Tom Brady says he's done "for good"

[Nehalem]

Annualized, roughly it would be around $25M for Brady or both of those clowns. Henry is a total ripoff as well. It's unreal how Team Bill tries to spin the cap in 2020 like it was impossible to spend $25M on Brady but they HAD TO sign McCourty and Thuney for the same price....because....the system or something.

Considering they took something like a $12m dead cap hit for Brady in 2020, they could have just signed Brady to $25m-ish and pushed out the dead cap...

In an ideal world we would have drafted AJ Brown instead of Harry, and then kept Brady instead of Smith/Agohlor. Brown-Jakobi-Bourne would be a pretty decent receiving core.

In a dream world BB and Gronk meetup in a bar and hug out over some beers.

 

[Biffins]

View attachment 49631

Some weird choices. But I guess noone else had 60 e.g.

 

[Biffins]

Annualized, roughly it would be around $25M for Brady or both of those clowns. Henry is a total ripoff as well. It's unreal how Team Bill tries to spin the cap in 2020 like it was impossible to spend $25M on Brady but they HAD TO sign McCourty and Thuney for the same price....because....the system or something.

Consider that we're paying same for our 2 mediocre TEs today as TB is for Brady.

BB just figured Brady's play would decline, and it didn't. That's about it.

 

[crawhammer]

Coaches are the ones who control the game planning, preparation, all the little details, etc. It's also a numbers thing. You've got 53 players per roster x 32 teams. Most coaching staffs are obviously much smaller. Not to mention - as we've seen, there are often even fewer good coaches collectively among that smaller group. So no where near as many coaches out there for replacements compared to players.

There are 8 billion people on the Planet Earth and as far as we know there are about 20 people who can be a competent or better quarterback in the NFL. Meanwhile Bill thinks he can pluck coaches right off the family tree. Elite impactful players are much harder to find (and far more important for success).

 

[Ian]

There are 8 billion people on the Planet Earth and as far as we know there are about 20 people who can be a competent or better quarterback in the NFL. Meanwhile Bill thinks he can pluck coaches right off the family tree. Elite impactful players are much harder to find (and far more important for success).

But competent players aren't. Again, we're not necessarily talking about quarterbacks, albeit good coaches with a competent quarterback can have success in this league. Still, you of all people should realize that a lack of quality coaching impacts even the most elite of players. You just sat through a season watching it down in Tampa.

 

[Ian]

There are 8 billion people on the Planet Earth and as far as we know there are about 20 people who can be a competent or better quarterback in the NFL. Meanwhile Bill thinks he can pluck coaches right off the family tree. Elite impactful players are much harder to find (and far more important for success).

And enough with this argument. His two kids are on the staff, and he brought back two former coaches, both of which were relatively successful in their previous roles (albeit I never liked Patricia's conservative style) and stuck them in roles they were incapable of handling.

Yes, that's on Bill, but stop repeating that same talking point over and over. And, both of the units being coached by his kids, surprisingly enough, have performed relatively well in recent years. Eventually, they're probably going to deserve a little credit for that.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Coaches are the ones who control the game planning, preparation, all the little details, etc. It's also a numbers thing. You've got 53 players per roster x 32 teams. Most coaching staffs are obviously much smaller. Not to mention - as we've seen, there are often even fewer good coaches collectively among that smaller group. So no where near as many coaches out there for replacements compared to players.

Ian, there are no metrics to measure "a good coach" when it comes to actual results. We see plenty of confirmation bias around here that so-and-so is a good/bad coach, Bill is the best, but the goalposts are always moving. How much impact does coaching really make? A few years ago when Brady left, an oddsmaker said that if the Patriots lost Bill Belichick for the season, his value is about 3 points. Not for each game...3 points over an entire season. But losing Brady and replacing him with an average QB is at least 7 points per game. This is an objective way of looking at it by professionals who have no skin in the game and are hedging billions of dollars in the gambling industry, figuring out the value of certain variables.

