial incentive to get him to sign? You do it.

Is the player setting his number? Is the reported $25m just forum/online/twitter BS? I have no idea.

Does it matter? You have a baseline of what he found acceptable in Houston last year. 22.5 million dollars. People are conflating this into an issue and it isn't one.

Looking at the Cooper Kupp deal, 3/45 seems to be the marketplace for a guy on the wrong side of of 30 years old. I think Diggs is better by a lot, but Kupp didn't have ACL last year.

To me, its not the same market... Cooper Kupp, who I would have liked to sign, hasn't played a full season of football in the last three years. Until his injury Diggs has been health and available...

My initial reaction was that Diggs would probably find a market that was 18-22m, so if you gave him the same 3 year deal but at the higher number, then 3 years in the mid to high 50's is team friendly, 3/60 would not be low, and 3/75 would be too much. Now you're getting close to the elite, high production guys in their prime.

Elite High production guys are in the 30 million dollar Plus range now.

Its all about the guaranteed money. The AAV is the ego boost. 3/75 is reasonable to me. Just depends on the guarantees, doesn't it?

With the reports of Diggs being a good citizen for a little bit, either a team friendly 3 year deal, a 2 year "fair deal" or a 1 year deal where you kinda give in seems to be where this is headed. I would not be shocked if he gets 3/60.

If he would sign here for that, I'm happy as a clam. Who rank quite high on the happy index afaik.

Your other point of Meyers leaving over a few million bucks doesn't tell the whole story, IMO. Reports were out that he was part of the mutiny of taking things off campus with Jones along with Jake Bailey and Damien Lewis. I think Belichick was at his peak curmudgeonliness after the 2022 season, and the result in 2023 bore a locker room that had tuned out. I think Bill certainly played hardball with Meyers and Meyers, wisely, left the sinking ship.

to the point, from Meyers himself, the Patriots were "inflexible" in their salary negotiations. They let him walk over a few million dollars.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is part of it, absolutely... why would players want to leave a team that is in the thick of it, go to a rebuilding team? I understand that. But Ridley though? mercenary. Signed for more money. Meyers? left because we low balled him.

They aren't coming here at all. so who is overpaying?

Ridley stayed local. They f-ed up on Meyers but I think there was more to that.

2020 we were 30th in spending
2021 we were 4th in spending
2022 we were 26th in spending
2023 we were 31st in spending
2024 we were 18th in spending

What you are saying is not only not accurate, it belies the roster moves this team has made. You can see it on the roster - You can see the difference in talent when they have spent money. and when they havent.

Cash spending/cap space is not annually congruent.

Curran: Are the Patriots cheap? The evidence says no

Tom E. Curran analyzes the Patriots’ recent spending and what the future might look like.

www.nbcsportsboston.com

Then spend to get better player. This is exactly what I am talking about - Having all the financial flexibility in the world won't help if you don's use it.

the browns made the playoffs more recently than we did... glass houses and all that...

The Browns made the playoffs not because of over-spending but good drafting and coaching.

spending just to spend? No one has advocated that.

I see it on this board. "Just use the cap space!"

In this particular instance I want to spend because 1 Diggs is a good player. 2 We desperatelly need to upgrade to receiver room. 3. Talent attracts talent.

Yes but the attitude of paying the player whatever he wants is wrong.

Spending to upgrade the roster? Yes. We need to do that, and we haven't. In years.

They did in 2021. Again, you can argue if they spent it on the right players.

and "waiting for value commensurtate with the investment" is a great theory. But I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting.

It's not a theory. It's a basic financial principal. With that said dropping $104m on Milton Williams is high BUT he clearly is the key to what they want to do on D. Plus hes young and productive. The life of that contract makes sense. Dropping $25m in guarantees on a player who can't play football right now is beyond irresponsible.

 

[Steve102]

I think you pay him his market rate. 25m, or like last year 22.5m. whatever. I wouldnt try to give him a haircut because of the injury. I think this team is in a position where it has to be bold. And if that means adding a financial incentive to get him to sign? You do it.

I think the market as a whole gives him a haircut because of the ACL and age. There's too many examples of this being the case.

Does it matter? You have a baseline of what he found acceptable in Houston last year. 22.5 million dollars. People are conflating this into an issue and it isn't one.

See above. If the market dictates a haircut and the player is dictating raise, someone is going to be unhappy.

To me, its not the same market... Cooper Kupp, who I would have liked to sign, hasn't played a full season of football in the last three years. Until his injury Diggs has been health and available...

Agreed, but the numbers I threw out there are all higher than Kupp's, based on the things you mention.

Elite High production guys are in the 30 million dollar Plus range now.

He's not elite high production. He's the next tier down, but the top of it. He's really eff'n good.

Its all about the guaranteed money. The AAV is the ego boost. 3/75 is reasonable to me. Just depends on the guarantees, doesn't it?

If he would sign here for that, I'm happy as a clam. Who rank quite high on the happy index afaik.

I am not sure what you're saying here, but 3/75 seems ceiling. Healthy? All day.

to the point, from Meyers himself, the Patriots were "inflexible" in their salary negotiations. They let him walk over a few million dollars.

