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Cap Hell

The cap is like the economy. As long as your GDP is rising each year, you can keep borrowing from the future. You only get into real trouble if there's a big contraction.

Pats made some big moves last offseason to refill their roster and added a couple of players in Henry and Judon (and maybe Jonnu) who would never have hit the open market in a normal year. I think people forget how bad that roster was in 2020 because Bill somehow got 7 wins out of it. It was a 4 win roster for any other coach.

The problem is we are now paying slightly now for the splurge. You can't hit on everyone but given they were competing against themselves in many cases, they could have played harder ball on a few of the contracts. We could do what others have done - restructure everyone and sign players with a couple of dead cap years to minimise year one cap hits. That doesn't seem like Bill's style and I also think RKK is reluctant to spend this offseason. They don't even seem to be in on mid tier guys - $6-8m a year types.

What that means is anyone's guess. Does Bill think they can compete this year? Is this actually a really clever game where we are just about to hoover up some valuable guys for cheap? Is this a recognition that we need to hit through the draft to get better in the long run so he's trying to max comps picks for next year. Or is it simply trying not to repeat mistakes and sign average players to inflated contracts?

Might be all of those.
 
They don't have a QB. It's a bit easier when you don't have a QB to pay.
I get that, but Taysom Hill is on a 10/yr contract so it’s not nothing. And going from 60 million over the the cap to 25 million under shows how the cap can be manipulated.
 
I get that, but Taysom Hill is on a 10/yr contract so it’s not nothing. And going from 60 million over the the cap to 25 million under shows how the cap can be manipulated.
Manipulated based on the parameters of the cap, sure, but there are still consequences:

Saints Cap liabilities:
2023 $239,281,454
2024 $167,713,340
2025 $103,763,114
2026 $49,647,844
Total 560,405,752

For reference the Pats only have $194,091,347 of cap liabilities for the same period.

The Saints have been borrowing at a faster clip than the cap has been increasing and have severely limited what they can do over the next few years.
 
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Manipulated based on the parameters of the cap, sure, but there are still consequences:

Saints Cap liabilities:
2023 $239,281,454
2024 $167,713,340
2025 $103,763,114
2026 $49,647,844
Total 560,405,752

For reference the Pats only have $194,091,347 of cap liabilities for the same period.

The Saints have been borrowing at a faster clip than the cap has been increasing and have severely limited what they can do over the next few years.
Great, the Pats win the fiscally responsible trophy.
 
2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2018 and 2019 rosters were pretty bad.
And yet.....

2006: A call and/or a catch away from beating Colts.
2010: Weren't they 14-2 with best offense?
2011: Possible Welker catch away from SB win
2013: AFC title game.
2018: SB win
2019: 12-4.

I guess they "re-loaded" in some years. But they still won the division every year.
 
Manipulated based on the parameters of the cap, sure, but there are still consequences:

Saints Cap liabilities:
2023 $239,281,454
2024 $167,713,340
2025 $103,763,114
2026 $49,647,844
Total 560,405,752

For reference the Pats only have $194,091,347 of cap liabilities for the same period.

The Saints have been borrowing at a faster clip than the cap has been increasing and have severely limited what they can do over the next few years.
Yep.

Snd I'll add....

NE is reloading. But they are doing so after 3 SB wins (4 trips) in a 6 year span.

NO is kicking the can down the road after having the most wins in a 5 year stretch without making a SB. Bad calls or freak plays or not. That franchise totally underachieved with a HOF QB and potential HOF coach.
 
Yep.

Snd I'll add....

NE is reloading. But they are doing so after 3 SB wins (4 trips) in a 6 year span.

NO is kicking the can down the road after having the most wins in a 5 year stretch without making a SB. Bad calls or freak plays or not. That franchise totally underachieved with a HOF QB and potential HOF coach.
I would just add to this that from 2014-2016 when the Patriots were winning two rings, the Saints were going 7-9, 7-9 and 7-9.

