Tankathon

[Clonamery]

What we as fans want or think has no impact on what the team does or how they play. We can want them to win, but that doesn’t make a difference, and we can want them to lose so they get a higher pick and hopefully a better player in the Draft, and that doesn’t have any impact on them either. As fans we can go either route because it has no impact on what happens, we are just rooting for what we think is in the best interests of the team.

OK, if that's what you see as important then have fun with it, I just find more positives in winning games.

 

[Tunescribe]

OK, if that's what you see as important then have fun with it, I just find more positives in winning games.

But remember: his way of "having fun with it" is not watching the games because otherwise he can't actively root for them to lose. Which might make sense in a Three Stooges sort of way, especially if that Holy Grail draft pick ends up a bust or is traded down for linemen.

Imagine come draft night being on pins and needles for the Patriots Savior unveiling but then ...

 

[1960Pats]

They won't get that franchise QB.

Wow...

You don't know that. Nobody does.

Anyone care to take a guess at how many QBs were drafted ahead of HOF QB's over the years? Between Brady and Marino there were a dozen QBs taken ahead of just those two. How about Jackson Lamar? Wasn't he an end of round 1 pick.

 

[festy1986]

You don't know that. Nobody does.

Anyone care to take a guess at how many QBs were drafted ahead of HOF QB's over the years? Between Brady and Marino there were a dozen QBs taken ahead of just those two. How about Jackson Lamar? Wasn't he an end of round 1 pick.

You know what we do know? The higher the pick the better your chances. Historically speaking.

The Patriots can't be in a position where they're picking 5 and taking the third QB off the board.

It would be a waste.

 

[1960Pats]

OK, if that's what you see as important then have fun with it, I just find more positives in winning games.

And that's exactly how every player feels. Just watch the reaction of the team after they crushed the souls of Bronco fans and the Tankheads. It was the happiest they've looked all season.

 

[1960Pats]

You know what we do know? The higher the pick the better your chances. Historically speaking.

The Patriots can't be in a position where they're picking 5 and taking the third QB off the board.

It would be a waste.

You don't know that either. Historically speaking, teams miss on QBs every season, many time by a lot. Just last season the Panthers traded up from 2 to 1 only to see the #2 pick have a decent start to his career while the #1 floundered.

 

[1960Pats]

Remaining schedules:

1. Carolina (Chicago): @ JAX, vs TB
2. Arizona: @ PHI, vs SEA
3. Washington: vs SF, vs DAL
4. New England: @ BUF, vs NYJ

Because of the tough schedule the Pats played compared to all the teams around them they probably won't stay at 4. It won't matter if Bill is making the choices though unless there are players there that he wants to coach.

 

[1960Pats]

The amazing thing about this thread and tonight's win is that there's a whole other thread here arguing which of the 3 qbs is best, and everyone has a different idea. Many think Caleb sucks and that Daniels is the best.

So, here's my prediuction: the Patriots will beat the Jets, pick 5th, and Daniels will rise during the combine into top 2 position, Caleb will drop to #5, the Patriots will take Caleb, and a lot of people will complain that the 2 wins prevented us from picking Daniels!!!

We (and by that I mean EVERYONE) won't know what we have until they make the pick and we see him on the field. And even then it may take some time.

 

[festy1986]

You don't know that either. Historically speaking, teams miss on QBs every season, many time by a lot. Just last season the Panthers traded up from 2 to 1 only to see the #2 pick have a decent start to his career while the #1 floundered.

I DO know that. The numbers support it.

Historically speaking. The higher the pick the better the player.

 

[1960Pats]

While winning the Steelers and Broncos games provides a moment of satisfaction, what really sucks is that is has screwed up the future big time.

We’ll look back at this game as the “Caleb Williams or Marvin Harrison game” because it cost us a top pick for two otherwise meaningless games.

The problem is the clear conflict of interest at the moment. BB wants to get as many wins as possible to get closer to the record, but our rebuild requires as many losses as possible to get a better pick.

Which football league have you been watching? It clearly isn't the NYFL.

