NFL News 2021 NFL Free Agency/Trade News & Discussion: March Edition

[Hyped]

How can Berrios be a miss, if he caught on? What difference does it make which team it is, if the drafting ability is what's being analyzed?

6-16 isn't THAT much different than the numbers for the vaunted Steelers, who from what I read here, can pick all pro WR's with one hand tied behind and blindfolded. And they use higher draft picks on average.

Berrios hasn't exactly caught on yet...I decided to split the difference between him and Slater who isn't a WR (was drafted as a safety).

Berrios has been the Jets PR....but not exactly a starting wideout...he's listed as WR#4 and been considered a "Swiss Army Knife" kind of player for the Jets. But yeah, the Pats probably shouldn't have given up on him....although I am happy with Olszewski...

Either way....draft record is poor for WR's, but need to take into account that we never drafted a WR higher than #32...and the jury isn't out on Harry just yet....

 

[Hyped]

Martavius Bryant, Santonio Holmes, Plexico Burress, Antonio Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, Chase Claypool, Diontae Johnson, Mike Wallace, JuJu Smith, Markus Wheaton.

All those guys matched or greatly excelled everyone the pats ever drafted.

Bryant (4th), Holmes (1.25), Burres (1.08), Brown (6th), Sanders (3rd), Claypool (2nd), Johnson (3rd), Wallace (3rd), Smith-Schuster (2nd), and Wheaton (3rd).

Summary: Only Brown was a hit in the 6th. Bryant flamed out.....but showed something. The rest? All in the top 3 rounds including two drafted higher than N'Keal Harry....and those two both had SB winning catches.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

How can Berrios be a miss, if he caught on? What difference does it make which team it is, if the drafting ability is what's being analyzed?

6-16 isn't THAT much different than the numbers for the vaunted Steelers, who from what I read here, can pick all pro WR's with one hand tied behind and blindfolded. And they use higher draft picks on average.

It is different if youre including guys like berrios, mitchell, and bethel in that 6. Its not near the same as hitting on Antonio, plaxico, juju, etc etc. i mean juju’s 2018 recieving stats alone match those 3 careers combined. i still consider myself on team bb and appreciate him as a gm more than most , but our wr drafting specifically is not on Pittsburghs level

 

[upstater1]

It is different if youre including guys like berrios, mitchell, and bethel in that 6. Its not near the same as hitting on Antonio, plaxico, juju, etc etc. i mean juju’s 2018 recieving stats alone match those 3 careers combined. i still consider myself on team bb and appreciate him as a gm more than most , but our wr drafting specifically is not on Pittsburghs level

I have the Patriots as 4-14 because I dont consider the special teams guys and I'm not counting Barrios. He would be 5 of 16 if I did.

The Steelers expend 2x as many picks but their hit % is just a little above, not that much greater.

If you guys want to see a horror show, check out BBs drafting of DBs. Belichick is right about at the league average for drafting WRs, but for DBs he is horrific.

 

[gobesmug]

You don't think any of that is game system and QB? Seriously?

Ben runs around to extend plays, which makes for flashier receiver plays downfield, while Brady is dinking and dunking to SB championships in a system that favored Welker, Eldeman, Amendola, TEs, etc.

Wow, so an actual pats fan believes the system garbage narrative.

The offense always played to strength of it's players. Brady was the most accurate deep passer this past season because he had weapons that excelled it.

The sink and dunk was a result of not having true deep threats, but Brady still managed to hit deep throws.

So no, your narrative is wrong. Every* starting We that left the Patriots, with Brady under center, their stats went down, not up.

*Funny enough Brandon LeFell bounced back with the Bengals and exceeded his last year stats with the pats, but he still had his best season with Brady.

Emmanuel Sanders, Santonio Holmes, Plexico Burress, Antonio Brown, and Mike Wallace have all had success outside of Pittsburgh.

Martavis Bryant flamed out due to substance abuse and Markus Wheaton wasn't the same after injuries. All others I listed are still on the Steelers so it remains to be seen.

 

[gobesmug]

Bryant (4th), Holmes (1.25), Burres (1.08), Brown (6th), Sanders (3rd), Claypool (2nd), Johnson (3rd), Wallace (3rd), Smith-Schuster (2nd), and Wheaton (3rd).

