Brady vs Jordan

[Boomer B]

Can’t compare between sports. It’s apples and oranges. Both Brady and Jordan are on the Mt. Rushmore of N. American team sports greats, probably alongside Ruth and Gretzky.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Can’t compare between sports. It’s apples and oranges. Both Brady and Jordan are on the Mt. Rushmore of N. American team sports greats, probably alongside Ruth and Gretzky.

Part of what makes sports interesting is I think some people, like myself, would not agree with Jordan and Gretzky, although in terms of pop culture perception they are probably the top two. I am not convinced that Jordan is the GOAT (see my last post) due to his own decisions to retire twice during his prime and essentially just winning the same championship six straight times (same era and the relatively short 8-year championship stretch made for limited and favorable competition, similar teammates each time, 55-win team without him.)

Basketball is tough because so many players have completely dominated the sport, but Bill Russell won two National Championships at University of San Francisco and then 11 championships with the Celtics. My father in-law is a huge Lakers fan and has followed the NBA closely since the 50s, and he doesn't believe Jordan is even close to Russell. Obviously the only thing against him is an 8 team league. Magic Johnson made it to nine finals and won five. Jordan made it to six and won six. I'm not even totally convinced Jordan is the best player from 1980-1996. Magic didn't retire twice and throw away multiple prime seasons; Jordan did.

I am less convinced that Gretzky is the GOAT. Bobby Orr was significantly better going by plus-minus and, and there is still no who can match Orr's dominance at both ends of the ice; it's nothing against Gretzky, other than pointing out he was a one-way player who was amazing on offense, but several players have had comparable offensive efficiencies in their primes; I'd just take Orr at his peak over Gretzky at his peak without hesitation since the object is to outscore the other team. There is literally not a single historically comparable player to Orr; a player being the best defensive and offensive player in the league at the same time? Meanwhile, the 80s Edmonton Oilers were so stacked they won a championship two years after Gretzky left; Mark Messier won a championship with the Rangers after leaving; Gretzky never won a championship with the Kings. There's some serious GOAT-questioning here.

My Rushmore would be Ruth, Ali, Brady, and either Nicklaus or Russell. I value long-term dominance and overcoming different challenges at different stages of your life/career to continue dominance, and all of these players meet that criteria.

 

[PatCat]

Not comparable. But Basketball players have more impact on a game and play both sides of the ball. Oh and MJ never lost a finals. 6 for 6 so MJ is the rationale pick if I had to compare.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Not comparable. But Basketball players have more impact on a game and play both sides of the ball. Oh and MJ never lost a finals. 6 for 6 so MJ is the rationale pick if I had to compare.

Not losing a finals, while playing 15 years, means that nine times he could not GET TO THE FINALS but instead LOST SOONER. 6-3 in the finals is WAY better than 6-0. Was Sam Darnold great this year because he didn't lose a Super Bowl?

 

[1960Pats]

Not losing a finals, while playing 15 years, means that nine times he could not GET TO THE FINALS but instead LOST SOONER. 6-3 in the finals is WAY better than 6-0. Was Sam Darnold great this year because he didn't lose a Super Bowl?

11-1 in the finals is much better than both.

 

[1960Pats]

Part of what makes sports interesting is I think some people, like myself, would not agree with Jordan and Gretzky, although in terms of pop culture perception they are probably the top two. I am not convinced that Jordan is the GOAT (see my last post) due to his own decisions to retire twice during his prime and essentially just winning the same championship six straight times (same era and the relatively short 8-year championship stretch made for limited and favorable competition, similar teammates each time, 55-win team without him.)

Basketball is tough because so many players have completely dominated the sport, but Bill Russell won two National Championships at University of San Francisco and then 11 championships with the Celtics. My father in-law is a huge Lakers fan and has followed the NBA closely since the 50s, and he doesn't believe Jordan is even close to Russell. Obviously the only thing against him is an 8 team league. Magic Johnson made it to nine finals and won five. Jordan made it to six and won six. I'm not even totally convinced Jordan is the best player from 1980-1996. Magic didn't retire twice and throw away multiple prime seasons; Jordan did.

