Once Maye Is Ready, Should We Even Carry 3 QB's?

[Wozzy]

To your point, developing a rookie QB is a two step process. Step 1 - win the competition vs the other candidates. Even though beating out Brisket should be a much harder than Cam, it is still the easiest step. Step 2 - Become a reliable NFL starter by delivering on the field. This step can take a couple of years. The hard reality is that many, or even most, QB prospects fail to complete step 2.

Cam was such a low bar, we’re in a much better position now than 2021. I don’t think Mac beats out Brissett. Mac got exposed in the final quarter of his rookie season, they’ll need Maye to do what Brady did in year one as a starter… get better by the final quarter of the season. Otherwise it’s back to the drawing board…

 

[PancakeBlockPaul]

Mac may have sucked, but he proved in that 2021 preseason joint practice with the Giants he was at least better than dead armed Cam Newton.

It must sting Cam knowing he was beaten out by a guy that went the way Mac did. Cam was DONE….

 

[Wozzy]

It must sting Cam knowing he was beaten out by a guy that went the way Mac did. Cam was DONE….

Time is undefeated. Cam made 100+ million on his football contracts not including endorsements, enough to keep him warm at night.

But he should invest properly, nobody with any taste is buying his fashion line.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

It must sting Cam knowing he was beaten out by a guy that went the way Mac did. Cam was DONE….

Despite the negative comments about Cam's on field performance, his leadership and professionalism caught me by surprise. He was easy to like, his body simply gave out on him.

 

[PancakeBlockPaul]

Time is undefeated. Cam made 100+ million on his football contracts not including endorsements, enough to keep him warm at night.

But he should invest properly, nobody with any taste is buying his fashion line.

No doubt. Those scarves and hats definitely are NOT helping. If anything, all of THOSE along with the millions will keep him warm.

Despite the negative comments about Cam's on field performance, his leadership and professionalism caught me by surprise. He was easy to like, his body simply gave out on him.

I am 100% with you. Honestly thought he would be a dbag to teammates etc and definitely fooled me…

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

he is going to need 18-24 games to really "get it" and not feel, play and make mistakes like a rookie. with his rookie contract, why waste one of those contract years? we saw Mac start day 1 and he went the entire season. Maye more mobile. Maye bigger and stronger. OL better.
could he get hurt? sure. but if the team wants to be competitive in 2-3 seasons, they are delaying that time frame not playing hm

Mac didn't need 18-24 games. He made the pro bowl in his rookie year. Not sure where you are getting that number.

Anyways, this argument has been done to death here. People on one side want him to start day one (if he's the best QB or since he's the best QB), regardless of the status of his development or the OL. People on the other side see absolutely no benefit to that approach, saying it's all risk and no reward.

I happen to be on the risk averse side of the argument. Maye is 21, there's plenty of time, if he's "the one" he'll be extended. What's the rush? They are going to suck this year. I don't buy your "competitive in 2-3 seasons" argument. You are just making numbers up: 2-3 seasons, 18-24 games... You don't risk the franchise unnecessarily to meet made up targets. There's a lot that goes in to being competitive and a lot of things can jar a team off course. Mayo might suck this year and get fired during the 2025-2026 season, for example. Then you're starting over.

You play Maye when he's ready AND when the OL is demonstrating an adequate level of play. You don't throw your rookie franchise QB to the lions because of some made up timeline. I get people want to see him play. We haven't had a QB with this much talent since Tom Brady. But he needs time to correct fundamentals and the OL needs time to sort stuff out. If both are sorted by midseason and the time is right to begin the Maye Era, then by all means play him. But if I'm coach, there's no way that's happening before this team has played half a season of games.

 

[mgteich]

Mac didn't need 18-24 games. He made the pro bowl in his rookie year. Not sure where you are getting that number.

Anyways, this argument has been done to death here. People on one side want him to start day one (if he's the best QB or since he's the best QB), regardless of the status of his development or the OL. People on the other side see absolutely no benefit to that approach, saying it's all risk and no reward.