Summary: Only Brown was a hit in the 6th. Bryant flamed out.....but showed something. The rest? All in the top 3 rounds including two drafted higher than N'Keal Harry....and those two both had SB winning catches.

What's your point?

Harry 1st, Dobson 2nd, Bethel Johnson 2nd and Chad Jackson 2nd all busts. If your point is the Steelers have great success in the fist 3 rounds while the pats suck I fully agree and so does their track record.

 

[Hyped]

I have the Patriots as 4-14 because I dont consider the special teams guys and I'm not counting Barrios. He would be 5 of 16 if I did.

The Steelers expend 2x as many picks but their hit % is just a little above, not that much greater.

If you guys want to see a horror show, check out BBs drafting of DBs. Belichick is right about at the league average for drafting WRs, but for DBs he is horrific.

For fun, I complied a list of DB's drafted the last 20 years of the BB era:

JoeJuan Williams (2nd)
Ken Webster (7th)
Duke Dawnson (2nd)
Keion Crossen (7th)
Cyrus Jones (1st)
Darryl Roberts (7th)
Jemea Thomas (6th, listed as DB)
Logan Ryan (3rd, listed as DB)
Duron Harmon (3rd, listed as DB)
Tavon Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Nate Ebner (6th, listed as DB)
Alfonzo Dennard (7th, listed as DB)
Ras-I Downling (2nd)
Malcolm Williams (7th, listed as DB)
Devin McCourty (1st, listed as DB)
Patrick Chung (2nd, listed as DB)
Darius Butler (2nd)
Terrence Wheatley (2nd, listed as DB)
Jonathan Wilhite (4th, listed as DB)
Brandon Meriweather (1st, listed as DB)
Mike Richardson (6th, listed as DB)
Willie Andrews (7th, listed as DB)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
James Sanders (4th, listed as DB)
Guss Scott (3rd, listed as DB)
Dexter Reis (4th, listed as DB)
Christian Morton (7th, listed as DB)
Eugene Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Asante Samuel (4th)
Brock Williams (2nd)
Leonard Myers (6th)
Antwan Harris (6th, listed as DB...and drafted before Brady, LOL)

The guys in BOLD were good, had one good season or so (Wilhite, Sanders, Wilson), played better elsewhere, played well at another position, or made a huge play in the playoffs (Harris), and/or the jury is still out for (JWill).

 

[long distance]

the vaunted Steelers, who from what I read here, can pick all pro WR's with one hand tied behind and blindfolded

i knew there was something fishy going on there!

Then again BB lets his dog do the picks..

 

[RobertWeathers]

Berrios hasn't exactly caught on yet...I decided to split the difference between him and Slater who isn't a WR (was drafted as a safety).

Berrios has been the Jets PR....but not exactly a starting wideout...he's listed as WR#4 and been considered a "Swiss Army Knife" kind of player for the Jets. But yeah, the Pats probably shouldn't have given up on him....although I am happy with Olszewski...

Either way....draft record is poor for WR's, but need to take into account that we never drafted a WR higher than #32...and the jury isn't out on Harry just yet....

They should not have given up on Berrios. Plus he was my binkie.

He had 37 catches for almost 400yds and 3TDs last year. In 2019 he was #2 in PR ave.

Still cant believe Gunner had a 17yds return ave. last year. Sheesh.

 

[Hyped]

What's your point?

Harry 1st, Dobson 2nd, Bethel Johnson 2nd and Chad Jackson 2nd all busts. If your point is the Steelers have great success in the fist 3 rounds while the pats suck I fully agree and so does their track record.

My point is if BB had two high first round picks....we would almost certainly have had elite receivers the last 20 years from the draft. His track record is bad in round 3...but all those picks were in the #95-#100 range. 2nd round was just OK with Branch...but the Steelers only hit on one more guy in the 2nd than we did...and 2 more in the 1st.

Either way....we need to draft WR's better! So, let's just agree to disagee on whether BB could have performed better with better draft picks.

