Yet another Brady argument thread

[Ian]

Having Tom Brady is way better than not having Tom Brady. But if you can’t afford to put a team around him (because if the cap issues created by staying on top so long) it’s better to rebuild without him than to lose with him.

They could have, provided they extended him at a level that would have been ridiculous (where the contract went beyond 44 or 45). But as you mentioned, that money is still coming due. And they couldn't have added that level of talent around him.

They were lucky during part of that second run due to some of the younger guys they had and I think, @All3Phases, that's a point that's being missed. You can keep kicking the can down the road, but the money comes due eventually and causes a down year (just like we saw in 2020) when they had no money, other than what they managed to pay Newton.

So yes, having Brady would have been great, but the club did benefit by getting Jones in 2020 at #15. With Brady here, it's a lost season for him and the Patriots might have missed out on Jones, which would have set them back considering, as I mentioned, there hasn't really been a quality QB sitting in that 10-20 draft slot the last couple of seasons.

Again, be thankful Brady went to Tampa and won the ring. Otherwise, as I mentioned, the rest is hindsight with impossible to predict hypotheticals that at the end of the day - four years later - isn't worth arguing about.

 

[Ian]

Seems like you agree he wanted a long term deal here and never received one

Again, I agree, they should have kept him. But knowing what we know now, all that would have done was delay the inevitable and cost him a shot at really cementing his legacy. Not to mention, the financial end of it wouldn't have worked. You would have just seen a repeat of what ultimately happened anyway (and they wouldn't have been able to sign the same group they had), and it might have even been worse depending on how the deal was structured.

You're fighting a losing battle. The money always, always, always comes due.

 

[All3Phases]

So your plan was to bring back Brady and tank and spend 50 of the 60 mill you will have available to rebuild in him and expect to build a competitive team with $10 mill in cap space?

Jesus

No. That’s not how it works. The first year cap hit is by far the lowest. You are now grasping at straws saying you think there must be math that can do what you want.

Brady’s cap hit in 2021 was 10$ mil. There, I gave you a scenario to free up space

Let’s put it another way. The patriots had about 65 million in cap space between 2020 and 2021 and they used all of it to build the team they did. Had they spent 50 of the 65 on Brady they could not have brought in anywhere near the amount or quality of players they did because they would have only had 15 mill to do it with.

His cap hit in 2021 was 10$ mil. They spent 163$ mil guaranteed in the 2021 offseasons on FAs, he would’ve been 25 of that 163

Basically your plan takes away Thuney from the 2020 team then adds him back in 2021 while many other players are leaving.

What the hell are you talking about

You cannot “maneuver the cap any way you want” You cannot spent 50 million more on one player without spending 50 million less in others.

Jesus

You admit they would have sucked in 2020 and then had 10 mill to spend on fee agency in 2021. They would have sucked again. That is exactly my point.

I don’t think they would’ve sucked, they never have with Brady and bill. Your 2021 math is kind of laughable at this point

Having Tom Brady is way better than not having Tom Brady. But if you can’t afford to put a team around him (because if the cap issues created by staying on top so long) it’s better to rebuild without him than to lose with him.

This is another argument, but I don’t think they sacrificed in the decade to be in cap trouble like you do

2019 team wasn’t winning. 2020 would have been measurably worse, 2021 would not have had room to improve appreciably.

You simply don’t know this

Brady choosing to leave was best for him and best in the long run for the patriots and it’s almost impossible to see success in the interim if he had stayed with a team crumbling around him.

I very much disagree with your last statement, clearly. At this point this discussion is going nowhere

 

[All3Phases]

Again, I agree, they should have kept him

I never even argued If they Shoudve, I understand their POV very much. Just that it was their decision in the end

. But knowing what we know now, all that would have done was delay the inevitable and cost him a shot at really cementing his legacy. Not to mention, the financial end of it wouldn't have worked. You would have just seen a repeat of what ultimately happened anyway (and they wouldn't have been able to sign the same group they had), and it might have even been worse depending on how the deal was structured.

You're fighting a losing battle. The money always, always, always comes due.

I don’t disagree, and like you said above, The inevitable could’ve been pushed past Brady’s career (like it was in real life for TB). That was never my argument or disagreement, just that there are certainly way they could’ve been competitive in between

 

[Ian]

I very much disagree with your last statement, clearly. At this point this discussion is going nowhere

Not much to argue about. Again, you can win with little when you have Gronk and Edelman (and they didn't when they were without one or both), you can't win when you don't have at least one or both levels of guys like that to make up for lesser players around them.

At best, they get to the postseason, but Brady can't work miracles. You saw that in 2021 and certainly in 2022. You end up maybe one game better than Mac and maybe you get out of the Wild Card round, but possibly not if the opponent was still Buffalo.