I happen to be on the risk averse side of the argument. Maye is 21, there's plenty of time, if he's "the one" he'll be extended. What's the rush? They are going to suck this year. I don't buy your "competitive in 2-3 seasons" argument. You are just making numbers up: 2-3 seasons, 18-24 games... You don't risk the franchise unnecessarily to meet made up targets. There's a lot that goes in to being competitive and a lot of things can jar a team off course. Mayo might suck this year and get fired during the 2025-2026 season, for example. Then you're starting over.

You play Maye when he's ready AND when the OL is demonstrating an adequate level of play. You don't throw your rookie franchise QB to the lions because of some made up timeline. I get people want to see him play. We haven't had a QB with this much talent since Tom Brady. But he needs time to correct fundamentals and the OL needs time to sort stuff out. If both are sorted by midseason and the time is right to begin the Maye Era, then by all means play him. But if I'm coach, there's no way that's happening before this team has played half a season of games.

The open question is when we should ALLOW Maye to start to learn the NFL game, by playing. Folks make believe that we can sit him out for the year, and he will just start 2025 as an accomplished NFL QB. That is very, very unlikely to happen. Maye needs to learn by playing.
I understand wait half the season for the left side of the OL to have experience playing together. But we should be realistic. The OL will not be an average OL this year. It may best to play Maye after a couple of games. In end, the sooner Maye starts, the sooner he develops, presuming good coaching.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

The open question is when we should ALLOW Maye to start to learn the NFL game, by playing. Folks make believe that we can sit him out for the year, and he will just start 2025 as an accomplished NFL QB. That is very, very unlikely to happen. Maye needs to learn by playing.
I understand wait half the season for the left side of the OL to have experience playing together. But we should be realistic. The OL will not be an average OL this year. It may best to play Maye after a couple of games. In end, the sooner Maye starts, the sooner he develops, presuming good coaching.

Again, it's the same risk vs reward calculation. On one side, we have the risk of serious injury and stunted development due to new form being abandoned because he's running for his life. On the other, he gets game experience sooner and all that that entails. I see no reason to rush given his age and the deficits he needs to address. He can start later on this year if he's ready and the OL looks like it can protect adequately.

Some have an urgency to get him in sooner than later. Mac Jones started out as a very good pro QB in year one. He made the Pro Bowl. The situation was also very different, of course. There were more known quantities and the OL play was much better. But with a year of seasoning behind the scenes, even if Maye sits this year, in 2025 he might make Mac's first year look pedestrian by comparison, because there will be fewer unknown quantities, better OL play, and he has more talent. And I never said he needs to sit a full year. If the stars align, he could play this season.

Anyway, people can agree to disagree, I hope. But another way of thinking about this: if he gets seriously injured, regresses with his form this year due to excessive pressure, or becomes a gun shy turtle like Jones, the regret will be profound because those risks were absolutely clear even before the season. If he starts playing in 2025 and excels, it will be hard to say he would have done the same if he started playing earlier, so there's little regret. If he struggles, he would have struggled in 2024. There may be some regret if you believe he could have worked out those struggles during the 2024 season, but there's uncertainty over that too. Hard to say there would be deep regret. So that's how I parse it and arrive at the conclusion that we should wait until the OL looks acceptable (note, my bar is not high) in pass protection and the coaches are convinced his form and footwork are corrected and locked in.

 

[rkarp1]

Mac didn't need 18-24 games. He made the pro bowl in his rookie year. Not sure where you are getting that number.

Anyways, this argument has been done to death here. People on one side want him to start day one (if he's the best QB or since he's the best QB), regardless of the status of his development or the OL. People on the other side see absolutely no benefit to that approach, saying it's all risk and no reward.

I happen to be on the risk averse side of the argument. Maye is 21, there's plenty of time, if he's "the one" he'll be extended. What's the rush? They are going to suck this year. I don't buy your "competitive in 2-3 seasons" argument. You are just making numbers up: 2-3 seasons, 18-24 games... You don't risk the franchise unnecessarily to meet made up targets. There's a lot that goes in to being competitive and a lot of things can jar a team off course. Mayo might suck this year and get fired during the 2025-2026 season, for example. Then you're starting over.

