How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[signbabybrady]

Lol, it's truly amazing how dumb you are.

Who do you think was the better coach Bill or Knoll?

 

[maust]

This is true, but Belichick began his HC career before the cap began (1994). If you look at the years (1991-93) he coached before the cap, his record was 20-28. If you incl. the cap year (1994) in which he had his best record, he ends up with a 31-33 record. His last 4 years in NE, he ended with a 29-38 record. So before or after the cap, w/o Brady, Belichick's record is consistent. A sub .500 record.

Again, the biggest difference was having Brady at QB. Not sure why this is so controversial since Belichick himself acknowledged he would not have been as successful w/o Brady. The facts show that to be the case.

(sigh)
I was responding to the fallacious argument you attempted to insert into the discussion here:

That's the biggest difference between these elite HCs.

Plainly the QB's and how long they had them for is far from the biggest difference when comparing Noll and Belichick.
I'm not getting drawn into the foolishness being engaged in here regarding Brady vs Belichick. I became a Pats fan at their inception, I have seen this team in every incarnation it has known. Which includes seeing every game of the Brady & Bill era and I can honestly say that's what it was. The Brady AND Bill era. Neither would have been anywhere near as successful without the other.

Split all the hairs you like, it doesn't concern me in the least 'til somebody starts slinging ******** about either one of them

 

[Tunescribe]

This is true, but Belichick began his HC career before the cap began (1994). If you look at the years (1991-93) he coached before the cap, his record was 20-28. If you incl. the cap year (1994) in which he had his best record, he ends up with a 31-33 record. His last 4 years in NE, he ended with a 29-38 record. So before or after the cap, w/o Brady, Belichick's record is consistent. A sub .500 record.

Again, the biggest difference was having Brady at QB. Not sure why this is so controversial since Belichick himself acknowledged he would not have been as successful w/o Brady. The facts show that to be the case.

I don't think that Mark Malone, David Woodley, Cliff Stoudt and Bubby Brister were better than Testaverde, Cassell, Cam, and Mac. Anyway, there's no doubt Bill excelled with the GOAT, nobody is saying he didn't. His coaching wasn't able to overcome having average and above average QBs though, in comparison to his peers. That's the point. Having Brady maintain his consistent greatness for 19 years set Belichick apart from the rest. Obviously.

They aren't interested in numbers, just the perception of reality. If you repeat something enough times, people begin to believe it.

Here's another one, defensive ppg allowed during each SB playoff run by the winning team. Notice where the Pats defenses are ranked amongst all SB winners. The highest is #32 (2001) out of 58 SBs. That's below average.

That's why they want to ignore DVOA and EPA which takes those things into account. Their argument falls apart when you really look at the impact of each phase.

You're obviously clueless. DVOA was not developed by PFF. It is you that's pushing flat earth nonsense when you fail to take into account each play that contributed to the final result and how it compares with the league average. Your ignorance is showing and your arguments are 5th grade level.

Lol, it's truly amazing how dumb you are.

 

[Vindicate]

That was points allowed... a poor metric of measuring a defense over a season by itself as many have said already.

God, do not remind me of 2016 near the post-season LMAO. Those yard totals were insane (but to be fair, they won the whole damn thing) and this board was going crazy about how their defense wasn't what it seemed to be. I think I was as well. (I'm not refuting your point, just remember that time quite vividly. 'Paper tiger' was tossed around a lot.)

Games by yardage in 2016:

344
457
284
378 - Loss (Bills)
262
357
375
376
420 - Loss (Seahawks)
299
333
162 (lol)
348
309
239
280

Post Season:
302
368
344

 

[signbabybrady]

He's just trolling he's putting up all sorts of stuff but he he still knows Bill is the GOAT.

 

[vicspats]

This is true, but Belichick began his HC career before the cap began (1994). If you look at the years (1991-93) he coached before the cap, his record was 20-28. If you incl. the cap year (1994) in which he had his best record, he ends up with a 31-33 record. His last 4 years in NE, he ended with a 29-38 record. So before or after the cap, w/o Brady, Belichick's record is consistent. A sub .500 record.

Again, the biggest difference was having Brady at QB. Not sure why this is so controversial since Belichick himself acknowledged he would not have been as successful w/o Brady. The facts show that to be the case.

Yes I agree. Bills record without Brady would definitely be worse, no doubt. I think you have proven your point. Ad nauseam. But if Bill hadn’t drafted Tom, and Moe didn’t happen, who knows? I see you over and over and over with the same stats … and yup you are correct in your record facts. But you assume so much to think Tom would get a chance on another team to be as successful as what the Patriots were as a team, for Tom to end up with the success he had in his career. There was a chance he wouldn’t have even been drafted. This is the way I see it. If Vinateri didn’t miss two field goals in Pete Carrol’s last season , he would have made the playoffs and he wouldn’t have gotten fired. None of this would have happened. As fate would have it … if it wasn’t for Vinateri … we don’t win two super bowls. The whole thing was magical. The tumblers aligned and the universe gave us something that will never happen again. Shouldn’t that be enough ?