There are plenty of teams that win and don't sink to the bottom afterwards. Of all the HCs today that have had success NONE have been as poor as Bill has been without Brady. Triplin never had a losing season and Harbaugh hasn't had many. I think Reid has had 3 in his entire career. Bill has had 8 losing seasons in his 10 seasons without Brady. That's not the norm for anyone other than Blunder Bill.

 

[1960Pats]

I DO know that. The numbers support it.

Historically speaking. The higher the pick the better the player.

I put up four examples (two older and two newer) that show that history doesn't support your claim, and that was just at QB. Try to imagine how many HOF players there are at every position who weren't he first pick at that position. Historically there are probably hundreds (if not more) at every position.

 

[festy1986]

I put up four examples (two older and two newer) that show that history doesn't support your claim, and that was just at QB. Try to imagine how many HOF players there are at every position who weren't he first pick at that position. Historically there are probably hundreds (if not more) at every position.

You put up 4 examples across decades and decades and DECADES of drafts and it proves what?

No one said, every time, of every draft, every pick that the higher the pick the better the player.

I said, historically speaking, it's proven true, more times over and over.

I said that because that's a fact.

If the Patriots don't lose out and move ahead of Washington because of SOS then they're actually better off trading back 10 slots and accumulate another first and a second or whatever someone is willing to pay for a top 6 pick then to waste it on the third QB off the board that 5 teams already passed on.

The Hidden Advantage of Being a High NFL Draft Pick

What if I told you that NFL teams unwittingly contribute to their own mediocrity by stifling the growth of late-round draft picks while incubating an ideal environment for their ...

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[1960Pats]

18 of the last 30 SB winning QB’s were 1st round picks, and Brady won 7. This means that aside from Brady only 5 QB’s drafted outside of the 1st round won a Lombardi.

Funny how you want to cheery pick the stats. Brady was the 199th pick behind a slew of other QBs and he won 7, proving the point being made. Why not just take out all of the QBs that don't fit your argument? Why stop with Brady?

And who says that winning it all is the only determining factor? Jackson Lamar hasn't won but I'm sure that plenty of teams would give up the QB they drafted ahead of him if given the chance. The same is true for many QBs.

 

[Huckleberry1]

OK, if that's what you see as important then have fun with it, I just find more positives in winning games.

I have no problem with that, anyone who would rather have wins after they have been eliminated from the playoffs, instead of a higher pick can root for the wins, I just think they need a franchise QB desperately, and believe the higher their pick the better chance they have to get one.

 

[Huckleberry1]

^ This so perfectly sums up my exact stance on this. I'll add just a little to this.

I have no issue with people cheering on the team to win even when losing puts us in better draft position. That is why I've never quoted anyone rooting for the team to win and gave them **** for it. I think it's extremely short sighted and any argument that winning these last few games helps more than a higher draft pick is laughable, BUT, I do get it. In real life some people have a hard time doing things that are best for them in the long run because they are so addicted and reliant on instant gratification. This is just the sports version of that to me.

There's a minority of people in this already minority group though that tries to pretend to not get why fans would care about having a higher draft pick over winning regular season games that mean nothing anymore in the grand scheme of things. These people are, quite frankly, either very stupid, or very disingenuous.. Those really are the only options.. Because the logic and stance behind wanting a higher draft pick over going 6-11 instead of 4-13 is not that hard to grasp. Even if you disagree with it.

Both sides of this fence make sense for different reasons.

Agree 100%. Fans of every team in every sport that has a draft will often root for their team to lose once they have been eliminated from contention so they can get a better pick. And prior to the last few days I had never come across a fan who was so arrogant, and holier than thou, that they called those rooting for the higher pick “ quitters.” Quitting on what? The team has already been eliminated from winning anything, so all fans are doing is hoping their team will get better choices in the draft so they can have a better shot at winning something in the coming season. If fans want to keep rooting for wins after the team has been eliminated then go for it, I have no problem with that at all. I want the highest pick they can get, so I will root for them to lose out.