The cap is not some insurmountable obstacle, but it also has to be contended with. The Patriots way doesn't guarantee a championship every season, but it allows them to contend every season. There are no peaks and valleys, no down years where they are winning 4-8 games for a couple years in a row.

And no, before some Brady honk says it, this wasn't solely due to the QB. This was due to the teams willingness to pay but unwillingness to overpay.
 
Great, the Pats win the fiscally responsible trophy.
Yeah but where do you think we're going this year? Are we a legit SB contender? Would one or two bigger moves this past week have made us a legit SB contender? If not, and we're building for 2023, then being undisciplined about our moves this year will hurt our 2023 chances, and put us closer to the cap hell that the Saints are in.

And is it possible that our needs this offseason can still be met at a better price via the draft, remaining FA's, cuts, etc.?

Our problems are not the result of FA, but from several consecutive years of draft mistakes pre-2021. If we have another good draft this year then we'll have started to right the ship.
 
You guys must not have watched last offseason.

Here's this year's deal.

Last year we spent a lot. Everybody called it a spending spree. It wasn't just a spending spree by our standards, it was a spending spree by anybody's. We got 25 guys or something, but there were a few notable beneficiaries, including the tight ends, one of whom was worth it, the other of whom isn't... yet.

A lot of that $$$$ was guaranteed, meaning cutting doesn't help, you're committed to paying that amount. You can sell the contract but it's hard to do, because if you want out if it, it's not likely somebody else wants in on it. So why did we do that? Since we're sooooo cheap?

Per some other guy earlier on, because last year was a one time significant CUT in the cap, to be followed by big raises in cap this year and the next. This is expected to cause significant capflation, which is handy, because the way real inflation is going you'll need league minimum just to get a baked potato for dinner every night. I kid. But not much.

Anyhoo, we spent 2021 cap dollars which was the good kind to spend, but that didn't leave us terribly cap flush this year. So if you and your buddies are yackin at the bah about "F***in Kraft that cheap bastid" well, who cares, it ain't hurtin' nobody, unless of course somebody contradicts you and you have to have a go at him after 7 beers and end up punching the wooden indian at the entrance of Cheers or something. Agree that 2023 might be a splashy year, but we'll see. don't forget that, whether you like the results or not, 2021 was a splashy year.
Did you even bother to read what I posted?
 
The rules are the same for every team. If some teams choose not to take advantage of the cap rule flexibilities it's on them. I like it this way. This has been a crazy offseason. We've got a bunch of teams going all in that hopefully makes it for a more exciting football season. Then later, it'll be fun to watch some of them crash and burn. I think there was more parity this past season than I can remember. It should continue.
It was parity among the best teams, with an entire second class beneath them.
 
The idea that 2021 cap dollars would buy a lot didn’t pan out did it? Judon is a great signing, but they’ve signed guys like him before. And Hunter Henry? I like him, but it’s not like their master plan to spend in 2021 allowed them to get a pro bowl TE. the reality is that while the Pats had a lot of $ to spend in 2021, other teams were finding ways to keep their free agents and the Pats did not have their pick of a great free agent crop of players. They also spent a lot of those dollars signing their own free agents. I think they did pretty well last year and some signings will be better this year, but its not like the Pat’s we’re so much smarter than the rest of the league that they had the market to themselves last year.

And this year, while the Pats are standing pat multiple top AFC teams are spending to get better. Other teams are spending now to get better now because the cap is going up by a lot in ‘23 and ‘24. The Pats were always smarter than all those other teams that were fiscally imprudent, but that was when their QB was TB. We’ll see how that works now.
I was responding to your assertion that the reason the Pats spent in '21 was that everybody was gone or going to be gone anyway. I think that it's almost always the case that we tend to set up two poles so we can fight. I think it would be stupid to assert that the timing of all these contracts all came due with some master plan that 2021 would be the down cap year, but it was a knowable strategy in July 2020. Cardboard cutouts were not paying a lot to get in, and in July of 2020 the CBA reflecting this fact was signed. (2021 would have a min. cap of 175M, up from an earlier possible min. cap of 165 M... compared with 198M for 2020.)
(It ended up at 182M)

It's 208M in 2022.