Why? Because how much value is there really? This board has like 12 threads on the front page about coaches, coordinators, strength trainers, assistants, etc. These guys are obsessed about here and don't move the needle. They simply don't. If they did, why do coaches make a fraction of the amount players make? It's rumored that Sean Payton just signed a groundbreaking deal of $17-20M per season. That's nice, but it's still not even close to the salary of a top player. Coordinators? Quarterbacks coaches? If these guys truly worked magic and made as big an impact as claimed, organizations would catch on quickly. It would be Andy Dalton at $15M plus Mr. Magic as the OC, and you have your solution. It doesn't work like that. Coaches are a dime a dozen. They don't play the game. Every team prepares and focuses on details. Every team comes up with special situational plays, goes through walkthrus, etc. In the end, the players are the difference, just like in every sport.

I also want to point out that a few years ago, the Patriots played the Cowboys. The Patriots won because the Cowboys made a few special teams miscues. After the game, Jerry Jones took a shot at Jason Garrett, saying that great special teams are the mark of a great coach. Everyone on here agreed. PFT agreed. The national media agreed. Fast forward to the last game of this season. For the entire 2022 season, there had been - to that point - only four kickoff returns for TDs. The Bills scored two in the final game. Can you imagine if the Patriots had scored these kickoff returns and the *********** for Bill? But since everyone has already made up their mind about "the genius coach" it's "oh, I can't believe these players." In reality, any other coach would be on the hot seat and probably fired for such a fiasco - TWICE - in a do-or-die game. How about the Raiders loss? Imagine what Patriots fans would be saying if the Chargers, or some other team, had thrown away a game like that, and how hard they'd come down on someone like Staley? Am I saying Bill is an idiot? No. I'm saying the goalposts are forever moving to ensure us that there's a big advantage because he's the coach, when in fact, there may not actually be any advantage at all.

 

[Ian]

Ian, there are no metrics to measure "a good coach" when it comes to actual results. We see plenty of confirmation bias around here that so-and-so is a good/bad coach, Bill is the best, but the goalposts are always moving. How much impact does coaching really make? A few years ago when Brady left, an oddsmaker said that if the Patriots lost Bill Belichick for the season, his value is about 3 points. Not for each game...3 points over an entire season. But losing Brady and replacing him with an average QB is at least 7 points per game. This is an objective way of looking at it by professionals who have no skin in the game and are hedging billions of dollars in the gambling industry, figuring out the value of certain variables.

Why? Because how much value is there really? This board has like 12 threads on the front page about coaches, coordinators, strength trainers, assistants, etc. These guys are obsessed about here and don't move the needle. They simply don't. If they did, why do coaches make a fraction of the amount players make? It's rumored that Sean Payton just signed a groundbreaking deal of $17-20M per season. That's nice, but it's still not even close to the salary of a top player. Coordinators? Quarterbacks coaches? If these guys truly worked magic and made as big an impact as claimed, organizations would catch on quickly. It would be Andy Dalton at $15M plus Mr. Magic as the OC, and you have your solution. It doesn't work like that. Coaches are a dime a dozen. They don't play the game. Every team prepares and focuses on details. Every team comes up with special situational plays, goes through walkthrus, etc. In the end, the players are the difference, just like in every sport.

I also want to point out that a few years ago, the Patriots played the Cowboys. The Patriots won because the Cowboys made a few special teams miscues. After the game, Jerry Jones took a shot at Jason Garrett, saying that great special teams are the mark of a great coach. Everyone on here agreed. PFT agreed. The national media agreed. Fast forward to the last game of this season. For the entire 2022 season, there had been - to that point - only four kickoff returns for TDs. The Bills scored two in the final game. Can you imagine if the Patriots had scored these kickoff returns and the *********** for Bill? But since everyone has already made up their mind about "the genius coach" it's "oh, I can't believe these players." In reality, any other coach would be on the hot seat and probably fired for such a fiasco - TWICE - in a do-or-die game. How about the Raiders loss? Imagine what Patriots fans would be saying if the Chargers, or some other team, had thrown away a game like that, and how hard they'd come down on someone like Staley? Am I saying Bill is an idiot? No. I'm saying the goalposts are forever moving to ensure us that there's a big advantage because he's the coach, when in fact, there may not actually be any advantage at all.

