How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[TheRainMaker]

Yea, Brady was 100% a better GM than Belichick in 2020.

Gronk had mentioned he was waiting for Tom to leave NE and that he would unretire.

 

[venecol]

I mean, I get it - people want to discuss it, and I'm obviously good with it...at least it's in its own thread. But the "Bill was always terrible/average" argument is the one that frustrates me. We saw so many moments, especially in the postseason, where he made some gutsy calls or recognized something, and it proved to be the difference.

Not sure why you continue to conflate Belichick's overall career with the portion w/o the GOAT QB. Nobody, and I mean absolutely no one is saying Belichick was "always terrible/ average." The overall numbers don't support that. That's not even being discussed. Stop it.

Again, most of those Super Bowls were close games. I would have loved it if Brady could have gone out and run it up from the beginning, but we never had that luxury. Bucs fans did. We certainly didn't. So a lot more had to go right for things to work out.

Yes, of course.

 

[venecol]

LOL, Dungy was fired after multiple years of failing to live up to expectations with a talented team. He was not the general manager and did not develop the roster. Your post would actually make sense if you stated that Bruce Allen won with Rich McKay's team. Unfortunately that doesn't work as well for your purposes.

Dungy made that team a top D team. I lived in Tampa at the time. The Glasers' are despised in Tampa, at least until the old man died.

 

[signbabybrady]

How so? That year is taken into account in Bill's record w/o Brady. Which is funny because on the other side, people discount entire seasons ('91, '95, '00, '20) just "because." Lol

Some people discount entire decades just because lol

 

[signbabybrady]

Yea, Brady was 100% a better GM than Belichick in 2020.

When did Brady draft someone as good as Brady?

 

[vicspats]

I disagree. IMO it was clear that part of why Tom was miserable in 2019 was because he knew he was done. I believe he would have not been that way had he got the contract he wanted. I am not saying he had an excuse either.

I also disagree that nothing could have been done with the 2020 team. Brady never had back to back crappy seasons. His two comparable ones were 2009 and 2013 and he followed up with great years.

Instead, I was forced to become a Bucs fan and watched 3 years of their games when I had only ever watched them once every 4 years prior to that.

Forced to become a Bucs fan means you probly never was a Patriots fan. Just jumped on board after a couple of Super Bowls. Plenty of kids and women in my old neighborhood jumped on board after a few years as well. I just thought it was a bad fad. I couldn’t Imagine rooting for the Yankees or the Habs. Jeezus Murphy mother and Joseph!!! Makes my blood boil to watch the Habs even today and they haven’t been relevant in 40 years. Hey but what do I know ..

 

[vicspats]

You have a funny way of showing it. If you're so grateful maybe take it a little easy on your fellow patsfans members with your frustrations over the end. Maybe instead of calling everything and everyone out take a moment to remember you're grateful and to remember what BB has done to form such positive opinions from members of this board and why they would want to defend him.

He’s maybe just a Fan boy of Brady?. Probly never played a team sport? Happens …

 

[Ian]

Now you sound like Tuneless. You might as well appoint him the Ombudsman role he so desires.

LOL, I've actually gotten into it a few times with people about this and they make excuses for Bowles, not acknowledging that Arians was better/more important than they thought.

 

[vicspats]

The Defense and offense worked hand and hand.

01 Patriots
16-13 over Raiders offense pulls weight

24-17 over Steelers. a blocked kick returned for a td and a punt return for a td. Yeah, we needed the defense/special teams group for that one. Offense pulls weight

20-17 over Rams. A interception return for a td. Forced fumbles, Again defense is important. Offense pulls weight.

03 Patriots

17-14 over Titans. Shut down Co Mvp. Offense pulls weight

24-14 over Colts. 4 interceptions, 4 sacks and a safety by the defense. 5 fgs from AV. Offense pulls weight.

32-29 over Carolina. Barn burner. Brady arrives and puts himself in elite category.

04 Patriots

20-3 over Colts. Shuts down the 49 td thrower. Asante drops interception in end zone that lost shutout. Go figure. Offense pulled its weight.

41-27 over Steelers. Obviously offense is clicking and defense is doing what it can to avenge the Halloween loss.

24-21 over Eagles. Great game offense did what was needed, defense forced turnovers. And Andy Reid and clock management wins the day.

2001 Defense 5th in points allowed
2003 Defense 1st in points allowed
2004 Defense 3rd in point allowed

2001 Offense 5th in scoring
2003 Offense 12th in scoring
2004 Offense 4th in scoring

At the end it doesn’t matter because it was the perfect storm. I didn’t even get into the plus minus because it didn’t bode well for the rest of the league. Tbh though, I never saw the offense exceeding it’s own weight. First half was primarily defense. But it’s mute because Brady was always able to score more points than the other team when needed depending on the circumstances. That’s why it was a dynasty. A combination of players and coaches doing the job.

Excellent and well thought out. Thank you. It’s nice that intelligent fans on this board spell out clearly facts. This was definitely a well oiled team. Top down for 20 years!!!

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Dungy made that team a top D team. I lived in Tampa at the time. The Glasers' are despised in Tampa, at least until the old man died.

So you are saying that Dungy was a great coach who was a defensive genius who was run out of town by an evil owner and now the fans hate the owner? Now I get it. Very interesting, I just don't see how this is comparable to the Patriots and BB.

 

[Ian]

This is nonsense. Anyone that lived in Tampa at the time will tell you that Gruden won with Dungy's team.

