Patriots Player Departure LG Michael Jordan released

[sb1]

This is illogical nonsense.

If nothing changed, nothing changed, Kraft said they were going to do things differently.

Bill was GM until January 2024 with full control. So ya nothing changed unless he was fired or demoted sooner and I wasn’t aware of it.

If someone made a bad recommendation to Bill and Bill picked him anyway in the draft that’s still 100% on Bill as GM.

I can't believe there are people here that think Bill did all the scouting prior to 2020.

Red herring. Nobody said that.

 

[upstater1]

Sure that's a massive list of JAG's.
However, at some point, you have to look at coaching & scheme. If Scar had 11 guys - who were decent draft prospects or on previous NFL teams, could he field a serviceable NFL OL? The answer has been proven - YES - time and time again.

This staff has no clue what they're doing - on either side of the ball. And no, the GM has not helped matters either.

This is my argument. You can't be wrong 30 times and only get it right 2x and then turn around and say "the players suck." This is what I said at5 the beginning. This is a defense of Wolf. I have been down as Wolf as many here all season long, mainly because of the draft (I posted negative takes of Polk in December and January long before we drafted him, also a PSU fan so I've seen 50+ games of Wallace), but recently I said I'm taking some of my criticism back of Wolf (for instance, when it comes to Jaylinn Hawkins, who I thought was a bust, and now I'm saying it's very likely not Hawkins's fault; and now also seeing the vast amount of resources we've expended on the OL, and 5% of these guys have worked out?)

 

[upstater1]

Bill was GM until January 2024 with full control. So ya nothing changed unless he was fired or demoted sooner and I wasn’t aware of it.

If someone made a bad recommendation to Bill and Bill picked him anyway in the draft that’s still 100% on Bill as GM.

Red herring. Nobody said that.

You just ignored everything I wrote. There's no point in talking to you.

 

[sb1]

You just ignored everything I wrote. There's no point in talking to you.

No I didn’t and theres nothing illogical about my reply. You’re implying Kraft said they were going to do things differently and be more collaborative.

Ok, but Bill was still the GM. They can be as collaborative as they wanted but nothing really changed until January.

 

[upstater1]

No I didn’t and theres nothing illogical about my reply. You’re implying Kraft said they were going to do things differently and be more collaborative.

Ok, but Bill was still the GM. They can be as collaborative as they wanted but nothing really changed until January.

Bill was ALWAYS the GM.

That's the point.

His control changed in 2020.

 

[maust]

This is a cap discussion.

So are you saying that BOTH ways the 5th year rookie cap would be EXACTLY the same?

As I understood it, Mac Jones had lost a lot of his rookie contract benefit by making the pro bowl.

Can you clarify what you mean by 'both ways' please? The team's ability to exercise the fith year option does not change, only the cost. If a player makes two or more Pro Bowls the value of his 5th year option is the franchise tag for his position. If he makes one Pro Bowl the 5th year is equal to the transition tag's value. If he does not make the Pro Bowl the value is less and based on his snap percentage, it could range from a high of equal to the third biggest contract at his position to as low as the 20th.

Making the Pro Bowl only increases the value of the 5th year option, it never hurts it.

 

[sb1]

Bill was ALWAYS the GM.

That's the point.

His control changed in 2020.

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2021/04/05/report-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-draft/\

With that in mind, Breer suggests the change in approach Kraft mentions revolves around Belichick opening up the floor to more voices to weigh in on prospects, “not just to his top guys, [new director of player personnel] Dave Ziegler and [scouting consultant] Eliot Wolf, but also those rising through the organization, like national scout Matt Groh.”

This is the "collaboration" that people talk about. Before Bill was overruling his scouts on a hunch. That part changed, yes. But that says nothing about Bill losing the total control he had as a GM. That never happened. A GM's "total control" doesn't mean he's a dictator it means he is responsible for everything related to personnel and everyone reporting to him. That aspect didn't change at all. So everything good or bad still falls on BB like it would with any leader in any organization or corporation.