So you could look for articles on the steps that the Pats took to have a ton of cap room to start 2021 free agency; if your contention is that things just worked out coincidentally with the Pats having a ton of cap room during a black swan-like deflation event, a drop of 16M per club vs. a raise of at least 10M per club in normal times.... okay, I await your findings.

I don't think that's correct. I think that the Pats explicitly planned to spend in the 2021 off-season. I think other teams spent to different extents as well. I think a lot of teams were like "wait what?" once the dust settled.

Now you want to argue whether it panned out, and you feel strongly on both sides of that.

They spent a lot when the model for spending was a good one. Sometimes they got a little happy with the checkbook when they were hell bent to get at least one good TE, for example (that 12.5M APY money for BOTH TEs makes me think they graded their upside the same.)

So let's establish one axis, useless on its own, "Money Spent, 2021 off-season."

Let's prep the ground with a reductio ad absurdum. Bill B's magic 8 ball told him before he signed any contract that would be up in 2021 that it would be a year of cap deflation, even if that contract was signed 4 years ago.

Of course this is not true, but knowing the deflationary nature of 2021 cap dollars, wouldn't that be a cool superpower to have?

Now let's look at the who complaint that we're crediting NE with strategy when it's really "just because" contracts were up in 2021. What they did was not move on things they could otherwise move on from 2020 to 2021.

How many contracts did that affect, out of that huge 2021 offseason spend? Hunt it down, if your iconoclastic assertion is important to you... that the Patriots just looked like they thought it through, by coincidence.

Now, to the axis, "Money Spent"

In another reductio ad absdurdum, let's hold constant how well the Pats guessed on the future value that they paid for in 2021 (including the re-upped contracts which were also a big part of "the spree".) Let's say anyone who did their spending in 2021 -- all talent evaluation held constant -- were smart and well prepared, and those who did not were stupid and ill-prepared.

The Pats were smarter and more prepared than all the teams that went into 2021 FA with less money, and they were smarter and more prepared than all the teams that just didn't spend 2021 dollars to the same extent. Teams that spent bigger in 2021 were better smarter and better prepared if judged only on this axis. Who spent more in contracts in 2021?

Now, this is just an ingredient in the "How'd we do" recipe. That's the prob. w/a reductio ad absurdum. But we do know that we made that call correctly, on only the cap inflation point.

The last argument, on which you are firmly on both sides, is how we did in the 2021 spending.

I'm right there with you, on both sides of that one. Complaining about Hunter Henry is a bit of a reach... the go-to red-zone target. Complaining about Jonnu is spot on, if he stays where he is now in terms of value (and however he performs in the next 3 years has to really pan out to also make up for that first year.) He's a C-grade TE being paid like an A. But I wonder how 12.5M APY will look in a couple of years.

You might complain "But that's always the case!!!" Um, not in 2021. That is the point. A 16M dip in cap vs the usual 10M or more increase. That's a swing of $26M on a cap of 182M. Apply that dip to the whole market and think whether you might go home-shopping if home values were down 14% and you had a guarantee that they would increase the next 4 years. F*** I would and I hate real estate. Or grocery shopping or car shopping or whatever. QED

Agholar's a WR3 being paid like a low 1, but we can get out of that after this year if he can't show us something. Judon's an A find. Bourne was an A especially at his price (3 years, 15m). The market was hotter for Godchaux, 2 years, $16m (8M APY). People here hate him. Henry Anderson got injured, cost 11M for 2 years, who knows if he's good.