You play Maye when he's ready AND when the OL is demonstrating an adequate level of play. You don't throw your rookie franchise QB to the lions because of some made up timeline. I get people want to see him play. We haven't had a QB with this much talent since Tom Brady. But he needs time to correct fundamentals and the OL needs time to sort stuff out. If both are sorted by midseason and the time is right to begin the Maye Era, then by all means play him. But if I'm coach, there's no way that's happening before this team has played half a season of games.

Mac came into the league as very pro ready. he easily grasped a complex offense. his mechanics were very good.
Mac's downfall was his physical ability. he was not able to make plays that fell apart around him, which often they did.
Maye is the opposite of Mac. he is very toolsy. but he needs in game snaps. he played a limited amount in both college and high school. his mechanics are in the process of being rebuilt.

Mac ran unto trouble year 2 as defenses caught up to what he could and could not do. he had no help from the coaching staff and had no weapons. he was injured (back) and even less mobile. he could not make every throw, especially on the move.

yes, my needed amount of games played is arbitrary, but realistic. we saw similar with Allen.
my 2-3 seasons is also arbitrary, but realistic if the team drafts well, and hits on free agent signings.

 

[Thelonious]

As of now, Zappe is gone, and we keep Maye, Brisset, Milton. If that requires freeing up a roster spot, we ditch a player on the defensive roster who is late enough in his career that the will be done for by the time the Pats are an actually competitive team: a couple years, say, depending on just how optimistic a person you are. If Maye works out, I would regard Brisset as a short-term option, particularly if Milton shows promise as a potential backup or more. If Milton turns out to to be unworthy, then Brisset is the back up to Maye, and next draft we pick another later-round "just might work" QB option. (Having lived through the historically-stable Brady experience, we seem to have forgotten that keeping your QB situation in order typically requires effort every blessed year.)

To me, this is just a simple series of "if/then" decisions, all of which must be driven by evaluation based on performance. I don't think anything in our situation is particularly perplexing or unusual. We have a hot young prospect, a take-a-flyer late draftee, a solid vet, and, in Zappe, a spare part whomight be usefull in training camp. Pretty normal stuff for any team which does not have the greatest QB of all time on board. I suspect it will all actually be pretty clear by the beginning of the regular season what is to be done. Sometimes the wisest take is, "Well, we shall see."

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

but he needs in game snaps. he played a limited amount in both college and high school. his mechanics are in the process of being rebuilt.

You don't rebuild mechanics in game conditions under withering pressure: you rebuild them in practice, because your mechanics get thrown out the window when large, fast men are chasing you down. He won't have time to go through progressions (and he'll likely need that time given our WR corp and his inexperience). He won't have time to learn if he's making the right reads. If you qualify your position and say that the OL needs to be decent, then we can start to get on the same page.

yes, my needed amount of games played is arbitrary, but realistic. we saw similar with Allen.
my 2-3 seasons is also arbitrary, but realistic if the team drafts well, and hits on free agent signings.

There is far more uncertainty than certainty concerning the progression of the team. We don't know what we have in our coaches, draftees, FAs and general manager. NE is no longer a desirable destination for FAs, and we'll see if that begins to turn around under the new regime. In this chaotic situation, you want to create islands of stability, especially where your rookie franchise QB is concerned. Next year (and perhaps later this year) we will have reduced uncertainty (and consequently risk) enough to adopt a more aggressive course with Drake.

I really think this comes down to patience. You and others want to see Drake play ASAP. I understand that, and there's a part of me that wants to begin the Drake era now. But that desire can make you blind to the risks. Proponents of "Drake Maye, Sink or Swim" don't talk about the risks, really.