After BB was let go Kraft said he ruled out the option of keeping him as just coach because "it wouldn't work" - so why would a demotion work?

 

[upstater1]

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2021/04/05/report-bill-belichick-robert-kraft-draft/\

With that in mind, Breer suggests the change in approach Kraft mentions revolves around Belichick opening up the floor to more voices to weigh in on prospects, “not just to his top guys, [new director of player personnel] Dave Ziegler and [scouting consultant] Eliot Wolf, but also those rising through the organization, like national scout Matt Groh.”

This is the "collaboration" that people talk about. Before Bill was overruling his scouts on a hunch. That part changed, yes. But that says nothing about Bill losing the total control he had as a GM. That never happened. A GM's "total control" doesn't mean he's a dictator it means he is responsible for everything related to personnel and everyone reporting to him. That aspect didn't change at all. So everything good or bad still falls on BB like it would with any leader in any organization or corporation.

After BB was let go Kraft said he ruled out the option of keeping him as just coach because "it wouldn't work" - so why would a demotion work?

Bill did this all the time prior to 2020. He listened to scouts and personnel guys. He did not scout players themselves.

What you're saying here is that nothing changed.

 

[jdlboot14]

With Wolf - it's fair to give him another year. He was trying to draw guys to the worst team in NFL with NOTHING left here.
GOAT HC was gone, no known talent, unknown starting QB (during FA), and all new staff. That's why we got bottom of the barrel guys. But, what Maye has done has been admirable. Shown that there's something to build around.
This FA & Draft will be Wolf's evaluation.

I still believe the decisions on the coaching staff is more important. We need at least 1 of the coordinators to be upgraded.

 

[sb1]

Bill did this all the time prior to 2020. He listened to scouts and personnel guys. He did not scout players themselves.

What you're saying here is that nothing changed.

But nobody is saying Bill scouted players himself. That wasn't his job.

 

[upstater1]

But nobody is saying Bill scouted players himself. That wasn't his job.

Ugh... I don't know why this is so difficult. Something changed. So what changed? All you described to me are the very things he did prior to 2020.

 

[Sciz]

Can you clarify what you mean by 'both ways' please? The team's ability to exercise the fith year option does not change, only the cost. If a player makes two or more Pro Bowls the value of his 5th year option is the franchise tag for his position. If he makes one Pro Bowl the 5th year is equal to the transition tag's value. If he does not make the Pro Bowl the value is less and based on his snap percentage, it could range from a high of equal to the third biggest contract at his position to as low as the 20th.

Making the Pro Bowl only increases the value of the 5th year option, it never hurts it.

This is all moot in the context of Mac Jones. Only the Pro Bowl original ballot counts for the sake of the fifth year option, not alternates.

 

[maust]

This is all moot in the context of Mac Jones. Only the Pro Bowl original ballot counts for the sake of the fifth year option, not alternates.

All kinda moot in the context of Mac Jones cause he wasn't gettin' a 4th year here never mind getting paid the equivalent of the transition tag for a 5th. The only thing he was close to transitioning to was I-95 South

 

[Stu Pidassle]

There goes the theory that Jordon was cut due to attitude issues. Strange is out this week, so the simplest answer is that he was cut to make a roster spot for the guy they just signed. He must have lost the starters job and became the guy to let go.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Not sure what your answer has to do with what I said above. Seems a non-sequitir.

I was proven wrong. But it really doesn't matter. I was saying I thought Klemm was crazy for attacking Wolf. Whether it was Wolf or our pro personnel guy Groh really isn't the point. I was saying that in retrospect, Klemm doesn't seem so crazy.

I was wrong about it being Wolf. But I still stand by the general gist of what I was saying.

As for Kraft, if a guy is a liar, that's on him. Not me.

AND I readily say there are decisions that are obviously Belichick's, like Harry. But then there are people like Callahan who report internal discussions, like Belichick wanting to wait for a 3rd rd QB in '21, or preferring Jakobi over JuJu.

