BB THE GOAT

[All3Phases]

You never say anything, like when I point out Deshaun Watson and Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing and their teams had single digit victories… you especially avoid confronting those uncomfortable paradoxes. You never say anything, you avoid those examples like the plague.

What’s there to avoid? Brees led the saints to .616 winning %, he was great. Your argument is that he didn’t win multiple rings. Tough hill to die on. But the saints look good without him for sure. Watson is a talented quarterback, not everything is 100% and never claimed it to be. It’s the reason why you avoid why the bucs were awful before Brady, belichick is awful without Brady and Reid never won without mahomes. History tells us teams that have consistent success had elite qbs. Do you agree Or disagree? You’re stuck loving year to year with one off samples. You can make fun of drew Brees, they were mostly competitive every year because of him. Same as Indy with Peyton and the packers with Rodgers

 

[Wozzy]

What’s there to avoid? Brees led the saints to .616 winning %, he was great. Your argument is that he didn’t win multiple rings. Tough hill to die on. But the saints look good without him for sure. Watson is a talented quarterback, not everything is 100% and never claimed it to be. It’s the reason why you avoid why the bucs were awful before Brady, belichick is awful without Brady and Reid never won without mahomes. History tells us teams that have consistent success had elite qbs. Do you agree Or disagree? You’re stuck loving year to year with one off samples. You can make fun of drew Brees, they were mostly competitive every year because of him. Same as Indy with Peyton and the packers with Rodgers

In 2016 when Brees led the NFL in passing his team was ranked 32nd in defense… dead last. But Tom Brady’s magic powers would have willed that defense to spectacular Super Bowl winning heights. This is the argument of someone who likes the smell of his own farts.

By your measure Tom Brady should have 23 rings. By your measure Nick Foles never should have beaten Tom. Eli shouldn’t have beaten him twice.

But you Brady zealots find yourself in these weird conundrums, where on one hand a magic QB is necessary but have to explain how Nick Foles found magic powers for one season.. then he went back to being a career backup after that. Flacco, Dilfer… it’s odd how many of these guys had the magic for one season then it disappeared.

 

[All3Phases]

In 2016 when Brees led the NFL in passing his team was ranked 32nd in defense… dead last. But Tom Brady’s magic powers would have willed that defense to spectacular Super Bowl winning heights. This is the argument of someone who likes the smell of his own farts.

By your measure Tom Brady should have 23 rings. By your measure Nick Foles never should have beaten Tom. Eli shouldn’t have beaten him twice.

But you Brady zealots find yourself in these weird conundrums, where on one hand a magic QB is necessary but have to explain how Nick Foles found magic powers for one season.. then he went back to being a career backup after that. Flacco, Dilfer… it’s odd how many of these guys had the magic for one season then it disappeared.

you continue to stick to the foles and flacco examples, and avoid talking about why the “greatest football coach of all time” is having a hard time winning a playoff game without Brady. Like you’d say, you’re avoiding it like the plague. He lost 1 key in his cog and he seems a lot worse at his job. Why?

You’re the king of 1 year samples, Brees won over 60% of his games with the saints, Brady won 66% of his games with a franchise that was in the dirt. Manning won 70% of his games in Indy, Rodgers won 66%. Let’s go through the elite qbs of this generation and see how it correlates

 

[Ring 6]

We can continue this discussion when both of their careers are over. The only person clowning himself currently is belichick running his teams when Brady isn’t there. And you can prove otherwise

There is no reason for discussion. You gave your opinion and that disqualifies you from being taken seriously on the matter.

 

[Guts]

In 2016 when Brees led the NFL in passing his team was ranked 32nd in defense… dead last. But Tom Brady’s magic powers would have willed that defense to spectacular Super Bowl winning heights. This is the argument of someone who likes the smell of his own farts.

By your measure Tom Brady should have 23 rings. By your measure Nick Foles never should have beaten Tom. Eli shouldn’t have beaten him twice.

