OT: Boston GREATS top 10

[40yrpatsfan]

I'm not under 35.

Ortiz is not just a better player than Yastremski, he's a dramatically better player, it's really not even close. Yaz got into the hall on longevity. And Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher to ever wear a Red Sox uniform, and that's not really even close either. Clemens was really good at times, but Pedro was dominant against juiced players.

Well, Ortiz is not in the hall, he never had a season like Yaz's '67 season, and he never played the field either. So as much as I love him, it's not as clear as you're saying.

 

[maust]

Well, Ortiz in not in the hall, and he never had a season like Yaz's '67 season, and he never played the field either. So as much as I love him, it's not as clear as you're saying.

David Ortiz HoF class of '22. Not sure how you missed it...

 

[TommyD4207]

Well, Ortiz in not in the hall, and he never had a season like Yaz's '67 season, and he never played the field either. So as much as I love him, it's not as clear as you're saying.

1) He is in the hall.
2) Every year from 2004-2007 was better than Yasztremski's 1967. Also, he has 3 rings, Yaz never won ****.

 

[BobDigital]

I must agree.

The Sox and Celts owned Boston until Brady.

Brady
Orr
Russell
Williams
Bird
Hannah
Ortiz
Gronk
Bourque
Padro?

Ortiz is higher than his talent due to leadership and clutch ability. Williams deserves top 4. A single hitter simply can't carry a team. Russell is 3 due to dominating in a weaker era.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Brady
Orr
Russell
Williams
Bird
Hannah
Ortiz
Gronk
Bourque
Padro?

Ortiz is higher than his talent due to leadership and clutch ability. Williams deserves top 4. A single hitter simply can't carry a team. Russell is 3 due to dominating in a weaker era.

This is a good list. Is this player considered the greatest at his position either by peak or longevity? Important question.

Brady - Yes
Orr - Yes
Russell - Sort of (by championship count)
Williams - No (but as a hitter, arguably)
Hannah - Yes (but a less spotlight position)
Ortiz - Yes (but DH kind of a negative)
Gronk - Yes (but peak only)
Bourque - No (but up there)
Pedro - Yes (at peak, or right among best)

 

[Clonamery]

Yaz was a better player than Papi, change my mind

"An All Star from the neck down". (Ed Stankey)

 

[40yrpatsfan]

David Ortiz HoF class of '22. Not sure how you missed it...

My bad, blanked on that.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

This is a good list. Is this player considered the greatest at his position either by peak or longevity? Important question.

Brady - Yes
Orr - Yes
Russell - Sort of (by championship count)
Williams - No (but as a hitter, arguably)
Hannah - Yes (but a less spotlight position)
Ortiz - Yes (but DH kind of a negative)
Gronk - Yes (but peak only)
Bourque - No (but up there)
Pedro - Yes (at peak, or right among best)

Williams can easily be a Yes.

 

[Steve102]

Deciding between Russell and Brady is tough. Bill won more titles but that's easier to do in basketball than football because of single game eliminations in football. But damn, 11 wins during his 13 years is incredible. And two as the player/coach to finish it off says a lot.

I'd put these players on the list of all time greatest and not just Boston.
Russell, Bird, Brady, Gronk, Hannah, Orr, Pedro and Williams. They were all the best at what they did.

I'd throw Auerbach in there as both a coach and a GM too. And to top it off I've been blessed enough to have seen Red and every one of those players in person.

I'll second your vote for Russell over Brady. Bill dealt with a lot of racial stuff as well, and all he did is win. Williams should be ahead of Papi and Pedro as well.

 

[BobDigital]

This is a good list. Is this player considered the greatest at his position either by peak or longevity? Important question.

Brady - Yes
Orr - Yes
Russell - Sort of (by championship count)
Williams - No (but as a hitter, arguably)
Hannah - Yes (but a less spotlight position)
Ortiz - Yes (but DH kind of a negative)
Gronk - Yes (but peak only)
Bourque - No (but up there)
Pedro - Yes (at peak, or right among best)

That was my thinking in large part. Bird is underrated slightly from a peak perspective. When he was 100% healthy he's top 3 maybe top 2. Sadly he wasn't completely healthy as much as we'd like.

I put Ortiz over Gronk cause of his injury issues. Just missed too much time. And often hurt at the worst possible times

Padro is similar to Gronk but worse as his peak was so short lived and even at his peak he wasn't a guy who often pitched deep into games iirc. Besides peak Gronk is the best TE. Peak Padro is maybe the best pitcher.

Williams probably is the goat hitter, but home runs matter a lot when talking about hitters. Not to say he didn't have pop, but if he broke Ruth's record (or came close) it wouldn't even be a conversation who the goat hitter is. Sadly he only hit over 40 home runs once. Which is a bit of a red mark even though that was really good for his era and he lead the league in homers multiple times.

 

[State]

1. Scott Secules
2. Alla Abdelnaby
3. Ras - i Dowling
4. Jody Reed
5. Greg Kite
6. Big Baby Davis
7. Tom Brady
8. Len Bias
9. Michael Bishop
10. Donald Hayes

You forgot Hart Lee Dykes.