The comment you mentioned was in response to crawhammer making it seem like replacing coaches is super easy and that Bill should have anticipated every loss and that it was easy to replace them because, in crawhammer's mind, they're a dime a dozen. I know you also think that, but it's just not the case. You can get any guy to fill a role, but we saw at various times this season - especially on film - that it does play a factor.

My point to him was that there aren't exactly a ton of guys out there, and it's easier to find another competent player than a competent coach. Primarily because there are just far more players out there compared to coaches. So that's where my comment came from.

And I started off my comment with, "Obviously, most people agree that players win games," which I agree with you is definitely the case. But losing quality coaches is tough, which he saw first-hand after what Brady went through this season down there.

But as far as coaches go, salaries aside, it doesn't change the fact that coaches tend to be a priority for every struggling owner in the league. You see plenty of teams with elite talent lose because of poor coaching. So there is certainly an argument to be made that it does matter to an extent and that replacing coaches and staff is definitely harder than players and that's also because the talent pool is also so much smaller.

Players have talked about not wanting to coach because of the hours and the pay, so it's obvious that it's also a thing not everyone wants to do. Which makes it that much harder to replace when you do lose someone and don't have a lot of depth coming up behind them.

 

[Tunescribe]

Ian, there are no metrics to measure "a good coach" when it comes to actual results. We see plenty of confirmation bias around here that so-and-so is a good/bad coach, Bill is the best, but the goalposts are always moving. How much impact does coaching really make? A few years ago when Brady left, an oddsmaker said that if the Patriots lost Bill Belichick for the season, his value is about 3 points. Not for each game...3 points over an entire season. But losing Brady and replacing him with an average QB is at least 7 points per game. This is an objective way of looking at it by professionals who have no skin in the game and are hedging billions of dollars in the gambling industry, figuring out the value of certain variables.

Why? Because how much value is there really? This board has like 12 threads on the front page about coaches, coordinators, strength trainers, assistants, etc. These guys are obsessed about here and don't move the needle. They simply don't. If they did, why do coaches make a fraction of the amount players make? It's rumored that Sean Payton just signed a groundbreaking deal of $17-20M per season. That's nice, but it's still not even close to the salary of a top player. Coordinators? Quarterbacks coaches? If these guys truly worked magic and made as big an impact as claimed, organizations would catch on quickly. It would be Andy Dalton at $15M plus Mr. Magic as the OC, and you have your solution. It doesn't work like that. Coaches are a dime a dozen. They don't play the game. Every team prepares and focuses on details. Every team comes up with special situational plays, goes through walkthrus, etc. In the end, the players are the difference, just like in every sport.

I also want to point out that a few years ago, the Patriots played the Cowboys. The Patriots won because the Cowboys made a few special teams miscues. After the game, Jerry Jones took a shot at Jason Garrett, saying that great special teams are the mark of a great coach. Everyone on here agreed. PFT agreed. The national media agreed. Fast forward to the last game of this season. For the entire 2022 season, there had been - to that point - only four kickoff returns for TDs. The Bills scored two in the final game. Can you imagine if the Patriots had scored these kickoff returns and the *********** for Bill? But since everyone has already made up their mind about "the genius coach" it's "oh, I can't believe these players." In reality, any other coach would be on the hot seat and probably fired for such a fiasco - TWICE - in a do-or-die game. How about the Raiders loss? Imagine what Patriots fans would be saying if the Chargers, or some other team, had thrown away a game like that, and how hard they'd come down on someone like Staley? Am I saying Bill is an idiot? No. I'm saying the goalposts are forever moving to ensure us that there's a big advantage because he's the coach, when in fact, there may not actually be any advantage at all.