 

[jah]

For fun, I complied a list of DB's drafted the last 20 years of the BB era:

JoeJuan Williams (2nd)
Ken Webster (7th)
Duke Dawnson (2nd)
Keion Crossen (7th)
Cyrus Jones (1st)
Darryl Roberts (7th)
Jemea Thomas (6th, listed as DB)
Logan Ryan (3rd, listed as DB)
Duron Harmon (3rd, listed as DB)
Tavon Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Nate Ebner (6th, listed as DB)
Alfonzo Dennard (7th, listed as DB)
Ras-I Downling (2nd)
Malcolm Williams (7th, listed as DB)
Devin McCourty (1st, listed as DB)
Patrick Chung (2nd, listed as DB)
Darius Butler (2nd)
Terrence Wheatley (2nd, listed as DB)
Jonathan Wilhite (4th, listed as DB)
Brandon Meriweather (1st, listed as DB)
Mike Richardson (6th, listed as DB)
Willie Andrews (7th, listed as DB)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
James Sanders (4th, listed as DB)
Guss Scott (3rd, listed as DB)
Dexter Reis (4th, listed as DB)
Christian Morton (7th, listed as DB)
Eugene Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Asante Samuel (4th)
Brock Williams (2nd)
Leonard Myers (6th)
Antwan Harris (6th, listed as DB...and drafted before Brady, LOL)

The guys in BOLD were good, had one good season or so (Wilhite, Sanders, Wilson), played better elsewhere, played well at another position, or made a huge play in the playoffs (Harris), and/or the jury is still out for (JWill).

Tavon Wilson is still in the league because of his ST play and Darius Butler was a solid contributor in Indy for some time.

 

[RobertWeathers]

For fun, I complied a list of DB's drafted the last 20 years of the BB era:

JoeJuan Williams (2nd)
Ken Webster (7th)
Duke Dawnson (2nd)
Keion Crossen (7th)
Cyrus Jones (1st)
Darryl Roberts (7th)
Jemea Thomas (6th, listed as DB)
Logan Ryan (3rd, listed as DB)
Duron Harmon (3rd, listed as DB)
Tavon Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Nate Ebner (6th, listed as DB)
Alfonzo Dennard (7th, listed as DB)
Ras-I Downling (2nd)
Malcolm Williams (7th, listed as DB)
Devin McCourty (1st, listed as DB)
Patrick Chung (2nd, listed as DB)
Darius Butler (2nd)
Terrence Wheatley (2nd, listed as DB)
Jonathan Wilhite (4th, listed as DB)
Brandon Meriweather (1st, listed as DB)
Mike Richardson (6th, listed as DB)
Willie Andrews (7th, listed as DB)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
James Sanders (4th, listed as DB)
Guss Scott (3rd, listed as DB)
Dexter Reis (4th, listed as DB)
Christian Morton (7th, listed as DB)
Eugene Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Asante Samuel (4th)
Brock Williams (2nd)
Leonard Myers (6th)
Antwan Harris (6th, listed as DB...and drafted before Brady, LOL)

The guys in BOLD were good, had one good season or so (Wilhite, Sanders, Wilson), played better elsewhere, played well at another position, or made a huge play in the playoffs (Harris), and/or the jury is still out for (JWill).

Wilson has had a 10yr career.
Dennard had a couple of good years here.
Butler was ok 1 year here but excellent in Indy.
Andrews was an excellent STer until he started selling drugs

So 18 out of 32 picks were productive.

Better with UFAs

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

 

[50-yard-line]

Wow, so an actual pats fan believes the system garbage narrative.

The offense always played to strength of it's players. Brady was the most accurate deep passer this past season because he had weapons that excelled it.

The sink and dunk was a result of not having true deep threats, but Brady still managed to hit deep throws.

So no, your narrative is wrong. Every* starting We that left the Patriots, with Brady under center, their stats went down, not up.

*Funny enough Brandon LeFell bounced back with the Bengals and exceeded his last year stats with the pats, but he still had his best season with Brady.

Emmanuel Sanders, Santonio Holmes, Plexico Burress, Antonio Brown, and Mike Wallace have all had success outside of Pittsburgh.

Martavis Bryant flamed out due to substance abuse and Markus Wheaton wasn't the same after injuries. All others I listed are still on the Steelers so it remains to be seen.