 

[Ian]

I never even argued If they Shoudve, I understand their POV very much. Just that it was their decision in the end

I don’t disagree, and like you said above, The inevitable could’ve been pushed past Brady’s career (like it was in real life for TB). That was never my argument or disagreement, just that there are certainly way they could’ve been competitive in between

The team was competitive in 2021, just like, yes, they would have been competitive with Brady. But being competitive enough to compete in the postseason are two different things and again, Brady would have been facing a tough time competing with that group of players and clearly would have been missing several of them due to $$. The end result probably would have been - as I mentioned - fairly similar.

 

[All3Phases]

Not much to argue about. Again, you can win with little when you have Gronk and Edelman (and they didn't when they were without one or both), you can't win when you don't have at least one or both levels of guys like that to make up for lesser players around them.

I think we have all witnessed them win with less. I’m not guaranteeing a championship or anything, but they would’ve been in the mix imo

At best, they get to the postseason, but Brady can't work miracles. You saw that in 2021 and certainly in 2022. You end up maybe one game better than Mac and maybe you get out of the Wild Card round, but possibly not if the opponent was still Buffalo.

not sure; I think an mvp level qb is better then 1 game better than a rookie qb who is pretty mediocre. The team was 2-7 in 2021 when the defense allowed more than 17 points, I feel like that could’ve been a big difference

 

[All3Phases]

The team was competitive in 2021, just like, yes, they would have been competitive with Brady. But being competitive enough to compete in the postseason are two different things and again, Brady would have been facing a tough time competing with that group of players and clearly would have been missing several of them due to $$. The end result probably would have been - as I mentioned - fairly similar.

They weren’t competitive really; 2-7 when the defense allowed more than 17 points. Simply impossible to predict their weekly fate and how other teams play them. But my guess is they would’ve been competitive with Buffalo and KC, could’ve lost to both, could’ve been dogfights, who knows

 

[Ian]

They weren’t competitive really; 2-7 when the defense allowed more than 18 points. Simply impossible to predict their weekly fate and how other teams play them. But my guess is they would’ve been competitive with Buffalo and KC, could’ve lost to both, could’ve been dogfights, who knows

Wouldn't have been a dogfight. And sure, I already said maybe they win one more game in the regular season and maybe they get out of the Wild Card Round. But again, if it still came down to beating Buffalo, while Brady could have made that more of a fight, they were injured down the stretch defensively, and it would have just been frustrating. They couldn't get off the field and no way Brady is lighting it up with a depleted group that wouldn't have included Edelman or Gronk (because Gronk definitely wasn't coming back here and Jules' knee was gone).

 

[Ian]

They weren’t competitive really; 2-7 when the defense allowed more than 17 points. Simply impossible to predict their weekly fate and how other teams play them. But my guess is they would’ve been competitive with Buffalo and KC, could’ve lost to both, could’ve been dogfights, who knows

Again, at the end of the day, Jones needed to be battle-tested like that and they were fortunate things fell the way they did. Maybe Jones isn't the long-term answer, but he's the best of the players in that draft position these last few seasons and the experience could very well end up serving him well this year.

I'm sad it ended, but I'm just trying to get back on board and ride the next train. Gotta let this one go

 

[All3Phases]

Wouldn't have been a dogfight. And sure, I already said maybe they win one more game in the regular season and maybe they get out of the Wild Card Round. But again, if it still came down to beating Buffalo, while Brady could have made that more of a fight, they were injured down the stretch defensively, and it would have just been frustrating. They couldn't get off the field and no way Brady is lighting it up with a depleted group that wouldn't have included Edelman or Gronk (because Gronk definitely wasn't coming back here and Jules' knee was gone).

Ya we will have to disagree on the team being 1 game better, their seeding could’ve totally been altered, they could’ve won the division, who knows what happens. Not even getting into health predictions

 

[All3Phases]

Again, at the end of the day, Jones needed to be battle-tested like that and they were fortunate things fell the way they did. Maybe Jones isn't the long-term answer, but he's the best of the players in that draft position these last few seasons and the experience could very well end up serving him well this year.

I'm sad it ended, but I'm just trying to get back on board and ride the next train. Gotta let this one go

My entire argument, was a disagreement on him choosing to leave or not. I’m over him being here, and was happy to see him win in Tampa. I just have a knack to not let arguments go. You agree with me on 90% of what I’ve argued over the last 2 days

 

[Ian]

Ya we will have to disagree on the team being 1 game better, their seeding could’ve totally been altered, they could’ve won the division, who knows what happens. Not even getting into health predictions

LOL, OK. But they would have been grossly overmatched, wouldn't you say? And regardless, there would have been no Gronk, and no Edelman...so...we saw what happened in 2019 and he had Edelman. Buffalo was ridiculously good, as much as it pains me to say it. Honestly, I'm glad it didn't come down to that because losing to Josh Allen would have opened up that talk, and I'm glad it didn't happen.