I am less convinced that Gretzky is the GOAT. Bobby Orr was significantly better going by plus-minus and, and there is still no who can match Orr's dominance at both ends of the ice; it's nothing against Gretzky, other than pointing out he was a one-way player who was amazing on offense, but several players have had comparable offensive efficiencies in their primes; I'd just take Orr at his peak over Gretzky at his peak without hesitation since the object is to outscore the other team. There is literally not a single historically comparable player to Orr; a player being the best defensive and offensive player in the league at the same time? Meanwhile, the 80s Edmonton Oilers were so stacked they won a championship two years after Gretzky left; Mark Messier won a championship with the Rangers after leaving; Gretzky never won a championship with the Kings. There's some serious GOAT-questioning here.

My Rushmore would be Ruth, Ali, Brady, and either Nicklaus or Russell. I value long-term dominance and overcoming different challenges at different stages of your life/career to continue dominance, and all of these players meet that criteria.

Your father-in-law is right. Jordan is not even close to Russell.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not losing a finals, while playing 15 years, means that nine times he could not GET TO THE FINALS but instead LOST SOONER. 6-3 in the finals is WAY better than 6-0. Was Sam Darnold great this year because he didn't lose a Super Bowl?

When someone says, "Tom Brady lost 3 Super Bowls and Joe Montana is 4-0 and that proves he's better in the big game," is the most asinine argument in the history of Earth.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Your father-in-law is right. Jordan is not even close to Russell.

Bill Russell is the greatest winner in the history of team sports.

 

[Soliel]

11-1 in the finals is much better than both.

11-1 in the finals will never happen again. I hate using the word “never” and “ever” as an old priest told me that god laughs when we say it. But here’s an example of not going to happen again. Not within the same time span. I mean maybe some day the bulls will be 11-1 in finals play some year around 2370

 

[Boomer B]

Part of what makes sports interesting is I think some people, like myself, would not agree with Jordan and Gretzky, although in terms of pop culture perception they are probably the top two. I am not convinced that Jordan is the GOAT (see my last post) due to his own decisions to retire twice during his prime and essentially just winning the same championship six straight times (same era and the relatively short 8-year championship stretch made for limited and favorable competition, similar teammates each time, 55-win team without him.)

Basketball is tough because so many players have completely dominated the sport, but Bill Russell won two National Championships at University of San Francisco and then 11 championships with the Celtics. My father in-law is a huge Lakers fan and has followed the NBA closely since the 50s, and he doesn't believe Jordan is even close to Russell. Obviously the only thing against him is an 8 team league. Magic Johnson made it to nine finals and won five. Jordan made it to six and won six. I'm not even totally convinced Jordan is the best player from 1980-1996. Magic didn't retire twice and throw away multiple prime seasons; Jordan did.

I am less convinced that Gretzky is the GOAT. Bobby Orr was significantly better going by plus-minus and, and there is still no who can match Orr's dominance at both ends of the ice; it's nothing against Gretzky, other than pointing out he was a one-way player who was amazing on offense, but several players have had comparable offensive efficiencies in their primes; I'd just take Orr at his peak over Gretzky at his peak without hesitation since the object is to outscore the other team. There is literally not a single historically comparable player to Orr; a player being the best defensive and offensive player in the league at the same time? Meanwhile, the 80s Edmonton Oilers were so stacked they won a championship two years after Gretzky left; Mark Messier won a championship with the Rangers after leaving; Gretzky never won a championship with the Kings. There's some serious GOAT-questioning here.

My Rushmore would be Ruth, Ali, Brady, and either Nicklaus or Russell. I value long-term dominance and overcoming different challenges at different stages of your life/career to continue dominance, and all of these players meet that criteria.

Interesting. For a Mt. Rushmore i’d have one for team sports and one for individuals. Just to hard to compare a team to an individual sport.

I have Jordan ahead of Russell. He did it in a much harder era. Winning in a 8 team league is much easier then the modern era. Jordan was everything you want: clutch, talented, competitive. No slight to Russell who is a legend, but to me Jordan is the best ever. I have a similar argument with a friend who is a Habs fan and says Montreal is the best dynasty ever. How can you be the best dynasty when it was a 6 team league? So much easier to win.