You and Urban Meyer would get along famously. You and Brian Daboll or Kevin O'Connell, though, probably not so much.

Urban Meyer on Jaguars' turnaround: They got a lot of different players in free agency

Urban Meyer isn't ready to concede that coaching is the reason the Jaguars improved so much in 2022.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

Also, an older piece that still rings true today ...

Coaching matters in NFL

Coaching can make a huge difference in the NFL -- just ask the Niners, writes Ross Tucker.

www.espn.com

 

[crawhammer]

But competent players aren't. Again, we're not necessarily talking about quarterbacks, albeit good coaches with a competent quarterback can have success in this league. Still, you of all people should realize that a lack of quality coaching impacts even the most elite of players. You just sat through a season watching it down in Tampa.

Lot of things went wrong for Tampa Bay this season. Including the coaching. My general belief on coaching is bad coaching can do more bad than good coaching can do good.

And enough with this argument. His two kids are on the staff, and he brought back two former coaches, both of which were relatively successful in their previous roles (albeit I never liked Patricia's conservative style) and stuck them in roles they were incapable of handling.

Yes, that's on Bill, but stop repeating that same talking point over and over. And, both of the units being coached by his kids, surprisingly enough, have performed relatively well in recent years. Eventually, they're probably going to deserve a little credit for that.

Your opinion that I'm biasedly critical of Belichick is obscuring your view of my comment. My point was Bill can pluck coaches from the family tree because he's done exactly that. Have him try that with his roster. Literally he can hire his sons, or friends, or relative unknowns for coaches. He can't do that with QB, or WR, or player #53. Inexact or arbitrary doesn't work with players. They're much harder shoes to fill.

 

[Tunescribe]

My general belief on coaching is bad coaching can do more bad than good coaching can do good.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You and Urban Meyer would get along famously. You and Brian Daboll or Kevin O'Connell, though, probably not so much.

Urban Meyer on Jaguars' turnaround: They got a lot of different players in free agency

Urban Meyer isn't ready to concede that coaching is the reason the Jaguars improved so much in 2022.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

Also, an older piece that still rings true today ...

Coaching matters in NFL

Coaching can make a huge difference in the NFL -- just ask the Niners, writes Ross Tucker.

www.espn.com

You cited a a short blurb/opinion without any substance. Of course you need competent coaches and coaching matters, but the degree to which it matters is vastly overblown. My point was there are no metrics, and I pointed out that oddsmakers see coaching as virtually irrelevant. Nothing you've posted here has poked any holes in that.

 

[venecol]

I don't get you guys wanting to include AB on a hypothetical list of great Brady receivers. His best years were in Pittsburgh, he played one game for the Pats and he was a shadow of himself in Tampa. He did nothing to help further Tom Brady's career. I am all in on including Godwin or Evans, but c'mon. AB belongs on Roethlisburger's list, not Brady's.

I think the exercise was the best offensive Brady team that could go 20-0. You're correct on AB but check this out:

1. Tom ended up throwing 737 TDs to 97 different receivers;
2. Top 5: Gronk, Jules, Moss, Welker & Evans;
3. AB is #18 on the list in the equivalent of 1 season. He's also the only potential HOFer of the top 20 aside from Gronk, Moss* & maybe Evans.

It's too bad AB went loco during 2019 & 2021 or who knows what could've happened.

 

[patfanken]

I nominate Sam "Bam" Cunningham.

Jees, Sam should have been the obvious choice. Good catch.

 

[patfanken]

Man, you are a sad, angry little man. But you are really good at twisting the TRUTH to fit your narrative

Brady was practically begging for any sort of commitment from the Patriots and Belichick wasn't willing to give it to him. 'Stats are for losers' Bill forced Brady into an embarrassing one-year incentive laden contract prior to the 2018 season. This after Belichick had completely ****ed Brady in Super Bowl 52. Then after Brady led his 6th game-winning Super Bowl drive, Belichick still had the balls to offer Brady another incentive laden contract and Brady told him to FO!