But you Brady zealots find yourself in these weird conundrums, where on one hand a magic QB is necessary but have to explain how Nick Foles found magic powers for one season.. then he went back to being a career backup after that. Flacco, Dilfer… it’s odd how many of these guys had the magic for one season then it disappeared.

It's the ultimate team game, but it ultimately comes down to the players and no player gets the most credit or the blame than the QB. Fair or not look at every starting QB whose won a Superbowl the past 10 years

Mahomes
Stafford- Pro Bowl QB that season
Brady
Mahomes
Brady
Foles- anomaly but had a magical postseason rub
Brady
Manning- All time great defense and Manning did enough
Brady
Wilson
Flacco- 12 TDs 0 INTs in his run
Eli
Rodgers

Other than Foles , Flacco(who had magical postseason runs) and Peyton(who had a historical defense) every QB who won it was playing at an elite level.

KC won a chip a year after naming Mahomes starter and you give credit to Reid more when he couldn't get it done with Smith or McNabb.

Coaches are way more important in the NFL than other sports they make a huge difference, but in the end the players have to execute and perform when it matters most. Those are usually the teams led by a top QB

 

[sb1]

How is it an embarrassment? How many teams today are going 16-0 its an accomplishment that the organization can say they have on top of all the others.. and your right 8 straight appearances not 10... I was so drastically off... Colts shouldn't even be mentioned with the patriots..

Not even the slightest bit embarrassing. Only one team in one season ever went 16-0. The Colts had a chance to become the second team but they were cowards and pulled the plug on their run. The Pats had the stones to go for it and withstand everything other teams had to try and stop the streak.

That accomplishment should be celebrated not cringed at. The only embarrassment is anyone who is actually equating that accomplishment to the Colts AFC finalist banners. Considering the source of who you’re quoting that’s par for the course.

 

[Real fan 02]

Not even the slightest bit embarrassing. Only one team in one season ever went 16-0. The Colts had a chance to become the second team but they were cowards and pulled the plug on their run. The Pats had the stones to go for it and withstand everything other teams had to try and stop the streak.

That accomplishment should be celebrated not cringed at. The only embarrassment is anyone who is actually equating that accomplishment to the Colts AFC finalist banners. Considering the source of who you’re quoting that’s par for the course.

Well said... yeah that poster I don't know.. felt like he was minimizing that season.. the fashion that we were winning... was absolutely blowouts in some of those games... But we have so much to be proud of as patriots fans

 

[TheRainMaker]

How is it an embarrassment? How many teams today are going 16-0 its an accomplishment that the organization can say they have on top of all the others.. and your right 8 straight appearances not 10... I was so drastically off... Colts shouldn't even be mentioned with the patriots..

Not even the slightest bit embarrassing. Only one team in one season ever went 16-0. The Colts had a chance to become the second team but they were cowards and pulled the plug on their run. The Pats had the stones to go for it and withstand everything other teams had to try and stop the streak.

That accomplishment should be celebrated not cringed at. The only embarrassment is anyone who is actually equating that accomplishment to the Colts AFC finalist banners. Considering the source of who you’re quoting that’s par for the course.

The Pats were 18-0 and were 14 point favorites going into the game. 99% of the media was laughing at the Giants saying they had no shot. And there's the jokes of Eli Manning being mentally handicapped. It was/is the biggest choke job in sports history.

 

[Real fan 02]

The Pats were 18-0 and were 14 point favorites going into the game. 99% of the media was laughing at the Giants saying they had no shot. And there's the jokes of Eli Manning being mentally handicapped. It was/is the biggest choke job in sports history.

As bad as we played offensively we still had so many opportunities to win... after that game it became like we were Superbowl cursed until the Malcom butler heroics against Seahawks..

We had all those great veterans on D.. granted older. But I when Brady wasn't at his best we couldn't seal the deal on defense.