 

[Tunescribe]

Yes I agree. Bills record without Brady would definitely be worse, no doubt. I think you have proven your point. Ad nauseam. But if Bill hadn’t drafted Tom, and Moe didn’t happen, who knows? I see you over and over and over with the same stats … and yup you are correct in your record facts. But you assume so much to think Tom would get a chance on another team to be as successful as what the Patriots were as a team, for Tom to end up with the success he had in his career. There was a chance he wouldn’t have even been drafted. This is the way I see it. If Vinateri didn’t miss two field goals in Pete Carrol’s last season , he would have made the playoffs and he wouldn’t have gotten fired. None of this would have happened. As fate would have it … if it wasn’t for Vinateri … we don’t win two super bowls. The whole thing was magical. The tumblers aligned and the universe gave us something that will never happen again. Shouldn’t that be enough ?

This whole sorry, moronic anti-Belichick jihad boils down to one simple thing for Biffins, the Veneclown, IceIceBrady and all the other Tampa Bay Ghetto refugees stumbling around bowlegged with a bur up their ass: terminal butthurt over Brady's exit after the 2019 season. Nothing more. Theirs is a pathetic campaign to discredit, diminish and dismiss BB's contributions to the dynasty and career in general, alleging that his sole claim to fame draws from riding Tom's coattails. A myopically flawed conclusion rooted in blind hero worship and naive ignorance re. how things work on a professional football team. Cultism and the Duning-Kruger effect rolled into one NFL style, impervious to logic or common sense.

 

[signbabybrady]

This whole sorry, moronic anti-Belichick jihad boils down to one simple thing for Biffins, the Veneclown, IceIceBrady and all the other Tampa Bay Ghetto refugees stumbling around bowlegged with a bur up their ass: terminal butthurt over Brady's exit after the 2019 season. Nothing more. Theirs is a pathetic campaign to discredit, diminish and dismiss BB's contributions to the dynasty and career in general, alleging that his sole claim to fame draws from riding Tom's coattails. A myopically flawed conclusion rooted in blind hero worship and naive ignorance re. how things work on a professional football team. Cultism and the Duning-Kruger effect rolled into one NFL style, impervious to logic or common sense.

They don't even believe half the crap they write they are just trying to piss people off.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Now that their careers are over, and we have enough games and data of them playing without the other, it's ok to do an objective assessment.

Bill Belichick's record without Tom Brady: How legendary former Patriots coach has fared before, after divorce with QB | Sporting News United Kingdom

Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history, but his record without Tom Brady isn't too pretty.

www.sportingnews.com

Tom Brady	Wins	Losses	Winning %	Super Bowl titles
With Bill Belichick	249	75	.769	6
Without Bill Belichick	37	20	.649	1

While Brady did win a Superbowl in Tampa Bay, his winning percentage did drop from 76.9% to 64.9% demonstrating that Belichick did have an impact on Brady's game and ability and helped Brady go up very good, to stratospheric, and best all time.

And we have the data the other way around as well as BB also seems to have benefitted from Brady

Bill Belichick	Wins	Losses	Winning %	Super Bowl titles (as HC)
With Tom Brady	249	75	.769	6
Without Tom Brady	84	103	.449	0

Without Brady, Belichick likely cannot hold on to a HC job for more than 3-4 years with a garbage 44.9% win percentage, which is exactly what happened to him both at the Browns, or at the Patriots after Brady left, and he was fired both times. So Brady seems to have elevated Belichick from below average, or mediocre at best, to in the discussion for best all time.

But it seems people have elevated Brady's contribution to the run far above Belichick's. e.g. when people mention Paul Brown and Otto Graham (10 titles), they seem to revere Brown more. And when they mention Lombardi and Starr, it's no doubt the credit is heavily favoured towards Lombardi (likely due to run heavy era). But Belichick and Brady debate has only gone one way recently. With press, media, fans, and overall history seems to firmly be in the camp that Belichick rode Brady's coattails to success. How did this happen so quickly? He seems to have helped Brady on the margins as well.

Dumb post.

This applies to Lombardi, Noll, Landry and Reid as well.

 

[Ian]

Bad QB play had little to do with a defense getting completely depantsed like they did. That was all on Bill's defense. And the HC but that's a different topic.

But on the bright side that was a no doubter... at least Bill's defense didn't tease us only to come up small at the moments when it mattered most like the final Giants drives in both Super Bowl losses or made to look like clowns by Nick Foles of all people.

I blame Patricia more than Belichick for the defense in that one, save for the Butler decision - which was inexcusable. That whole conservative approach killed them and the difference between that and how Flores ran things (way more aggressive) was striking and they’ve seemingly stayed with it ever since.