So 3 players were $141 million of the "Spending Spree," the TEs plus Judon. Judging by 1 year only. Bourne was a surprise overperformer, Agholar was a surprise underperformer. Henry was worth it, Smith was not, Judon was.

The others... you like 4 years of Deatrich Wise for 22m? Jalen Mills at 6M APY for 4 years? Guys want to compare every player at every position to the best or at least the elite tier. I think those types of signings are decent spends, once again, because they are about what you're paying for, and that spend will look even lower in short order.

Do we get cheap when our UDFA find gets 17M APY from the Chargers, even though it seemed like he'd cost 20M? Yeah maybe. Did we overspend in the 2021 offseason? You have to cherry pick to conclude that -- some hits, some misses. I honestly don't think we believe that you buy that expensive corner. You get the best corner you can at a more modest price point. There's been a long line of Corners marching out of here sometimes in a huff to prove that point.

But I think there's strategy in what we did in 2021, and I think on balance we made decent bets. (And when everything you do is a "decent bet" or "an okay game plan" or whatever, granted, you can't excel. Here's hoping for the next step up in 22)
 
Did you even bother to read what I posted?
If I quoted you in my response, you can be sure of it, because I would be responding to you. Are you claiming I did that? If so do me the honor of telling me what you're in high dudgeon about.

If not, you're just another guy on here. If I made the same point as you, or made an opposing point, you're welcome to respond.
 
If I quoted you in my response, you can be sure of it, because I would be responding to you. Are you claiming I did that? If so do me the honor of telling me what you're in high dudgeon about.

If not, you're just another guy on here. If I made the same point as you, or made an opposing point, you're welcome to respond.
I'm responding to the post in which you quoted me...and yes, we're pretty much in agreement. Just curious why you quoted me, then apparently included me with "you guys."

And I'm not in high dudgeon, lol, just a wee bit confused.
 
It was parity among the best teams, with an entire second class beneath them.
On the very last week there were 6+ teams vying for a playoff spot. There were several teams that were better teams that missed the playoffs. The number of upsets last season was I believe a record. There will always be a list of consistent best teams, but Bengals isn't one of them yet they almost won the SB.

I expect even stronger competition this season, more upsets, and better games. Chances are there's a new SB winner that's different from the previous four. That's parity.
 
That is a perception - not reality.

They pay plenty of players.

They are fiscally disciplined and don't overpay based on projections
As you point out, it has nothing to do with being cheap, they spend to the cap, they just aren't kicking the can down the road like other teams who push debt into the future with future voidable years and so forth. Not only do the Patriots not do that, they even took a year (the Cam year) to balance their books.

The Patriots are like the financially conservative married professor who pays his credit card off every month, lives in a modest 1900 sq ft house that is now paid off (yea!), and whose only debt is a brand new car for the wife (with a 4 year loan). Spending to the "cap" on the wife via new car and plenty of travel, but without going into a bunch of debt or pushing a bunch of debt into the future.

Teams like New Orleans, Kansas City, and now the Browns are the married couple who when business was going good bought 3 beach condos, a swimming pool for their house, and a boat (many of the purchases with only the minimum down payment), leading to them having to refinance their house to back out the maximum amount of cash, had to sell the boat and some of the condos, and now are constantly opening new 15 month without interest credit cards and transferring their sizable, constantly increasing credit card debt to newer and newer credit cards. They are good people and have a great life, they just choose to push debt into the future to enjoy that life while they have Drew Brees or Patrick Mahomes (to bring the analogy back home to NFL Team spending philosophies).

.....By the way, I'm almost positive that my brother in law's family does not read PatsFans.com posts, fortunately for me.
 
Pats aren't in cap hell but they're constrained by the bad contracts they gave out last year to jags like jonnu smith, algohor, and godcheaux. They were frequently bidding against themselves as no one else had any money. No matter. Top of the market!