I understand the benefits of getting him under center early: the sooner he gets in there, the sooner he gets experience with the pro game. I agree that game training is essential to his development, because there is nothing like facing an opponent trying to tear you down, fool you, and exploit any weaknesses they see on tape. If he starts earlier, he could work through all that and he could reach his peak faster. But, as I said above, you need the right environment for that kind of in-game development. So I hope the team waits until Drake is ready as far as form and footwork go and until the OL can protect him. I'm willing to wait for that: we have plenty of time.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

As of now, Zappe is gone, and we keep Maye, Brisset, Milton. If that requires freeing up a roster spot, we ditch a player on the defensive roster who is late enough in his career that the will be done for by the time the Pats are an actually competitive team: a couple years, say, depending on just how optimistic a person you are. If Maye works out, I would regard Brisset as a short-term option, particularly if Milton shows promise as a potential backup or more. If Milton turns out to to be unworthy, then Brisset is the back up to Maye, and next draft we pick another later-round "just might work" QB option. (Having lived through the historically-stable Brady experience, we seem to have forgotten that keeping your QB situation in order typically requires effort every blessed year.)

Zappe got cut? Afaik he's still with the team. I will be shocked if they put Milton on the 53, but I'm prepared to be shocked.

 

[mgteich]

Again, it's the same risk vs reward calculation. On one side, we have the risk of serious injury and stunted development due to new form being abandoned because he's running for his life. On the other, he gets game experience sooner and all that that entails. I see no reason to rush given his age and the deficits he needs to address. He can start later on this year if he's ready and the OL looks like it can protect adequately.

Some have an urgency to get him in sooner than later. Mac Jones started out as a very good pro QB in year one. He made the Pro Bowl. The situation was also very different, of course. There were more known quantities and the OL play was much better. But with a year of seasoning behind the scenes, even if Maye sits this year, in 2025 he might make Mac's first year look pedestrian by comparison, because there will be fewer unknown quantities, better OL play, and he has more talent. And I never said he needs to sit a full year. If the stars align, he could play this season.

Anyway, people can agree to disagree, I hope. But another way of thinking about this: if he gets seriously injured, regresses with his form this year due to excessive pressure, or becomes a gun shy turtle like Jones, the regret will be profound because those risks were absolutely clear even before the season. If he starts playing in 2025 and excels, it will be hard to say he would have done the same if he started playing earlier, so there's little regret. If he struggles, he would have struggled in 2024. There may be some regret if you believe he could have worked out those struggles during the 2024 season, but there's uncertainty over that too. Hard to say there would be deep regret. So that's how I parse it and arrive at the conclusion that we should wait until the OL looks acceptable (note, my bar is not high) in pass protection and the coaches are convinced his form and footwork are corrected and locked in.

OK, let's compare to Jones yet again.

If we start Maye in the first game, he will learn over the first year and be at least where Jones was at the end of his rookie year.

SOME CONSIDERATIONS
1) Maye is a much better talent than Jones.
2) The 2024 OL is worse, so we should wait a few games.
3) Losing Maye's rookie year simply means that we lose one year of Maye's rookie contract. He needs to start early enough so that we can expect him to be ready to compete Day One of the 2025 season. That won't happen if we wait for Maye to start until after the bye. In that case Maye would be ready for 2026.

 

[Thelonious]

OK, let's compare to Jones yet again.

If we start Maye in the first game, he will learn over the first year and be at least where Jones was at the end of his rookie year.

SOME CONSIDERATIONS
1) Maye is a much better talent than Jones.
2) The 2024 OL is worse, so we should wait a few games.
3) Losing Maye's rookie year simply means that we lose one year of Maye's rookie contract. He needs to start early enough so that we can expect him to be ready to compete Day One of the 2025 season. That won't happen if we wait for Maye to start until after the bye. In that case Maye would be ready for 2026.

Zappe got cut? Afaik he's still with the team. I will be shocked if they put Milton on the 53, but I'm prepared to be shocked.

LOL. I put "Zappa" instead of "Zappe." Some kind of flashback to my youth.

"By Zappa is gone" I meant that he is a sort of a dead man walking. I should probably have said "is as good as gone."

As for when or if Maye plays/starts this year. I simply don' think enough facts are in to say. Some of those facts pertain to Maye's development, of course, but I think the condition of the O-line will and should be a greater determinant re that decision. There is no urgency in my mind, since the coming year is all about the rebuild, all about next year and years following. Wins will be important this year as evidence of progress, but they won't really mean much beyond that, since there is no way we will play any role in the playoff, unless we are preposterously lucky and get to play the sacrificial lamb in the first round against a team which is actually has a chance at the trophy.