Of course the offensive system/style a team plays matters to WRs. How could it not? Brady was precision and timing...Ben is street ball, and really good at it. That's not a knock on Brady, quite the opposite, nor any kind of pejorative. How can you argue that when you have a team that built its offense on TEs and slot guys?

Santonio Holmes was a first-round pick (25th), who had a decent career, but a middling one after being traded to the Jets.

Plexico Burress was the #8 pick, who had a good career, not a great one.

Edelman has had a better career than Holmes and isn't far off Burress. Gronkowski has had a better career than either, and Hernandez wasn't far off track to exceed either before he lost his mind. Wes Welker had a better career than any of them - yeah, BB didn't draft him, but he brought him in to shine, didn't he?

The Steelers have drafted well at WR - I'm not arguing that. They also value the position a lot more than New England, as is shown by the amount of capital thrown at the position in the respective organizations.

Wallace and Brown excelled in Pittsburgh's free-wheeling offense, sure. And yes, Sanders was a true hit. BB's biggest WR mistake was not over-bidding to steal him away from Pittsburgh!

 

[Lansdowne]

Fair to say for the most part the Steelers had much more success getting the most out of their drafted receivers than the Patriots have with their own. But that shouldn’t dissuade anyone here from wanting the Pats to take one of the Bama wideouts if they happen to fall to the 15th pick. Jaylen Waddle or DeVonta Smith would be BY FAR the most gifted wide receiver BB has ever drafted. This is not a typical offseason in Patriots history, and every draft class is different. If they have the talent, can be coached up, and stay healthy, they can succeed in New England.

Fun fact: The highest BB has ever drafted a wide receiver in his head coaching career is not N’Keal Harry at 32, but rather, Derrick Alexander at 29 (which was actually a comp pick in the first round!) for the Browns in 1994. Had a solid career for the Browns (turned Ravens) and Chiefs.

 

[50-yard-line]

For fun, I complied a list of DB's drafted the last 20 years of the BB era:

JoeJuan Williams (2nd)
Ken Webster (7th)
Duke Dawnson (2nd)
Keion Crossen (7th)
Cyrus Jones (1st)
Darryl Roberts (7th)
Jemea Thomas (6th, listed as DB)
Logan Ryan (3rd, listed as DB)
Duron Harmon (3rd, listed as DB)
Tavon Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Nate Ebner (6th, listed as DB)
Alfonzo Dennard (7th, listed as DB)
Ras-I Downling (2nd)
Malcolm Williams (7th, listed as DB)
Devin McCourty (1st, listed as DB)
Patrick Chung (2nd, listed as DB)
Darius Butler (2nd)
Terrence Wheatley (2nd, listed as DB)
Jonathan Wilhite (4th, listed as DB)
Brandon Meriweather (1st, listed as DB)
Mike Richardson (6th, listed as DB)
Willie Andrews (7th, listed as DB)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
James Sanders (4th, listed as DB)
Guss Scott (3rd, listed as DB)
Dexter Reis (4th, listed as DB)
Christian Morton (7th, listed as DB)
Eugene Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Asante Samuel (4th)
Brock Williams (2nd)
Leonard Myers (6th)
Antwan Harris (6th, listed as DB...and drafted before Brady, LOL)

The guys in BOLD were good, had one good season or so (Wilhite, Sanders, Wilson), played better elsewhere, played well at another position, or made a huge play in the playoffs (Harris), and/or the jury is still out for (JWill).

So Jonathan Jones, Malcolm Butler, and JC Jackson don't count, huh?

 

[Uptown]

Isn’t this the free agent thread??...Oh yeah, it’s patsfans.com.....Carry on..

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I have the Patriots as 4-14 because I dont consider the special teams guys and I'm not counting Barrios. He would be 5 of 16 if I did.

The Steelers expend 2x as many picks but their hit % is just a little above, not that much greater.

