Things that still bug me

[Slagathor]

My understanding is the camera was confiscated early in the game.

By then the Jets would have been able to alter their signals.

From that point, the Pats ass-kicking began. Especially after the half.

Can somebody clarify this for me?

Am I right on this stuff..?

I know we're moving on to SD...................

 

[SWelker]

Re: Things that still bug me.

Nope, you are correct on all points. Time for the Chargers.

Lets the Jets fan whine about this for the next 5 years, you know they won't be playing in any big games come January anyways.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The camera was caught early, the game was won by the Patriots, as was the other games that they have in the last 7 yrs...


The thing that bugs me is that this is cloud will be with us for ever... Nothing is going to be legit anymore in eyes outside New England...

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The thing that bugs me is that this is cloud will be with us for ever... Nothing is going to be legit anymore in eyes outside New England...

I agree, and it makes me sick b/c there's no logic to that thought.

 

[BoltsFan]

Re: Things that still bug me.

My understanding is the camera was confiscated early in the game.

By then the Jets would have been able to alter their signals.

From that point, the Pats ass-kicking began. Especially after the half.

Can somebody clarify this for me?

Am I right on this stuff..?

I know we're moving on to SD...................

I understand what you're trying to say. The pats would have spanked arse with or without. I agree. But that's not the point.

Here's the point. The rules are what they are and NE violated them. For that the franchise should be punished. Period. End of story. Trust me, BB understands this.

 

[Slagathor]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The camera was caught early, the game was won by the Patriots, as was the other games that they have in the last 7 yrs...


The thing that bugs me is that this is cloud will be with us for ever... Nothing is going to be legit anymore in eyes outside New England...

Who cares...........................!!!!!!!!!!!!

We were on an Island for the past 6-7 years anyways.

Trust me. Continued success will diminish most of that cloud as time goes on.

Eventually those who will continue to cast that cloud will be called whiners.

 

[Fogbuster]

Re: Things that still bug me.

.


Did we ever hear about that guy with the camera and Jets' shirt filming the Pats?? Was that a genuine photo of the guy or just a photoshop insert??

If it was real, what was the explanation of that guy, a cameraman filming from the Jets' sideline, a cameraman who was not wearing proper identification, a cameraman who was not even supposed to be shooting film during the game, at least according to my reading of the rule that was published along side BB's punishment.



//

 

[Slagathor]

Re: Things that still bug me.

I understand what you're trying to say. The pats would have spanked arse with or without. I agree. But that's not the point.

Here's the point. The rules are what they are and NE violated them. For that the franchise should be punished. Period. End of story. Trust me, BB understands this.

I'm not arguing the whole rule breaking part of it. They deserved to be punished. My point being that whatever actual benefit the camera could have provided was eliminated very early in the game.

Hence some folks calling for game forfeiture seems way off base to me.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The Commissioner found that there was no harm to the jets. That's not the issue.

However, let's consider if you had an illegal loaded gun pointed at someone's head and the gun is taken away from you.

1) Are you guilty of carrying an illegal firearm even thought this is a minor offense next to murder, and given that there are many other illegal weapons with the same purpose as a gun?

2) Should we applaud or be distain your action if you are our friend or buddy or if the person your pointing at is Mangini?

3) Are you guilty of attempted murder? Or should we simply believe that we didn't know what you were going to do with the gun?

Just because the patriots weren't allowed to using any output of the film during the game doesn't inform us whether they would have done so, or not. BTW, one COULD argue that being forced to change you signals midgame is harm, not true in this case since Mangini was well-aware of Belichick's tactics and had three sets of signals.

Belichick broke the law and the law won. Let's move on. And yes, let's change the law/rule.

 

[sieglo]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The Pats never had a chance to do anything with the film in the camera -- even if they had intended to, which they deny.

The historical record shows that if the Pats were breaking down signal film and trying to use it for an advantage over halftime, they failed miserably:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=61090

Finally, the Commissioner came out and stated flat out there was no impact on the Jets game.

 

[BoltsFan]

Re: Things that still bug me.

I'm not arguing the whole rule breaking part of it. They deserved to be punished. My point being that whatever actual benefit the camera could have provided was eliminated very early in the game.

Hence some folks calling for game forfeiture seems way off base to me.

Agreed. I don't think game forfeiture was ever a consideration. That goes beyond the scope of the infraction.

Here's the punishment I think should have been meted. X amount of Game suspensions (after tomorrows game ) for BB in almost the same way players are suspended. Meaning no contact with the team and no pay. Up to but not exceeding the 500k max. 1st AND a 2nd round pick. Given the fact that NE had 2 1st rounders next year.

And here's why. This is not exactly about NE. This is about the integrity of the game and a message needs to be sent. Plus, BB was warned last year by both Detroit and GB. Couple that with the stern letter of instruction sent out by the league and what we have is the fact that BB knew that what he was doing was in complete violation of NFL rules. There's no other way to look at it.

I understand there are more than a few pats fans out there who buy BB's explanation that it was a misinterpretation. All I'll say is that all pats fans should understand that's a homer POV. No other fans view it that way.

Further to the point. If you're truly a fan of the game you could never view what happened as a misinterpretation. No. It was about looking to get and/or maintain an edge. Every competitor understands that.

But when you cross the line you cross the line. Make no mistake BB knew he was crossing the line.