100% agree - you just made my point. Gruden won with Dungy's team - who couldn't get over the hump. We saw that trend continue in Indy with all the one-and-dones in the postseason. It wasn't a coincidence.

 

[Ian]

How so? That year is taken into account in Bill's record w/o Brady. Which is funny because on the other side, people discount entire seasons ('91, '95, '00, '20) just "because." Lol

Talk to anyone about that season and many of them discount it. Crawhammer - my favorite response of all time - went so far to call that year a failure because they went undefeated the year before, so the 5 games equated to a 31.3% increase in losses.

My mind was blown by that one.
.

 

[Ian]

Not sure why you continue to conflate Belichick's overall career with the portion w/o the GOAT QB. Nobody, and I mean absolutely no one is saying Belichick was "always terrible/ average." The overall numbers don't support that. That's not even being discussed. Stop it.


Yes, of course.

There are many - yourself included - who have expressed that his impact with Brady was minimal.

 

[Ian]

@venecol after enjoying some time with his family on this Easter, coming back into the forum to re-engage on the Bill topic, coming in guns blazing to shoot down anyone who has written anything objective or moderately supportive.

 

[venecol]

There are many - yourself included - who have expressed that his impact with Brady was minimal.

I've never used the word "minimal." Not once.

I've always said it took both of them to have the success the Patriots had during those two decades. I'm a players fan. Others are fans of coaches. I believe that Brady was responsible for the majority of the success, because of his contributions both "on" and "off" the field. We can disagree on percentages, but it took both.

 

[Ian]

Lol, you guys.

Those numbers are accurate.

Nobody is doing that.

Yes, they are.

We're talking about the GOAT. Mahomes is another GOAT-type and he may catch him.

Mahomes is playing for a guy who is among the top coaches and best offensive minds in the league, and a future Hall of Fame coach.

Nobody is saying that either.

They are. Again, people are absolutely downplaying Belichick's effect during the Brady era, hence the entire debate to begin with.

He was a mediocre coach when he didn't have the GOAT QB. Not sure why that's so difficult to understand. You trying to come up with excuses for "portions" of an 11+ season run is what's ridiculous. There's plenty of HCs that never got to coach 11 seasons. That's a very long sample size. It is what it is.

His resume - ie: what he did as a coordinator, which landed him HOF recognition - is what got him his head coaching opportunity in Cleveland. That again, was discussed and the documentary outlined it. We all agreed ten-ish years ago that he got hosed and that it was a brutal situation. Now here we are after he parted ways with Brady, and all of a sudden he was a lousy coach in Cleveland again.

Again, any coach is a terrible coach without a good QB. Sean Payton is dealing with it now. Jimmy Johnson had the same issue without Aikman in Miami. It just is what it is. Belichick just happened to take it a step further with horrible personnel decisions, and I would argue that his handling of his own staff didn't do him any favors, especially when they all bailed with Josh and left him with nothing but the plan they put together ahead of 2022.

So I absolutely believe he was responsible for the end result. But calling him mediocre is just puzzling. We all lived the moments when he had a solid QB. But not having a good one will submarine even the best coaches. And it remains to be seen how long Payton will survive where he is if he ultimately joins Bill and strikes out next month.

 

[Ian]

We can disagree on percentages, but it took both.

Then if that's truly the case, you're certainly in the minority.

 

[venecol]

Again, any coach is a terrible coach without a good QB. Sean Payton is dealing with it now. Jimmy Johnson had the same issue without Aikman in Miami. It just is what it is. Belichick just happened to take it a step further with horrible personnel decisions, and I would argue that his handling of his own staff didn't do him any favors, especially when they all bailed with Josh and left him with nothing but the plan they put together ahead of 2022.

So I absolutely believe he was responsible for the end result. But calling him mediocre is just puzzling. We all lived the moments when he had a solid QB. But not having a good one will submarine even the best coaches. And it remains to be seen how long Payton will survive where he is if he ultimately joins Bill and strikes out next month.

So what level of QB do you think it takes for an elite HC to win more seasons? Obviously not a HOF QB. But how average, or just above average does this QB need to be?

 

[venecol]

Then if that's truly the case, you're certainly in the minority.

I don't believe I am. I think that what's happened is any criticism leveled at Belichick is ardently defended by his sycophants.

Nobody that's serious claims that Brady was the ONLY reason for the dynasty. It's a matter of how much each contributed. Nobody will ever agree on the percentages so they turn the discussion into ALL or NOTHING. It's dumb.

 

[Ian]

So what level of QB do you think it takes for an elite HC to win more seasons? Obviously not a HOF QB. But how average, or just above average does this QB need to be?

I would say Kirk Cousins-ish. That's sort of the mid benchmark to get you 10 or so wins most years, but then they'll crash in the postseason barring a defense that can hold the opponent. (Kirk through short of the sticks on 4th down last January ... just unreal). A lot of guys just don't do well in the spotlight, whether it's the coach of the QB. Feels like there are definitely very few QBs, based on what we've seen.

I said this to someone else, but with Brady's retirement, Rivers, Brees, etc., the league is slowly regressing QB-wise. I'm not overly thrilled with most guys coming out, and feel like we're going to start seeing more and more mediocre play unless the league does more to help teams develop young QBs.

Rich Eisen talked about that last week and Bucky Brooks said something similar, and I do feel like there's something to that. They can't all be absolutely terrible...or at least you'd have to try and believe that wasn't the case.