 

[festy1986]

Agree 100%. Fans of every team in every sport that has a draft will often root for their team to lose once they have been eliminated from contention so they can get a better pick. And prior to the last few days I had never come across a fan who was so arrogant, and holier than thou, that they called those rooting for the higher pick “ quitters.” Quitting on what? The team has already been eliminated from winning anything, so all fans are doing is hoping their team will get better choices in the draft so they can have a better shot at winning something in the coming season. If fans want to keep rooting for wins after the team has been eliminated then go for it, I have no problem with that at all. I want the highest pick they can get, so I will root for them to lose out.

I don't trust anyone who can't see that sometimes the way to the top is through the bottom.

As I said over and over. We're not talking about tanking with 16 and half games left here. We're talking about 3 games left (at that point) where the only thing left to decide is if you get a crack at two of the best prospects in the draft.

Winning your way out of that spot after the season you just had is more disastrous than being in that spot to begin with.

They'll likely be doing this again next year with a brand new coach and a new staff and a QB they pull off the scrapheap all because they couldn't just finish the job.

But it's ok man, cause they didn't quit!

 

[Huckleberry1]

Maybe it’s because they have won so much for so long that they haven’t been in position to get a really high pick, but this is the first time I have ever seen some fans giving other fans **** about rooting for a high pick once their team has been eliminated from contention. I have no problem with fans continuing to root for the team as long as they want, but labelling the fans who want the highest pick possible as “ quitters” who don’t care about the team as much as they do, is a first for me. Once they are eliminated from contention I want the highest pick possible, and I think that’s true of most fans, even if that does make us “quitters.”

 

[Huckleberry1]

I don't trust anyone who can't see that sometimes the way to the top is through the bottom.

As I said over and over. We're not talking about tanking with 16 and half games left here. We're talking about 3 games left (at that point) where the only thing left to decide is if you get a crack at two of the best prospects in the draft.

Winning your way out of that spot after the season you just had is more disastrous than being in that spot to begin with.

They'll likely be doing this again next year with a brand new coach and a new staff and a QB they pull off the scrapheap all because they couldn't just finish the job.

But it's ok man, cause they didn't quit!

I don’t even think that’s” tanking.” Tanking is something only the team can do, and other than GM’s keeping available players out of availability I don’t think it happens, as players and coaches get paid by performance, and aren’t going to suck so the team gets a higher pick. What we are talking about is fans wanting their team to lose after they have been eliminated from contention, and that’s commonplace across every sport that has a draft. And until this week I had never seen anyone call their fellow fans “ quitters” for rooting for a higher pick. Imo that takes a special kind of arrogance, as they are labelling the vast majority of fans as “ quitters.” While holding themself up a “ true fan.”

I also think it’s delusional to think that fans wanting a higher pick causes players and coaches to go out and lose on purpose.

 

[1960Pats]

I never will understand this line of thinking. How is a win -- ANY win -- "meaningless"? The very nature of competition is to pursue victory. It's why they play the games and why we watch them with vested interest in who's playing. WINNING is an end unto itself, with its own rewards however often it occurs and regardless of playoff implications.

The draft is a sideshow and at best a roll-of-the-dice crapshoot. it happens during the offseason and promises nothing. You are trading the chance to enjoy what you can from the here and now for a scratch ticket four months away. You have no idea a draft slot at 4 will be any more "meaningful" than at 5, 6 or 7.

The reality of what we have now is a struggling team. But at least it's football and even losing has much to learn from. It sure beats living in a future fantasy populated by imaginary rookie "saviors."

I played a little football in my youth and I know that if I played with one of those clowns who thinks losing is an option ANY time then I probably would have knocked that **** out of him during practice. They same was true for players who couldn't keep their mouth shut when you had a team down.

Anyone who relishes the idea of losing is a loser, plain and simple. And if it's being done on purpose that makes them a cheater too.

 

[Clonamery]

I have no problem with that, anyone who would rather have wins after they have been eliminated from the playoffs, instead of a higher pick can root for the wins, I just think they need a franchise QB desperately, and believe the higher their pick the better chance they have to get one.

Smarter people than me have shown in this thread that history doesn't back this up over the last 25-30 years. But I can see the Marketing value in that belief, though.