Is our defense this good?

[All3Phases]

They determine your coverage if you can't cover anything over the middle.

They played heavy man until JJ got hurt last year, did the linebackers determine that? Same LB crew last I checked. Did you think the LBs were slow for the last 10 years in coverage? Because that didnt hinder them from playing amongst the heaviest man schemes in the league for that decade. They went from Gilmore/JC/JJ/McCourty/CHung (or some combo similar to that) who were all really good man defenders, to mostly guys whos strengths arent in Man

 

[Wozzy]

No question Gilmore was better but I think if Butler did not make a stink about wanting the new big deal as a RFA then I don't think Bill signs Gilmore. JMO.

That's not how it happened... he signed Gilmore in 2017, Butler pouted and refused to communicate with Gilmore which made it hard to integrate him into the defense... remember Gilly struggling and people calling him a bad signing at the time?

Then Butler became a malcontent because he wanted a deal similar to Gilmore and felt Bill gave Stefon his money. It culminated in Butler screwing over his teammates the week leading up to the Super Bowl and getting benched and him crying on the sidelines because he knew it was on him. This is why he's back with the Pats years later... he wouldn't come back if he thought the team screwed him over. He knew he was wrong.

Bill signed Gilmore because he knew it was money better spent than investing in Butler... because he was overrated. The same way BB let JC Jackson walk in free agency... because he is good, but not as good as everyone else thinks... not 83 million dollars good.

These are both UDFA's we're talking about... Gilmore is a superior athlete, the 10th overall pick in the draft... it's like saying your Honda Civic is as fast as that Ferrari over there because you put a muffler on it that's really loud or painted it a bright color.

 

[amfootball]

That's not how it happened... he signed Gilmore in 2017, Butler pouted and refused to communicate with Gilmore which made it hard to integrate him into the defense... remember Gilly struggling and people calling him a bad signing at the time?

Then Butler became a malcontent because he wanted a deal similar to Gilmore and felt Bill gave Stefon his money. It culminated in Butler screwing over his teammates the week leading up to the Super Bowl and getting benched and him crying on the sidelines because he knew it was on him. This is why he's back with the Pats years later... he wouldn't come back if he thought the team screwed him over. He knew he was wrong.

Bill signed Gilmore because he knew it was money better spent than investing in Butler... because he was overrated. The same way BB let JC Jackson walk in free agency... because he is good, but not as good as everyone else thinks... not 83 million dollars good.

These are both UDFA's we're talking about... Gilmore is a superior athlete, the 10th overall pick in the draft... it's like saying your Honda Civic is as fast as that Ferrari over there because you put a muffler on it that's really loud or painted it a bright color.

Perhaps I don't recall the timeline correctly but I believe Butler was RFA in 2016 and wanted to get paid. At one point Bill almost traded him to the Saints for a #1 but the deal fell through. Butler was adamant about wanting to get paid a year early. This is what led to Bill signing Gilmore in 2017 which really upset Butler as you say. My opinion is if Butler had not wanted to get paid a year early, Bill never signs Gilmore. Again, JMO. Most of us were really high on Butler back then.

 

[Wozzy]

Perhaps I don't recall the timeline correctly but I believe Butler was RFA in 2016 and wanted to get paid. At one point Bill almost traded him to the Saints for a #1 but the deal fell through. Butler was adamant about wanting to get paid a year early. This is what led to Bill signing Gilmore in 2017 which really upset Butler as you say. My opinion is if Butler had not wanted to get paid a year early, Bill never signs Gilmore. Again, JMO. Most of us were really high on Butler back then.

That was the offseason before 2017. Butler was a RFA in 2017, the Pats had a deal in place with New Orleans to trade him and they had a contract already worked out with Butler... the mistake was the Pats holding out for the Saints second first round pick instead of accepting a second. I criticized BB roundly for this afterwards... I mean for all the people calling me a BB apologist or some nonsense.

The Saints balked at giving up a first and paying Butler like a #1, so they drafted Marshon Lattimore with their first instead... really smart by them. Marshon became a far superior player than Butler ever was, they had him on a cost controlled rookie contract for 4 years, and Butler on a lesser team reverted to the player he always was... "good" at best. Or my entire point while arguing with guy above... Butler was never a superior athlete... never. We can literally see it in his Pro Day results.

Mills and Mitchell are similar to Butler and Logan Ryan... "good" not "great," and we won a Super Bowl with them starting. The defenses ability to be great like in 2016 will be more dependent on the defensive front than the backfield... football is won and lost in the trenches.

 

[amfootball]

That was the offseason before 2017. Butler was a RFA in 2017, the Pats had a deal in place with New Orleans to trade him and they had a contract already worked out with Butler... the mistake was the Pats holding out for the Saints second first round pick instead of accepting a second. I criticized BB roundly for this afterwards... I mean for all the people calling me a BB apologist or some nonsense.

The Saints balked at giving up a first and paying Butler like a #1, so they drafted Marshon Lattimore with their first instead... really smart by them. Marshon became a far superior player than Butler ever was, they had him on a cost controlled rookie contract for 4 years, and Butler on a lesser team reverted to the player he always was... "good" at best. Or my entire point while arguing with guy above...

It is interesting. Butler was our #1 for two seasons but Bill did not want to pay him as a #1. I agree about taking the Saints second. Should have just pulled the trigger since he was going to sign Gilmore anyways.

 

[Wozzy]

It is interesting. Butler was our #1 for two seasons but Bill did not want to pay him as a #1. I agree about taking the Saints second. Should have just pulled the trigger since he was going to sign Gilmore anyways.

In 2015 we were ranked 17th in passing yards allowed/20th in interceptions, and 12th/15th in 2016... "good," but we could do better.