 

[Ian]

This is true, but Belichick began his HC career before the cap began (1994). If you look at the years (1991-93) he coached before the cap, his record was 20-28. If you incl. the cap year (1994) in which he had his best record, he ends up with a 31-33 record. His last 4 years in NE, he ended with a 29-38 record. So before or after the cap, w/o Brady, Belichick's record is consistent. A sub .500 record.

Again, the biggest difference was having Brady at QB. Not sure why this is so controversial since Belichick himself acknowledged he would not have been as successful w/o Brady. The facts show that to be the case.

I’ve never seen a situation where people fault a coach for having success, especially having fought and put his job on the line for that player, and then having success for said player. It’s just strange to me.

Getting back to our other discussion, I feel like having a Cassel-esque QB would have seen 2022 and 2023 go differently, especially last season. Although if Bill’s record was above .500, the next discussion would be his playoff record and/or a lack of a Super Bowl if that Cassel-esque QB didn’t win one.

And I won’t get into Cassel’s record without Bill because I’d be willing to bet he may have fared better had he stayed here.

But that would be a player I do believe he could have had success with and I’m still annoyed we didn’t get to see how Cassel would have fared in the postseason that year given how well they played down the stretch.

 

[Wozzy]

Dumb post.

This applies to Lombardi, Noll, Landry and Reid as well.

Agreed... dumb argument.

Turning a team around, with salary cap, 53 players all under contract with ten more practice squad players, age, injury, culture...

Versus Matt Stafford leaving his Lions team going to the Rams who were in the Super Bowl a year ago. Just dumb.

Stafford played twelve years in Detroit and couldn't win a single playoff game, goes to the Rams and instantly wins 4 games to win a ring. It was all because of Matt Stafford's magical QB powers.

Was anyone convinced Kevin Durant going to Golden State to win his first ring after they had just won a ring the season before last was entirely because of Durant? Laughable...

 

[Wozzy]

I blame Patricia more than Belichick for the defense in that one, save for the Butler decision - which was inexcusable. That whole conservative approach killed them and the difference between that and how Flores ran things (way more aggressive) was striking and they’ve seemingly stayed with it ever since.

They lost Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones before the playoffs and Patrick Chung by halftime of that game... they weren't winning with or without Butler.

 

[sb1]

I blame Patricia more than Belichick for the defense in that one, save for the Butler decision - which was inexcusable. That whole conservative approach killed them and the difference between that and how Flores ran things (way more aggressive) was striking and they’ve seemingly stayed with it ever since.

Kills me why this wasn't fixed in-game with the obvious move putting Butler back in. When someone like the Agholor we all know and love is having himself a game against us then there's a problem lol

 

[sb1]

They lost Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones before the playoffs and Patrick Chung by halftime of that game... they weren't winning with or without Butler.

2 stops on 3rd down at most - which Butler undoubtedly would have gotten and Jordan Richards didn't...would have flipped the outcome. No question about it.

 

[Ian]

They lost Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones before the playoffs and Patrick Chung by halftime of that game... they weren't winning with or without Butler.

I would have liked to see them try. Again, needed one play, one pass breakup, anything. If nothing else, one of those guys would have been slightly less gassed and could have been subbed.

 

[sb1]

I would have liked to see them try. Again, needed one play, one pass breakup, anything. If nothing else, one of those guys would have been slightly less gassed and could have been subbed.

Exactly and we didn't need Butler to be Deion Sanders in his prime. It's not debatable that he would have been an improvement over whatever that was out there. This was Nick freaking Foles not Aaron Rodgers or Peyton in their day.

 

[Wozzy]

2 stops on 3rd down at most - which Butler undoubtedly would have gotten and Jordan Richards didn't...would have flipped the outcome. No question about it.

Butler gave up six touchdowns in coverage in 2017 tying for third-most at the CB position, while also yielding the 11th-most yards at 698 and ranking 108th in yards after the catch. He was rated 92nd in QB passer rating when targeted... 92nd. He was arguably the worst starting CB in the league.

Then he went to Tennessee on a big contract and was immediately benched in favor of their nickel CB Adoree Jackson. Meanwhile the guy who started in place of Butler in that Super Bowl Eric Rowe went on to have a nice little career, he was a better player going forward.

Butler being the reason why they lost in 2017 is the dumbest take in Dynasty talk... only surpassed by one person was entirely/more responsible for the entire thing. Butler peaked in 2016.

 

[Wozzy]

I would have liked to see them try. Again, needed one play, one pass breakup, anything. If nothing else, one of those guys would have been slightly less gassed and could have been subbed.

What people don't consider is the outcome could have been worse and likely would have been. Butler was terrible in 2017.

 

[Pats1971]

Dumb post.

This applies to Lombardi, Noll, Landry and Reid as well.

Well sorta. reid went to NFC title games and superbowl without Mahomes. Bill won 1 playoff game in 10 years with a losing record.