With Gretzky vs Orr I actually agree with you that Orr was the superior player. If you’re picking one player to start a team I’m going with Orr. The argument gets more clouded though when you compare their careers. Gretzky doubles Orr in titles. Dominates much longer and amasses stats that will never be reached. Probably tilts the Mt. Rushmore to Gretzky.

 

[everlong]

I truly believe Bobby Orr was better than Gretzky. His plus-minus was far superior. He led the league in scoring multiple season as a defenseman! Many hockey players and analysts agree. Gretzky was the best scorer ever but not necessarily the most valuable player.

On of the Boston radio personalities, I wish I could remember which one, had a story where he was at a sports banquet and Gretzky was there. He went up and said "It's an honor to meet the second greatest hockey player of all time" to which Gretzky replied "How's the weather in Boston this time of the year".

It was said with a huge unaffected smile which really made me like Gretzky. That totally seems like something Brady would say.

 

[Vindicate]

No one tops Aleksandr Karelin. His wrestling record is 887 wins and two losses. Since we're just going apples to oranges on everything right now lmao.

But seriously, reading up on Karelin is awesome. Golded in 3 seperate olympics, absolutely dominated in Greco Roman wrestling. I believe he is a politician now lmao?

For the record, I'm not actually comparing the two.

 

[sb1]

I've heard this argument a lot this week but I'm not sure what's being compared here.

How impressive each of their accomplishment of 6 rings are? That's Brady hands down for reasons stated above.

Longetivity? Brady. The man is 41 years old, won his 6th championship playing at a very high level, won an MVP at 40 and is elevating the bar on peak athletic performance. But Jordan was no slouch. He wasn't what he was when he was younger but he still led the Wizards in scoring close to his 40's and even scored 43 in a game one time over age 40.

Who means more to their team? It's a wash I think. Both mean so much to their team's championship runs and without either, their team wouldn't be nearly as successful But we have no idea how either team would really do without Brady/MJ and there's reason to believe both would be still pretty good and maybe win one sometime in that timeperiod.

Their greatness overall? I think Jordan would have to get the nod here for just one reason. Basketball is a global sport and Jordan is a legend not just in America but around the world. I believe people around the world know who Tom Brady is but can't appreciate his greatness as the NFL is not a global sport. Not yet anyway.

JMO

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

On of the Boston radio personalities, I wish I could remember which one, had a story where he was at a sports banquet and Gretzky was there. He went up and said "It's an honor to meet the second greatest hockey player of all time" to which Gretzky replied "How's the weather in Boston this time of the year".

It was said with a huge unaffected smile which really made me like Gretzky. That totally seems like something Brady would say.

Yeah I love Gretzky as a person and teammate. There’s nothing to dislike about the guy. You won’t get a lot passionate arguments against his sheer greatness. Plus his daughter gives him any tiebreaker if she will attend an honorary ceremony, or even if they’ll publish a picture of her. Lol.

Jordan is a total assh0le. I mean like as big a jerk as he was a great player. Massive Reddit treasure troves of personal encounters with him. This is another reason why I question how successful he’d have been without the peace guru Phil Jackson and an crazy talented guy like Pippen who was glad to be Robin.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I've heard this argument a lot this week but I'm not sure what's being compared here.

How impressive each of their accomplishment of 6 rings are? That's Brady hands down for reasons stated above.

Longetivity? Brady. The man is 41 years old, won his 6th championship playing at a very high level, won an MVP at 40 and is elevating the bar on peak athletic performance. But Jordan was no slouch. He wasn't what he was when he was younger but he still led the Wizards in scoring close to his 40's and even scored 43 in a game one time over age 40.

Who means more to their team? It's a wash I think. The Bulls were no slouches with PJ as their coach and even without Jordan but it's doubtful they would have won any. We really do not know how Brady would do without Belichick or whether the Patriots would be a championship team with another good QB beside Brady (Hoyer does not count as a good QB). They'd be a good team with BB as coach. But there's still no proof either way.

Their greatness overall? I think Jordan would have to get the nod here for just one reason. Basketball is a global sport and Jordan is a legend not just in America but around the world. I believe people around the world know who Tom Brady is but can't appreciate his greatness as the NFL is not a global sport. Not yet anyway.