So you would like us to believe that Brady was "begging" for an extension in 2018 at the same time he was selling his Brookline home? That Brady was "begging" to stay and play several more years in an area his wife was DESPERATE to leave? And none of the "poor tom brady sycophants has YET to give a solid reason, WHY Tom would want to stay after 2019. You know the year he kind of checked out at the end of the year.

When are you guys going to admit that Brady wanted to continue to play compete for Championships. That was NOT going to happen here for the next few years, for ALL the reasons I have put forth over and over again. Cap issues, FA's leaving, older players retiring, mediocre draft capital, etc, etc, etc.

I mean just think about it for just a second. Why would Tom want to play throwing to Edelman on his last legs, and.....pretty much no one else, when he could throw to Evans, Brown, Godwin and Gronk, a good running attack, and a great DL/LB group on defense, with decent DB's. And this was just ONE of his potential landing spots.

The 2nd dynasty was over. It was a great run that included at least 7 straight AFCCG's between 2012-2018, 4 superbowl appearances, and 3 wins. That's 7 years drafting in the high 20's and 30's every year. That's 7 years of having to pay more for successful players on YOUR team as well as FA's

No one has explained how Tom's $25MM cap hit would have affected roster when we were in cap hell in 2020 with a $1MM QB

Now we all know that Tom was STILL the GOAT. But if he GENUINELY wanted to stay, why WOULDN'T he want to stay and play year to year. Christ he was going to be 43 in 2020. What would you have done as GM. Is it wise to have a long term contract with a 43 year old player?!
If Tom had REALLY wanted to stay and had confidence in himself why wouldn't he go year to year and incentive deals, if it helped the Pats cap situation.

NOOOOOOO, Tom did what was best for TOM, and rightfully so. He had a small window for playing time left and he needed a better roster to compete for championships. TB provided that for him. I'm personally glad he wound up there. When the rumors were flying around on where he'd land, I always thought TB looked like the best fit.

And so, Brady had forced the Patriots to at least roll all of those asinine incentives into his salary and add the no franchise clause to the contract because he was completely sick of dealing his Bill's utter ********. Of course the 2019 season ended like **** because Bill's "boogeymen" defense couldn't stop Ryan Fitzpatrick on the final drive up-4 to preserve a playoff bye. Instead they lost that game and then got steamrolled by Derrick Henry in the wild card. Brady's Patriots career over.

Oh God! This old chestnut. You mean being unable to stop a miracle play at the end of the game where GRONK was the safety and couldn't catch Brandon Bolden. THAT was bill's fault? God what next. Bill is responsible for the Corona Virus.......AND the inflation. Blame Bill for the offensive coaching malpractice this season and I'll listen, but THE above is just whining, crybaby, "it's everyone's fault, but mine", mentality.

Belichick's biggest problem is his hubris. He thought it was all about him and his "system" (which I still can't identify if anyone wants to clear that up) so to him Brady was interchangeable with any top 15 quarterback in the league (as was reported). Belichick did not properly respect the value and impact of Brady. It was clearly evident as far back as 2014 (before he won 3 more SB's with Brady) and it was undeniable with the **** contracts he shoved down Brady's throat for the last few seasons in New England.

Well, Bill got his way. Brady left. And won a GD Super Bowl right away, which wasn't part of Bill's vision. Meanwhile Bill was gushing praise of a total washed loser like Cam Newton because Cam was a major Belichick kiss ass and yes man. Which was good for a dreadfully inept offense and the first losing season in New England since 2000 (what a coincidence!).

Two years later Bill's onto his third OC in three seasons and in the process he's completely derailed the development of his new "franchise quarterback." Nice. ****ing. Job.