 

[Thelonious]

I'd put Orr #2, even #1. Brady mastered the art of quarterback play. Orr transformed his sport, certainly his position. I watched Orr play in person a few times. Every time he got on the ice, all of a sudden everything made sense, every other player's position suddenly made sense. If it didn't, he'd move a few yards or pass the puck off and then it all made sense. He was a defenseman who orchestrated the offense without sacrificing any of his defensive responsiblities. That's why he was able to contribute even after he could barely skate any more because of the ruined knees. His sense of the game was just remarkable.

 

[BobDigital]

I'd put Orr #2, even #1. Brady mastered the art of quarterback play. Orr transformed his sport, certainly his position. I watched Orr play in person a few times. Every time he got on the ice, all of a sudden everything made sense, every other player's position suddenly made sense. If it didn't, he'd move a few yards or pass the puck off and then it all made sense. He was a defenseman who orchestrated the offense without sacrificing any of his defensive responsiblities. That's why he was able to contribute even after he could barely skate any more because of the ruined knees. His sense of the game was just remarkable.

It is kind of unfair to compare them that way. Orr's style could be duplicated by many players and it is the kind of sport where one player isn't as beholden to others.

 

[lancerman]

I can’t see the argument for Williams to be anywhere below 7

I mean objectively he should be ahead of every other Red Sox player.

 

[lancerman]

Btw Brady is easily number 1.

Brady played in the most competitive era in football against and his peers were absolute phenoms. He still came out of it widely being considered the GOAT.

You talk hockey and most fans will say Gretzky was the GOAT. Only hardcore Boston fans and some oldtimers argue Orr or Howe.

You talk basketball and Jordan is almost always considered the GOAT. Russell still has fans debate him against Wilt. Bird still has fans debate him against Magic. Brady lapped his main rival in Peyton Manning and then blew Montana out of the water.

Baseball, Boston does have one athlete who is widely considered the GOAT. It just happens to be Babe Ruth who is more famous as a Yankee.

 

[BillyD90123]

Ted Williams at 10? He was pretty much regarded as one of, if not, baseballs greatest hitter.

Really? No Bobby Orr.

 

[1960Pats]

Russell is 3 due to dominating in a weaker era.

This is flat out wrong and it bugs me every time I see it.

The NBA was much stronger in Russell's era than it is today. Take away half the teams in the NBA right now and redraft the players. That was the Russell era. Throw in Red Auerbach and you have the greatest run in NBA history.

Russell's last title came as a player/coach against the Lakers in LA with three HOF players starting on the other team. No current player will ever face that many HOFers in any game. The talent is spread way too thin.

Russell faced Wilt 100 times in the regular season and 50 times in the playoffs in 13 years. LeBrick James hasn't played any other top player half that number of times in 20 years and never 3 on a team.

 

[Triumph]

I'd put Orr #2, even #1. Brady mastered the art of quarterback play. Orr transformed his sport, certainly his position. I watched Orr play in person a few times. Every time he got on the ice, all of a sudden everything made sense, every other player's position suddenly made sense. If it didn't, he'd move a few yards or pass the puck off and then it all made sense. He was a defenseman who orchestrated the offense without sacrificing any of his defensive responsiblities. That's why he was able to contribute even after he could barely skate any more because of the ruined knees. His sense of the game was just remarkable.

Orr basically played defense by himself when paired with Teddy Green. No knock on Green after he got hit in the head with a puck. The players did not wear helmets back then. Teddy Green was never the same player after his injury. Orr killed Boston penalties by himself. The other team could not corner him because Orr was 5 moves ahead of them. The closest comparison to Orrs skating and game time where with all is to watch Connor McDavid for the Oilers.

Unfortunately, Orr played in a time where injuring the other player was acceptable. Player safety did not exist in the NHL. No helmets and the goalies wore flimsy Freddy Krueger masks facing blistering slap shots from the likes of Bobby Hull and others. Blackhawks Goon Keith Magnuson deliberately went after Orrs knees shortening his career. Orr is the GOAT.

 

[Boomer B]

I'll second your vote for Russell over Brady. Bill dealt with a lot of racial stuff as well, and all he did is win. Williams should be ahead of Papi and Pedro as well.

I disagree. Russell played in an 8 team league many of those years the Celtics were winning championships. No free agency and they could keep the team intact. He had a 12.5% chance to win a ring each year. Brady played the hardest position in sport in the free agency era in a 32 team league. That’s a 3% chance of winning a title.

Racism, while awful, doesn’t really have anything to do with who was the best at their sport.

 

[Steve102]

I disagree. Russell played in an 8 team league many of those years the Celtics were winning championships. No free agency and they could keep the team intact. He had a 12.5% chance to win a ring each year. Brady played the hardest position in sport in the free agency era in a 32 team league. That’s a 3% chance of winning a title.

Racism, while awful, doesn’t really have anything to do with who was the best at their sport.

Brady had a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better shot than 3% as the Pats were good, and as @1960Pats points out, a 6 team NBA league means it's stacked.

It's not taking anything away from Brady to put him behind Russell. He's the best ever to do what he does, bar none. It's more of an embarrassment of riches that we fans had the levels of play in the Boston area that we are discussing here. True greatness.