JMO

For all these people wondering if TB12 would win a championship without Belichick, how many did Jordan win in like 10+ tries without Jackson? And for the Matt Cassel/11-5 crowd, I guess a 55 win team in the NBA (94 Bulls sans Jordan) is average?

 

[sb1]

And for the Matt Cassel/11-5 crowd

The way I see it is the Patriots missed the playoffs in 2008 because they couldn't beat good teams anymore without Brady. 2-4 against playoff teams that year compared to 6-1 the year before. 3 of those losses were blowouts. Also blown out twice at Gillette Stadium.

With no Brady AND with no Belichick to mitigate the damage, the Pats were probably looking at something closer to 4-12 in 2008.

The Colts suffered big time without Peyton Manning but there's no reason to think they wouldn't have easily been a .500 team or better if they had Belichick.

 

[Patstastic]

Can't compare the two sports. A Basketball player can play defense & offense. Two stars on one team = a lock to make the Finals. Also, basketball is a best of seven. Meaning Jordan could have one or two lousy games, yet still win the title. NFL is a one game elimination tournament. One lousy game by a QB likely = elimination.

These past two SB's are a shining example as to why Football is truly a team sport. Brady throws for 505 yards, yet loses. Then, he struggles on Sunday, yet the defense picks the team up. Coaching is also much more important in Football. Look at the Rams with Fisher. Now look at them with McVay.

Also, people are bringing up the 08 Patriots without Brady. 11-5 looks good. That is until you realize they lost to every postseason team on their schedule. They were also loaded on offense & defense. They were coming off 16-0. Ultimately, that 11-5 record isn't as good as it first seems.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The way I see it is the Patriots missed the playoffs in 2008 because they couldn't beat good teams anymore without Brady. 2-4 against playoff teams that year compared to 6-1 the year before. 3 of those losses were blowouts. Also blown out twice at Gillette Stadium.

With no Brady AND with no Belichick to mitigate the damage, the Pats were probably looking at something closer to 4-12 in 2008.

The Colts suffered big time without Peyton Manning but there's no reason to think they wouldn't have easily been a .500 team or better if they had Belichick.

And strong reason to think Manning crashes and burns while reporting to Belichick like a good soldier, sacrificing his personal stats and ego for the good of the team. Colts built a fantasy team for Manning to thrive statistically.

 

[everlong]

Yeah I love Gretzky as a person and teammate. There’s nothing to dislike about the guy. You won’t get a lot passionate arguments against his sheer greatness. Plus his daughter gives him any tiebreaker if she will attend an honorary ceremony, or even if they’ll publish a picture of her. Lol.

Jordan is a total assh0le. I mean like as big a jerk as he was a great player. Massive Reddit treasure troves of personal encounters with him. This is another reason why I question how successful he’d have been without the peace guru Phil Jackson and an crazy talented guy like Pippen who was glad to be Robin.

Only if MJ was Batman. He got pissy when Kukoc got the ball. There's so many guys who's public persona doesn't fit the asshats they were. Lasorda is legendary. Sugar Ray Leonard was in a restaurant I worked in as a high school job and left the waitress a 25 cent tip.

Hagler on the other hand had a bad reputation because the press didn't like him. He was awesome. A friend of mine and I were at Tia's in Boston and Marvin tried hitting on these two girls and we knew they didn't have a clue who he was. So we went over and said to them do you have any idea who you were talking to? They of course didn't. Next thing we know a round of drinks shows up for the 4 of us and the waitress says compliments of Mr Hagler. We look over and he toasts us and has a huge smile of his face. That was really cool.

Dennis Johnson was at a club one night and was super cool to everybody signing stuff and talking to everybody in the place. Very laid back and just happy to be out.

I met Jerry Tarkanian in Vegas at the Shark club which he owned in Vegas. Super nice and personable to everybody and I hated the Running Rebels team with LJ, Augman and the rest.

You just never know.

 

[sb1]

And strong reason to think Manning crashes and burns while reporting to Belichick like a good soldier, sacrificing his personal stats and ego for the good of the team. Colts built a fantasy team for Manning to thrive statistically.

Yup. People love saying that Manning or Rodgers or whoever would win lots of rings with Belichick in New England without any evidence to back that up.

Maybe it’s just me but I see lots of reasons to think they wouldn’t win even one.