As much as Samuel talks he would have been resigned had he made that interception... lol

 

[Ring 6]

It's the ultimate team game, but it ultimately comes down to the players and no player gets the most credit or the blame than the QB. Fair or not look at every starting QB whose won a Superbowl the past 10 years

Mahomes
Stafford- Pro Bowl QB that season
Brady
Mahomes
Brady
Foles- anomaly but had a magical postseason rub
Brady
Manning- All time great defense and Manning did enough
Brady
Wilson
Flacco- 12 TDs 0 INTs in his run
Eli
Rodgers

Other than Foles , Flacco(who had magical postseason runs) and Peyton(who had a historical defense) every QB who won it was playing at an elite level.

KC won a chip a year after naming Mahomes starter and you give credit to Reid more when he couldn't get it done with Smith or McNabb.

Coaches are way more important in the NFL than other sports they make a huge difference, but in the end the players have to execute and perform when it matters most. Those are usually the teams led by a top QB

This is a good jumping off point for the circular nature of these king of arguments.
The team won so therefore the Qb was good and therefore they won because of the Qb.
You hit some obvious examples in here. Stafford. For 11 of his 12 years in the NFL he couldn’t win a playoff game. Then in one year his team wins a SB and he is proof that it’s all about the QB and you can’t win without an elite QB.
Wilson. He won 1 SB with the best defense in the NFL and one of the top running games. Despite the defense remaining elite for 3 more years he never won again. Without the best other 52 in the league surrounding him he has won 3 playoff games in 8 years. Just to scale that, there have been 92 playoff wins. 92/32 teams means the average team wins 2.875 playoff games. Your example of proof that you need an elite QB to win SBs has been average in winning playoff games for the last 8 years.
Flacco. Do you really think Joe Flacco suddenly became an elite QB for a month then went back to average or worse for the rest of his career? Or was he just a piece of a team that dominated. And if that did happen, you are only proving that any QB can pretend to be elite even though they aren’t, therefore proving you don’t need an elite QB. Sane with Foles.
Early Brady, old Peyton and lifetime Eli were not dominating focal points of their teams. Brady won 3 of his 6 here when he was a cog in the machine and Peyton won half of his SBs when he was a liability. Peyton is actually a good argument AGAINST “it’s all about thf QB” because they built and entire organization around giving him weapons and playing defense from ahead and he consistently choked. Indy built the epitome of the “it’s all about the Qb” team and won 1 SB in 13 years.

Football is a team game. Teams with good players and good coaches win. Teams with poor talent or bad coaching don’t.
You can take the “you can only win with an elite qb” argument, which requires changing only to mostly and changing elite to “or won who wins” argument and apply it to coaches, apply it to defenses, OLs, DL, secondary, etc and you will find teams win with good players and strengths in all areas are equally important.
Yes, the NFL has changed the rules to accentuate passing and scoring. What this has done is make QB stat accumulation easy and create the idea that decent QBs are elite because of stats.
The 2021 Rams didn’t win because of an elite Qb. They won because the gave an average QB who never was good enough to elevate a team to winners, the best weapons, excellent offensive coaching and a dominating defense.
The quality of the other 52 players and coaches elevates the play and reputation of the QB, to create a circular argument that the that was good enough to win, only was because of the QB. And the ease of stat accumulation at the QB position means that any decent QB that you put on a good, well coached team, is suddenly elite because they won and put up stats. It’s impossible for a QB on a good winning team in today nfl to not pit up stats that dwarf historic QB stats from before the fantasy football, can’t touch the QB, can’t defend receivers, let’s make every game 50-49 rule changes.

 

[All3Phases]

There is no reason for discussion. You gave your opinion and that disqualifies you from being taken seriously on the matter.

Good argument, maybe it’s time for you to take another “break”

 

[Ring 6]

It's the ultimate team game, but it ultimately comes down to the players and no player gets the most credit or the blame than the QB. Fair or not look at every starting QB whose won a Superbowl the past 10 years

Mahomes
Stafford- Pro Bowl QB that season
Brady
Mahomes
Brady
Foles- anomaly but had a magical postseason rub
Brady
Manning- All time great defense and Manning did enough
Brady
Wilson
Flacco- 12 TDs 0 INTs in his run
Eli
Rodgers

Other than Foles , Flacco(who had magical postseason runs) and Peyton(who had a historical defense) every QB who won it was playing at an elite level.