Thus the signing of Gilmore...

 

[amfootball]

In 2015 we were ranked 17th in passing yards allowed/20th in interceptions, and 12th/15th in 2016... "good," but we could do better.

Thus the signing of Gilmore...

Not sure those rankings were due to Butler's play. He was pretty solid. Gilmore was an upgrade, no question.

 

[Kasmir]

Extrapolating this year's defense from the last two Buffalo games is foolhardy or trollish. By DVOA the Bills and the Pats were the two highest variance teams in the league. Buffalo had a healthy team and got hot. Pats had a wounded team and collapsed. That doesn't tell you much about this year's teams.

 

[All3Phases]

Extrapolating this year's defense from the last two Buffalo games is foolhardy or trollish. By DVOA the Bills and the Pats were the two highest variance teams in the league. Buffalo had a healthy team and got hot. Pats had a wounded team and collapsed. That doesn't tell you much about this year's teams.

Are you talking about Buffalo on Defense or offense being healthy?

 

[Wozzy]

Not sure those rankings were due to Butler's play. He was pretty solid. Gilmore was an upgrade, no question.

Pretty solid, "good" is how I described both Butler and Logan Ryan's level of play... if the defensive front is great in 2022 we could get similar production out of Mills and Mitchell... even if neither wins a popularity pro bowl vote.

 

[All3Phases]

Pretty solid, "good" is how I described both Butler and Logan Ryan's level of play... if the defensive front is great in 2022 we could get similar production out of Mills and Mitchell... even if neither wins a popularity pro bowl vote.

So those rankings solely reflect on Butlers year? in your opinion? If not, then what was the purpose of them?

Also you keep saying pro bowl, nobody mentioned a pro bowl

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

2001-04 they had law/asante at the end. 14 they had Revis, 16 butler 18 Gilmore. All of which were all pro caliber players.

Asante in 04 was definitely not pro bowl caliber. I think he was a solid outside cb that season and improved year to year until he became a stud in 06, but he was not a GREAT corner yet in 04, and the rest of our cb’s that year were average at best.

My optimistic take is this defense can be successful with its deeper set of cbs if we get strong play up front. We need judon and barmore to wreak havoc like the first 3/4 of last year. If judon disappears again and nobody else steps up at edge then we could be in trouble. It hurts losing jcj but if 2 or 3 of the offseason cb additions work out it will help alot not having that obvious weak link (s).

 

[All3Phases]

Asante in 04 was definitely not pro bowl caliber. I think he was a solid outside cb that season and improved year to year until he became a stud in 06, but he was not a GREAT corner yet in 04, and the rest of our cb’s that year were average at best.

My optimistic take is this defense can be successful with its deeper set of cbs if we get strong play up front. We need judon and barmore to wreak havoc like the first 3/4 of last year. If judon disappears again and nobody else steps up at edge then we could be in trouble. It hurts losing jcj but if 2 or 3 of the offseason cb additions work out it will help alot not having that obvious weak link (s).

Agree, right now theyre relying on 2 guys to basically be unblockable. Barmore looks like he will be a great player for sure, let see how good he will get.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Asante in 04 was definitely not pro bowl caliber. I think he was a solid outside cb that season and improved year to year until he became a stud in 06, but he was not a GREAT corner yet in 04, and the rest of our cb’s that year were average at best.

I’m sure you meant this, but he wasn’t a starter until 2005 when Law left and Duane Starks was shown the bench.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I’m sure you meant this, but he wasn’t a starter until 2005 when Law left and Duane Starks was a disaster.

Asante? He started in 04 too over the 2nd half after Law and Poole went down. The cb set for half the regular season and playoffs was he, randall gay, troy brown , earthwind moreland with some others sprinkled in from what I remember

 

[TheRainMaker]

Asante? He started in 04 too over the 2nd half after Law and Poole went down. The cb set was he, randall gay, troy brown , earthwind moreland with some others sprinkled in from what I remember

Oh okay, I was going by depth chart and not due to injuries.

 

[All3Phases]

In 2015 we were ranked 17th in passing yards allowed/20th in interceptions, and 12th/15th in 2016... "good," but we could do better.

Thus the signing of Gilmore...

2014 they were 17th in PYA and 12th in INT, 2018 22nd in PYA. Not sure which correlation you were trying to make, but hoping it wasnt with the team stats to butler. In that case, Revis and Gilmore were just pretty good in their super bowl years

 

[Wozzy]

2014 they were 17th in PYA and 12th in INT, 2018 22nd in PYA. Not sure which correlation you were trying to make, but hoping it wasnt with the team stats to butler. In that case, Revis and Gilmore were just pretty good in their super bowl years

Gilmore is better than Butler was my point, they paid one CB... the right one.

BB made his opinion known, it matched my assessment here... nothing more to discuss.

I thought you'd agree to disagree if I stopped responding to you directly... and I did?

So stop inundating me with the same repetitive nonsense. I made my opinion known, you disagree... drop it.

 

[All3Phases]

Gilmore is better than Butler was my point, they paid one CB... the right one.

BB made his opinion known, it matched my assessment here... nothing more to discuss.

I thought you agree to disagree if I stopped responding to you directly... and I did?

So stop inundating me with the same repetitive nonsense. I made my opinion known, you disagree... drop it.

The bold not one person argued. But I easily pointed out your statistics dont really help your argument

 

[Wozzy]

The bold not one person argued. But I easily pointed out your statistics dont really help your argument

You didn't understand a thing... stop trying.

I'm trying to save the board from unnecessary spamming and back and forth.

I made my opinion known, you disagree... drop it.