OK, swearing is now allowed. About ****ing time! So listen you perpetual whining *******. Bill's "hubris" and system (and perhaps one day I WILL clear that up for you, but it isn't a one sentence answer, so I doubt you'd have the patience for it) provided Pats fans the most successful and sustained period of football success in NFL history, for TWENTY ****ing years! So get off your high horse and grab a little perspective.

2 of the last 3 years have sucked for Pats fans (though lions, jets, and a half dozen other franchises in the league would have been thrilled to be in the playoff hunt all 3 of those years). They haven't been what we've come to expect. Get over it. It's hard to beat ANYONE in the NFL and every win is a hard earned one. Just look at the difference in the Bengal KC game. There but a flag thrown on a play where another flag WASN'T called, goes an entire season. Good bounces, calls in your favor, and health equals football LUCK It decides a LOT of games.

I guarantee you the Pats will be a better team next year, BUT so will every other team. (and I'm sorry I called you a whiny *******. Now if we were having this discussion at a bar, I STILL would have called you a "whiney *******", but then I would have felt bad, and bought you a beer.)

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Oh God! This old chestnut. You mean being unable to stop a miracle play at the end of the game where GRONK was the safety and couldn't catch Brandon Bolden. THAT was bill's fault? God what next. Bill is responsible for the Corona Virus.......AND the inflation. Blame Bill for the offensive coaching malpractice this season and I'll listen, but THE above is just whining, crybaby, "it's everyone's fault, but mine", mentality.

************, you have to be kidding me dude. You‘re so delusional you’re actually absolving Bill Belichick for the Miami Miracle while referencing Gronkowski! Dude, who. decided. to. put. a tight. end. on. defense? Who? Who was the strategist who took the team’s star FS off the field in favor of a tight end? On a play where the QB wasn’t even capable of throwing a pass far enough for a hail mary!?

Now let’s hear it, Ken. Can’t blame Bill. It was the defensive coordinator. The buck stops with Bill…he is responsible for all of it when they win. But of course not for that one. It’s the other coaches. It’s Gronk.

Preparation. Detail. Organization. Strategy. Coaching.

Sub out McCourty for Gronkowski.

It wasn’t Bill’s fault!

Go talk about twisting the truth…that’s ALL you do.

 

[TB12TheGoat]

************, you have to be kidding me dude. You‘re so delusional you’re actually absolving Bill Belichick for the Miami Miracle while referencing Gronkowski! Dude, who. decided. to. put. a tight. end. on. defense? Who? Who was the strategist who took the team’s star FS off the field in favor of a tight end? On a play where the QB wasn’t even capable of throwing a pass far enough for a hail mary!?

Now let’s hear it, Ken. Can’t blame Bill. It was the defensive coordinator. The buck stops with Bill…he is responsible for all of it when they win. But of course not for that one. It’s the other coaches. It’s Gronk.

Preparation. Detail. Organization. Strategy. Coaching.

Sub out McCourty for Gronkowski.

It wasn’t Bill’s fault!

Go talk about twisting the truth…that’s ALL you do.

I knew something bad was going to happen when everyone lined up before the play and I saw Gronk out there for McCourty. there was no chance in hell Tannehill was getting the ball to the end zone on the fly

 

[Guts]

I guarantee you the Pats will be a better team next year, BUT so will every other team. (and I'm sorry I called you a whiny *******. Now if we were having this discussion at a bar, I STILL would have called you a "whiney *******", but then I would have felt bad, and bought you a beer.)

You can cuss me out all you want if beers on you, man

 

[TB12TheGoat]

Oh God! This old chestnut. You mean being unable to stop a miracle play at the end of the game where GRONK was the safety and couldn't catch Brandon Bolden. THAT was bill's fault? God what next. Bill is responsible for the Corona Virus.......AND the inflation. Blame Bill for the offensive coaching malpractice this season and I'll listen, but THE above is just whining, crybaby, "it's everyone's fault, but mine", mentality.

this one had me cracking up. whose fault was it then? did Gronk just tell McCourty to get off the field, I’m going out there?

 

[Guts]

Gronks ridiculous