 

[Tunescribe]

Jesus

Brady’s cap hit in 2021 was 10$ mil. There, I gave you a scenario to free up space

His cap hit in 2021 was 10$ mil. They spent 163$ mil guaranteed in the 2021 offseasons on FAs, he would’ve been 25 of that 163

What the hell are you talking about

Jesus

I don’t think they would’ve sucked, they never have with Brady and bill. Your 2021 math is kind of laughable at this point

This is another argument, but I don’t think they sacrificed in the decade to be in cap trouble like you do

You simply don’t know this

I very much disagree with your last statement, clearly. At this point this discussion is going nowhere

 

[Ian]

My entire argument, was a disagreement on him choosing to leave or not.

He chose not to re-sign. But we've covered the "why" part of it, and that's because they decided to get off the train and rip the bandaid off. Again, I hated it at the time, but looking back, they at least planned it well enough that it at least only stung for a little while.

I’m over him being here, and was happy to see him win in Tampa. I just have a knack to not let arguments go. You agree with me on 90% of what I’ve argued over the last 2 days

Seems like we're on the same page, but as @Ring6 said, the financials were what they were. Losing both Gronk and Edelman would have been huge, and again, hindsight being what it is, it was the better way to go. Edelman was probably the biggest reason because the guy was so underpaid for as talented as he was. As I said, you can win with less when you have those types of players (Gronk and Edelman). Hard to win big games without them.

It was a crazy stretch, but again, is what it is. Would have just seen him probably come up short each season, and that would have been disappointing. I like the way he ultimately went out a little better.

 

[All3Phases]

LOL, OK. But they would have been grossly overmatched, wouldn't you say? And regardless, there would have been no Gronk, and no Edelman...so...we saw what happened in 2019 and he had Edelman.

If Buffalo played perfectly, then sure. We simply have no idea how any of those games turn out. A Brady lead offense with a dominant defense to me is winning 11 games at a minimum, and that’s what Buffalo won. What happens if they win the division, and start hosting playing games? Who knows

Buffalo was ridiculously good, as much as it pains me to say it. Honestly, I'm glad it didn't come down to that because losing to Josh Allen would have opened up that talk, and I'm glad it didn't happen.

They were very good and still are, for sure

 

[All3Phases]

He chose not to re-sign. But we've covered the "why" part of it, and that's because they decided to get off the train and rip the bandaid off. Again, I hated it at the time, but looking back, they at least planned it well enough that it at least only stung for a little while.

He chose not to sign a contract offer that was much worse than one he received in Tampa, after years of the team not extending offers that were of his interest. We can agree, they ripped the band aid off if that’s how you want to word it

Seems like we're on the same page, but as @Ring6 said, the financials were what they were. Losing both Gronk and Edelman would have been huge, and again, hindsight being what it is, it was the better way to go. Edelman was probably the biggest reason because the guy was so underpaid for as talented as he was. As I said, you can win with less when you have those types of players (Gronk and Edelman). Hard to win big games without them.

The financials were what they were, and instead of throwing money at a wall and hoping something sticks, they would’ve had to be a little more specific in who they wanted to target. But to your last point; we both have seen them win with less, we don’t need to rehash, but 06 was an awful offensive roster that competed, 01-04 the offensive rosters didn’t have any stand out offensive stars. It’s not like we haven’t seen them compete with average offensive talent

It was a crazy stretch, but again, is what it is. Would have just seen him probably come up short each season, and that would have been disappointing. I like the way he ultimately went out a little better.

 

[Ian]

If Buffalo played perfectly, then sure. We simply have no idea how any of those games turn out. A Brady lead offense with a dominant defense to me is winning 11 games at a minimum, and that’s what Buffalo won. What happens if they win the division, and start hosting playing games? Who knows

You watched the Tennessee game, right? Yikes...

Again, would have been tough. He would have fought and put up a Brady-esque effort, but he wouldn't have had the bullets around him. And I doubt they would have ended up with the top seed, which would have required three wins to win the Conference. He lucked out having all that around him in Tampa. And even with everyone healthy defensively that year, it would have been a chore to keep up with and beat Buffalo.

Honestly, being here might have hurt his legacy because each year of getting bounced would have only hurt him further. That win in Tampa was big. So again, gotta put this one in the barn and be glad things fell the way they did.

 

[All3Phases]

Will you be posting the same thing on any of Rings post?

 

[Ian]

He chose not to sign a contract offer that was much worse than one he received in Tampa, after years of the team not extending offers that were of his interest. We can agree, they ripped the band aid off if that’s how you want to word it

Then, there you go

The financials were what they were, and instead of throwing money at a wall and hoping something sticks, they would’ve had to be a little more specific in who they wanted to target. But to your last point; we both have seen them win with less, we don’t need to rehash, but 06 was an awful offensive roster that competed, 01-04 the offensive rosters didn’t have any stand out offensive stars. It’s not like we haven’t seen them compete with average offensive talent

That would have been a lot. The guy was nearly 20-years younger at that time and that defensive group was pretty solid. The only thing that honestly beat them that year was the flu at the end. They didn't have that type of defense this time around, and yes, that is a major difference.