 

[mgteich]

"By Zappa is gone" I meant that he is a sort of a dead man walking. I should probably have said "is as good as gone."

As for when or if Maye plays/starts this year. I simply don' think enough facts are in to say. Some of those facts pertain to Maye's development, of course, but I think the condition of the O-line will and should be a greater determinant re that decision. There is no urgency in my mind, since the coming year is all about the rebuild, all about next year and years following. Wins will be important this year as evidence of progress, but they won't really mean much beyond that, since there is no way we will play any role in the playoff, unless we are preposterously lucky and get to play the sacrificial lamb in the first round against a team which is actually has a chance at the trophy.

The urgency is that Maye needs to gain experience so that we can compete for the playoffs in 2025 and in the tears to come.

I would not be shocked to see Okorafor and Sow playing adequately at LT and LG by the 3rd or 4th game, with either Wallace or Onwenu playing RT.

 

[Thelonious]

The urgency is that Maye needs to gain experience so that we can compete for the playoffs in 2025 and in the tears to come.

I would not be shocked to see Okorafor and Sow playing adequately at LT and LG by the 3rd or 4th game, with either Wallace or Onwenu playing RT.

That's a fair point re Maye getting experience. I'm probably a little more pessimistic than you re the O-line, but let's hope I'm wrong. It's been known to happen.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The urgency is that Maye needs to gain experience so that we can compete for the playoffs in 2025 and in the tears to come.

I would not be shocked to see Okorafor and Sow playing adequately at LT and LG by the 3rd or 4th game, with either Wallace or Onwenu playing RT.

I hope this isn't some sort of Freudian prediction of the future. LOL

 

[Grogan14]

The urgency is that Maye needs to gain experience so that we can compete for the playoffs in 2025 and in the tears to come.

I would not be shocked to see Okorafor and Sow playing adequately at LT and LG by the 3rd or 4th game, with either Wallace or Onwenu playing RT.

Maye needs to learn the playbook and NFL speed of play before “getting him experience”
Jordan Love, Patrick Mahomes and Jalen Hurts sat for a full year. That worked pretty good.
Play him whenever he is ready. If its 1 or 2 years that will be fine in the long run.

 

[jdlboot14]

Reality check. Brissett (via the team) is going to struggle mightily the first month.
@CIN vSEA @NYJ @SF - that's a pretty brutal first 4 with very good Defenses.

Brissett will not look good, again because of the offense not being good yet. So it's likely the pressure will start to build to play Maye.
For the same reason, Maye should not play the first month - minimum.
But the next 6 games are average competition.
We'll see how Miami, Texans, Jets fare with all the pressure (Jets will be imploding by our week 8 matchup)

I think Maye could get in on Week 6 or 7 in that situation.
OR, if Brissett / Offense recovers in the soft middle of the schedule, and they're winning some games, then wait until the bye (if we're out of the playoffs).

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

If we start Maye in the first game, he will learn over the first year and be at least where Jones was at the end of his rookie year.

He might unlearn the good form and footwork he’s worked on. Or he might learn what having a serious injury, surgery and an extended NFL rehab are like, not returning to action well into 2025, all because the team pushed him out there before the time was right.

1) Maye is a much better talent than Jones.

I suspect everyone is taking that for granted, including me, but you never know. Overall #1s have had worse careers than Mac Jones.

2) The 2024 OL is worse, so we should wait a few games.

That’s up in the air. They could be better than last year from the first game. They could be acceptable by game 5. They could sink to lower lows. We will have to wait and see. So many variables this year.

3) Losing Maye's rookie year simply means that we lose one year of Maye's rookie contract. He needs to start early enough so that we can expect him to be ready to compete Day One of the 2025 season. That won't happen if we wait for Maye to start until after the bye. In that case Maye would be ready for 2026.

This argument is really the weakest. If he’s The One, he’s going to get extended. It’s the most important position, the cost difference can be spread out, Kraft can dig deep, whatever. Maye’s health and development are far more important/valuable than 40 million averaged out over the length of his Patriots career. And if rushing him shortens his career or reduces his value, what we gained by one year’s acceleration will be insignificant.