If you guys want to see a horror show, check out BBs drafting of DBs. Belichick is right about at the league average for drafting WRs, but for DBs he is horrific.

where do you get 2x from? I counted 24 vs 15 (berrios wasn’t drafted as a st only guy iirc ) since 2000. Plus we dont know how many of those Steelers wr were drafted as st only like slater. And even if the ‘hit ‘ rate is somewhat similar their hits are far better quality than ours. theres zero comparison between guys like mitchell and givens to guys like AB , plaxico, juju, santonio, Emmanuel sanders, mike Wallace so their hits should hold alot more weight in the calculation.

Matter of fact, i realized i just rattled off about 6 hits off the top of my head so i decided to attempt the math myself. You add in smaller hits like randel el , martvius bryant, and james Washington who are on the givens / Mitchell level, thats 9 hits out of 24 = .375. Compared to 4/15 = .267. Correct me if any of my #s are wrong but its really not close no matter how you look at it.

 

[upstater1]

For fun, I complied a list of DB's drafted the last 20 years of the BB era:

JoeJuan Williams (2nd)
Ken Webster (7th)
Duke Dawnson (2nd)
Keion Crossen (7th)
Cyrus Jones (1st)
Darryl Roberts (7th)
Jemea Thomas (6th, listed as DB)
Logan Ryan (3rd, listed as DB)
Duron Harmon (3rd, listed as DB)
Tavon Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Nate Ebner (6th, listed as DB)
Alfonzo Dennard (7th, listed as DB)
Ras-I Downling (2nd)
Malcolm Williams (7th, listed as DB)
Devin McCourty (1st, listed as DB)
Patrick Chung (2nd, listed as DB)
Darius Butler (2nd)
Terrence Wheatley (2nd, listed as DB)
Jonathan Wilhite (4th, listed as DB)
Brandon Meriweather (1st, listed as DB)
Mike Richardson (6th, listed as DB)
Willie Andrews (7th, listed as DB)
Ellis Hobbs (3rd)
James Sanders (4th, listed as DB)
Guss Scott (3rd, listed as DB)
Dexter Reis (4th, listed as DB)
Christian Morton (7th, listed as DB)
Eugene Wilson (2nd, listed as DB)
Asante Samuel (4th)
Brock Williams (2nd)
Leonard Myers (6th)
Antwan Harris (6th, listed as DB...and drafted before Brady, LOL)

The guys in BOLD were good, had one good season or so (Wilhite, Sanders, Wilson), played better elsewhere, played well at another position, or made a huge play in the playoffs (Harris), and/or the jury is still out for (JWill).

Wilhite? He was pretty bad, no?

It's not the numbers but WHERE these players were picked. BB was much better prior to 2009. I don't understand some of the bolds here actually. Darius Butler had a decent NFL career. But Wilhite was not on the field much for us. Wheatley, Jordan Richards, Ras-I, Tavon, Cyrus, Duke, JoeJuan. These are 2nd round picks!!!! 7 2nd round busts since 2008 is a lot! And we only hit on Harmon, Ryan and Chung since then in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.

 

[upstater1]

where do you get 2x from? I counted 24 vs 15 (berrios wasn’t drafted as a st only guy iirc ) since 2000. Plus we dont know how many of those Steelers wr were drafted as st only like slater. And even if the ‘hit ‘ rate is somewhat similar their hits are far better quality than ours. theres zero comparison between guys like mitchell and givens to guys like AB , plaxico, juju, santonio, Emmanuel sanders, mike Wallace so their hits should hold alot more weight in the calculation.

Matter of fact, i realized i just rattled off about 6 hits off the top of my head so i decided to attempt the math myself. You add in smaller hits like randel el , martvius bryant, and james Washington who are on the givens / Mitchell level, thats 9 hits out of 24 = .375. Compared to 4/15 = .267. Correct me if any of my #s are wrong but its really not close no matter how you look at it.

I count 14, not 15 for the Patriots. Like I said, 4 of 14.

Pitt expends higher picks than us which helps their hit rate. 3 2nds in the last 4 years, 1 3rd. You're going to hit more in the early rounds.
Patriots have only N'Keal Harry. You're going to miss taking so few guys, just as the Steelers have missed on high picks like Sweed, Coates, Archer, Wheaton, etc. That's 4 busts in the last 7 years, but if you keep picking more and more and more, it's going to help.

The league average is in the 30% range.