Anyway belichick went all out and now he's constrained. And this is with a qb on his rookie deal, imagine some teams have 20m or so eaten by the qb! Yet they somehow field competitive or even good teams. We have 20m in extra money and still field mediocrity.

It all comes back to the draft. Complete inabity to find players in the draft (where they are very cheap) means constant trips to the free agency well. And insult to injury, belichick signs jags to huge guaranteed (uncutable) contracts! It's a prescription for mediocrity.

But he's "executive of the year". Sure, according to whom the agents who extracted top dollar out of him?
 
Pats aren't in cap hell but they're constrained by the bad contracts they gave out last year to jags like jonnu smith, algohor, and godcheaux.

Anyway belichick went all out and now he's constrained. And this is with a qb on his rookie deal, imagine some teams have 20m or so eaten by the qb! Yet they somehow field competitive or even good teams. We have 20m in extra money and still field mediocrity.
Patriots aren't constrained at all. They could have easily signed many of their targets. There weren't outlandish contracts for many of them.

The question is why aren't they doing it?

1. Does Bill believe that w/ middle of the road FAs and his projected draft hits from his big board, that Mac has enough to carry the team? or

2. Does Bill believe the team is too far removed from a SB run regardless of the talent brought in so better to save bullets for next season's run?

We don't know the answer.

Disclaimer: yes I know it's only the 1st week of FAcy but there's a clear pattern that has developed in this short time plus rumors from multiple sources about the Pats not wanting to spend this offseason.
 
Patriots aren't constrained at all. They could have easily signed many of their targets. There weren't outlandish contracts for many of them.

The question is why aren't they doing it?

1. Does Bill believe that w/ middle of the road FAs and his projected draft hits from his big board, that Mac has enough to carry the team? or

2. Does Bill believe the team is too far removed from a SB run regardless of the talent brought in so better to save bullets for next season's run?

We don't know the answer.

Disclaimer: yes I know it's only the 1st week of FAcy but there's a clear pattern that has developed in this short time plus rumors from multiple sources about the Pats not wanting to spend this offseason.
They really didn't seem to want to push money forward. They'll have a ton of $$$ the next couple of years and will have most of the question marks answered, plus, there will be lots of teams with money pushed forward that will be releasing players, or having players unhappy on "low salaries" because they already were paid.

I don't think the Pats are tanking this year, but it seems like they're trying to get the red-shirted/under-performing players to step up and let it fly.
 
Patriots aren't constrained at all. They could have easily signed many of their targets. There weren't outlandish contracts for many of them.

The question is why aren't they doing it?

1. Does Bill believe that w/ middle of the road FAs and his projected draft hits from his big board, that Mac has enough to carry the team? or

2. Does Bill believe the team is too far removed from a SB run regardless of the talent brought in so better to save bullets for next season's run?

We don't know the answer.

Disclaimer: yes I know it's only the 1st week of FAcy but there's a clear pattern that has developed in this short time plus rumors from multiple sources about the Pats not wanting to spend this offseason.
I'd wager that Bill wants to see if some of the younger depth players can play, while being somewhat conservative with FA's and trades unless the right deal comes along. This will allow the Pats to be ultra agressive in free agency next year, while keeping the youngsters that show potential this year. Bonus points if they get lucky enough to win the mini lottery and somehow win the SB...
 
I'd wager that Bill wants to see if some of the younger depth players can play, while being somewhat conservative with FA's and trades unless the right deal comes along. This will allow the Pats to be ultra agressive in free agency next year, while keeping the youngsters that show potential this year. Bonus points if they get lucky enough to win the mini lottery and somehow win the SB...
If they finish this year in the middle, which seems likely - maybe a playoff spot, maybe not - and they act like this NEXT year, then I'll join in the chorus here thinking that the new cap manipulations are probably necessary.

I don't think they'll do that at all, however. They're holding their powder and not pushing money ahead for a reason (has to be a reason, right? Right!?).
 
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