Are we supposed to ignore these things?

Lastly, Belichick had absolute control for 20 years. Then Kraft said he met with Belichick and that things were going to change.

We know absolutely that Kraft ignored Belichick's wishes when he reinstalled Guerrero despite the objections of the assistant coaches. There is a pattern here, as much as people want to wash it aside and ignore ot. It's actually plain and evident.

But the sequence is key. Belichick went from total control, to then being told things would be done differently, and we have Callahan using instances of when Belichick's assessment did not win the day.

Whatever the dynamic is, things changed in 2020. That much is known and acknowledged by all. It could very well be that it was expected that Bill would accede to the scout/personnel team's wishes at times, even while remaining in control.

What he couldn't do anymore is run the thing by making imperious decisions, whether that meant banning Guerrero to appease the assistant coaches or making every single personnel decision even if against the wishes of the scouts/personnel.

We’re going around in circles. You take Kraft at his word when it suits you, and dismiss him as a liar when it doesn’t.

 

[PWRxWLF]

According to Patriots.Com’s injury report, Robinson is getting the start at LG.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Ok so I don't want posters as GM either.

Is that your argument that he's done a good job?

That he's at the level of arm chair amateurs?

My argument is that he inherited Belichick’s ****ty team and Kraft’s coach, who is clearly doing a poor job. A GM needs at least 3 years to turn a failing franchise around, and Wolf has already chosen their franchise QB. It’s far too early to pass judgement on him, and those that are clearly would have fired Belichick during his first season, as that was a failure as well. And they would have cut Brady because he didn’t do anything his rookie season either. It’s instant success or nothing for some fans, and that’s the model the Jets operate on, and the reason they always suck.

 

[upstater1]

We’re going around in circles. You take Kraft at his word when it suits you, and dismiss him as a liar when it doesn’t.

You're doing the same thing.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Not sure what your answer has to do with what I said above. Seems a non-sequitir.

I was proven wrong. But it really doesn't matter. I was saying I thought Klemm was crazy for attacking Wolf. Whether it was Wolf or our pro personnel guy Groh really isn't the point. I was saying that in retrospect, Klemm doesn't seem so crazy.

I was wrong about it being Wolf. But I still stand by the general gist of what I was saying.

As for Kraft, if a guy is a liar, that's on him. Not me.

AND I readily say there are decisions that are obviously Belichick's, like Harry. But then there are people like Callahan who report internal discussions, like Belichick wanting to wait for a 3rd rd QB in '21, or preferring Jakobi over JuJu.

Are we supposed to ignore these things?

Lastly, Belichick had absolute control for 20 years. Then Kraft said he met with Belichick and that things were going to change.

We know absolutely that Kraft ignored Belichick's wishes when he reinstalled Guerrero despite the objections of the assistant coaches. There is a pattern here, as much as people want to wash it aside and ignore ot. It's actually plain and evident.

But the sequence is key. Belichick went from total control, to then being told things would be done differently, and we have Callahan using instances of when Belichick's assessment did not win the day.

Whatever the dynamic is, things changed in 2020. That much is known and acknowledged by all. It could very well be that it was expected that Bill would accede to the scout/personnel team's wishes at times, even while remaining in control.

What he couldn't do anymore is run the thing by making imperious decisions, whether that meant banning Guerrero to appease the assistant coaches or making every single personnel decision even if against the wishes of the scouts/personnel.

You’re the one who posted a bunch of OL that didn’t or haven’t worked out, and blamed it on Wolf, when the majority were brought by Belichick. Now you say it doesn’t matter who you blamed.

 

[upstater1]

You’re the one who posted a bunch of OL that didn’t or haven’t worked out, and blamed it on Wolf, when the majority were brought by Belichick. Now you say it doesn’t matter who you blamed.

I don't know howmmany times I have to correct you that that's just not true. I mean, I listed them again for you.

I've done it twice already.

This is crazy.

Belichick was not with the Patriots after February.