KC won a chip a year after naming Mahomes starter and you give credit to Reid more when he couldn't get it done with Smith or McNabb.

Coaches are way more important in the NFL than other sports they make a huge difference, but in the end the players have to execute and perform when it matters most. Those are usually the teams led by a top QB

I left out another good example. Aaron Rodgers.
The story goes, you need an elite QB to win SBs and the QB is the most important factor.
Hmmm
Many people call Rodgers potentially the GOAT.
Rodgers has won 1 SB in 14 years.
Guess which year that was? The year his defense allowed the fewest points of any in his career. Hmmm.
In 14 years, Rodgers has won 11 playoffs games, and in the 13 non-SB years he won 7.
In those 13 years there were 147(? my math could be slightly off) which is about 5 per team. Does “elite qb” equal 2 more playoff wins in 13 years and prove that it’s all about the QB?
How do we reconcile the severe lack of championship success of the Packers with their elite QB if it’s all about the QB?
We can do the same for Brees and it would look even worse.

 

[Ring 6]

Good argument, maybe it’s time for you to take another break

I’m sure after that exchange you add praying that I do.

 

[crawhammer]

OK. Who else wins 6?

Brady and Reid. Two brilliant offensive minds. Brady also would have cleaned up some of Reid's clock management issues.

Reid accomplished a lot with McNabb who overall was a good quarterback who had a tier 1 QB stretch from 2000-2004. Look at what Reid is doing with Mahomes, the best quarterback of his generation.

Belichick and Reid are both great head coaches. Belichick is 3-0 against Reid in the postseason which is a huge legacy advantage. So Belichick ranks higher for now (which doubtfully will change) but I can't think of two seasons that Reid ****ed up as badly as Belichick in 2015 and 2017.

 

[All3Phases]

I’m sure after that exchange you add praying that I do.

I don’t care if you do or not. I showed you my logic and you didn’t like it…I’m still waiting for somebody here to explain to me how the “greatest” coach of all time is a shell of himself without a HOF qb. I’m sure you’ll be up to it

 

[Ring 6]

I don’t care if you do or not. I showed you my logic and you didn’t like it…I’m still waiting for somebody here to explain to me how the “greatest” coach of all time is a shell of himself without a HOF qb. I’m sure you’ll be up to it

The greatest coach of all time doesn’t win every year, because none of the other coaches that he is greater than win every year either. He wins the most.
He is the greatest.

 

[All3Phases]

The greatest coach of all time doesn’t win every year, because none of the other coaches that he is greater than win every year either. He wins the most.
He is the greatest.

I didn’t say he should win every year. I didn’t say he should be as good as he was with Brady. I’m asking how the guy who you credit for building the roster and coaching and developing players, is 80-90 in 10 years, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win without 1 common denominator. Vs unprecedented winning with that player. Again, you don’t think the qb is as important as everybody else, so there should be a good explanation for it?

 

[Ring 6]

I didn’t say he should win every year. I didn’t say he should be as good as he was with Brady. I’m asking how the guy who you credit for building the roster and coaching and developing players, is 80-90 in 10 years, 0 division titles, 1 playoff win without 1 common denominator. Vs unprecedented winning with that player. Again, you don’t think the qb is as important as everybody else, so there should be a good explanation for it?

Nobody wins every year, he wins more than anyone.
All 28 years are part of his career, and it is better than anyone who has ever coached.

 

[All3Phases]

Nobody wins every year, he wins more than anyone.
All 28 years are part of his career, and it is better than anyone who has ever coached.

Watching you sidestep my question is always funny. It’s not a hard question

 

[Ring 6]

Watching you sidestep my question is always funny. It’s not a hard question

Didn’t sidestep anything. Belichick is the GOAT, it is not debatable. Arguing he isn’t perfect doesn’t change the fact he is the best ever. There are actually results of the games he coached that prove it.