Splitting hairs. Belichick was playing "FU, that's it, I don't really want your mutinous ass here anyway. Team friendly or get the eff out." So, ya, they were inflexible, because Belichick was an asshat who, it appears, thought he could get any schmoe to play WR like he could get any schmoe to be OC. Meyers was a casualty of Bill's inflexibility on everything at the end.

 

[Pape]

It's not a theory. It's a basic financial principal. With that said dropping $104m on Milton Williams is high BUT he clearly is the key to what they want to do on D. Plus hes young and productive. The life of that contract makes sense. Dropping $25m in gaurantees on a player who can't play football right now is beyond irresponsible.

Williams has been the only exception to the rule in the last decade.

So, yeah, its basically been a theory up until this point.

I never said guarantee 25 million dollars to Diggs. That's part of the problem - You, and others, read what you want to read. You think me saying pay Diggs 25 million dollars a year means hand over all that in guaranteed money? it does not. And based the way contracts in the league are structured you should know that.

 

[Steve102]

Williams has been the only exception to the rule in the last decade.

We need to move on as a fan base. The last decade was Bill, followed by Mayo walking around going...


The adults are in charge now, not grumpy Bill or Clueless Jerod.

 

[Pape]

I think the market as a whole gives him a haircut because of the ACL and age. There's too many examples of this being the case.

See above. If the market dictates a haircut and the player is dictating raise, someone is going to be unhappy.

Agreed, but the numbers a threw out there are all higher than Kupp's, based on the things you mention.

He's been better than Kupp. Has a better track record than Kupp. Walmart vs Target. and we need Targets.

He's not elite high production. He's the next tier down, but the top of it. He's really eff'n good.

You are confusing me here... Agreed he's not elite, or if he is, he shouldn't be due to the injury... Slot him in the next tier down which is fair... The elite high production guys are popping 30 now, 25 sure looks like it fits like a glove....

I am not sure what you're saying here, but 3/75 seems ceiling. Healthy? All day.

3/75 gets the player here. Its not a huge overpay. As i said before, it all depends on the guaratees.

Splitting hairs. Belichick was playing "FU, that's it, I don't really want your mutinous ass here anyway. Team friendly or get the eff out." So, ya, they were inflexible, because Belichick was an asshat who, it appears, thought he could get any schmoe to play WR like he could get any schmoe to be OC. Meyers was a casualty of Bill's inflexibility on everything at the end.

yeah, hairs. Hard to negotiate when the other side won't. Regardless of the reason why, he left. And that never should have happened.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Williams has been the only exception to the rule in the last decade. So, yeah, its basically been a theory up until this point.

Not true. Since 2015, Gilmore, Ownenu, Barmore, McCourty, Marcus Cannon, Mason, Jonnu, Judon were all paid top 5 or higher at their positions at one time or another.

I never said guarantee 25 million dollars to Diggs. That's part of the problem - You, and others, read what you want to read. You think me saying pay Diggs 25 million dollars a year means hand over all that in guaranteed money? it does not. And based the way contracts in the league are structured you should know that.

So what do you want to pay him right now?

 

[maust]

a lot of times the argument surrounding the cash, the cap and cap space boils down to this - "we will need the money/flexibility if an opportunity comes our way... If we spend the cap/cash now, that door will be shut." The issue comes down to this... That opportunity has not arrived in the last decade. What game changing player has decided to come here since 2015? When has that flexibility actually helped us?

In fact, the way this team treats the cap, it has hurt us. It bit us squarely in the ass with Brady. After we beat the Rams, Bob Kraft should have dropped a 4 year 100-125 million dollar contract in Toms lap and said "sign here, stay in New England until you are 45"

I think what we need (and frankly what has been lacking for years) is a front office that makes those opportunities happen. Hopefully with a new sheriff in town the Pats will be less passive in that regard.

 

[Pape]

Not true. Since 2015, Gilmore, Ownenu, Barmore, McCourty, Marcus Cannon, Mason, Jonnu, Judon were all paid top 5 or higher at their positions at one time or another.

So what do you want to pay him right now?

i would prefer a three year deal... 25m aav... Get him to sign, match his number from Houston last year, 22.5m in year 1...

guarantees? Honestly, I don't know... something tied to his availability... games played, injury, etc

 

[Steve102]

I think what we need (and frankly what has been lacking for years) is a front office that makes those opportunities happen. Hopefully with a new sheriff in town the Pats will be less passive in that regard.

I don't think Bill was passive. Bill was hardnosed, or hardline, or whatever ridiculous adjective you want to give.

I had a whole paragraph on why this worked until it didn't, but I decided to not go down the rabbit hole.

 

[RobertWeathers]

i would prefer a three year deal... 25m aav... Get him to sign, match his number from Houston last year, 22.5m in year 1...

guarantees? Honestly, I don't know... something tied to his availability... games played, injury, etc

3 yr deal allows them to spread the cap hit in case he is a bust. However for older players it can bite you in the ass down the road.

I agree on having some kind of variables snaps, catches, yards, wins, etc.

As we've been debating it really depends on the current market and recent history for an older player coming off a major injury. Clearly no other team is chomping at the bit for his servies.

2025 NFL Free Agents

Tracking the status and signings of all NFL free agents.

www.spotrac.com