Let me put it this way? Any pats fan who thinks he misinterpreted anything should think about how smart he really is. If any pats fan thinks he's a "genius" and you think he misinterpreted NFL rules, maybe you should reconsider the "genius" moniker.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

Re: Things that still bug me.

My understanding is the camera was confiscated early in the game.

By then the Jets would have been able to alter their signals.

From that point, the Pats ass-kicking began. Especially after the half.

Can somebody clarify this for me?

Am I right on this stuff..?

I know we're moving on to SD...................

Dude-don't sweat it, it's pretty much been a slow news day since the start of summer.

On CNN, they did a segment on "cheating"(not just the Pats, but pretty much everything else). I kind of find it funny how they condemned the Pats for doing so, but in the WHOLE, the mainstream media will CONDONE(and start making excuses) when pretty much everyone in this world does it(that was pretty much their tone on the entire segment).

 

[PonyExpress]

Re: Things that still bug me.

The Commissioner found that there was no harm to the jets. That's not the issue.

However, let's consider if you had an illegal loaded gun pointed at someone's head and the gun is taken away from you.

1) Are you guilty of carrying an illegal firearm even thought this is a minor offense next to murder, and given that there are many other illegal weapons with the same purpose as a gun?

2) Should we applaud or be distain your action if you are our friend or buddy or if the person your pointing at is Mangini?

3) Are you guilty of attempted murder? Or should we simply believe that we didn't know what you were going to do with the gun?

Just because the patriots weren't allowed to using any output of the film during the game doesn't inform us whether they would have done so, or not. BTW, one COULD argue that being forced to change you signals midgame is harm, not true in this case since Mangini was well-aware of Belichick's tactics and had three sets of signals.

Belichick broke the law and the law won. Let's move on. And yes, let's change the law/rule.

Interesting analogy. Let's try another one. Pretend you're a cowboy. You're riding on the outskirts of Dodge City. On the way into town you see a sign that reads: no firearms allowed within city limits. The sign's been there for years, but you've been to Dodge City hundreds of times and the law had never been enforced. So whistling a tune you ride to your favorite watering hole, and there meet the kid you raised who happens to be working for a competing outfit. Inside the bar are two dozen other armed cowboys having a riproaring good time, with a room full of prostitutes, gambling. Suddenly the sheriff taps you on the shoulder, and tells you you're being arrested for carrying a firearm. He strips you naked, beats you with thorns and has you photographed for the territory newspaper. He sets your bond at a year's salary. While you're in jail, the sheriff confides that your old friend, the kid you raised, and his competing outfit, put him up to it. Hell, he had to do it or they would have got him fired. You get out of jail, and the first thing your relatives ask you is, "Why the hell were you carrying a gun in Dodge City?"

 

[The Gr8est]

Re: Things that still bug me.

Agreed. I don't think game forfeiture was ever a consideration. That goes beyond the scope of the infraction.

Here's the punishment I think should have been meted. X amount of Game suspensions (after tomorrows game ) for BB in almost the same way players are suspended. Meaning no contact with the team and no pay. Up to but not exceeding the 500k max. 1st AND a 2nd round pick. Given the fact that NE had 2 1st rounders next year.

Why does everyone insist that the number of picks the Pats have should have any bearing on the severity of the penalty?

If the Pats had used both picks last year and traded next year's what would the punishment be then?

The fact that the Pats are so good at running a draft should have no bearing on the punishment.

Why don't you just wait until next year, and if a good player slides to the Pats, the league can force the Pats to bypass him and take a different player of the league's choosing. If the player the Pats get is better than the one they wanted, then the league can force the Pats to trade their better player for the lesser one.

Would you like to stack the deck against the Pats some more? Let's hear some suggestions, I'm sure Bill Polian could help you out there if you need assistance.

There is nothing more treacherous than a loser scorned!

 

[mgteich]

Re: Things that still bug me.

Yours is an excellent analagy, much better than mine.

The image of the NFL is indeed becoming that of Dodge City. The new sheriff wants to cleanup up the town.

I would make a couple of revisions to your story. The sign was changed last year, and the cowboy was told. He talks to folks in town all the time, and was well aware of the changed sign. He was also warned twice last year about this rules, and about the new sheriff. Finally, a couple of other lawbreakers were thrown in jail for al long time recently by the new sheriff.\

Oh, the town banker and head of the local businessmen's group is the cowboy's boss.

Interesting analogy. Let's try another one. Pretend you're a cowboy. You're riding on the outskirts of Dodge City. On the way into town you see a sign that reads: no firearms allowed within city limits. The sign been there for years, but you've been to Dodge City hundreds of times and the law had never been enforced. So whistling a tune you ride to your favorite watering hole, and there meet the kid you raised who happens to be working for a competing outfit. Inside the bar are two dozen other armed cowboys having a riproaring good time, with a room full of prostitutes, gambling. Suddenly the sheriff taps you on the shoulder, and tells you you're being arrested for carrying a firearm. He strips you naked, beats you with thorns and has you photographed for the territory newspaper. He sets your bond at a year's salary. While you're in jail, the sheriff confides that your old friend, the kid you raised, and his competing outfit, put him up to it. Hell, he had to do it or they would have got him fired. You get out of jail, and the first thing your relatives ask you is, "Why the hell were you carrying a gun in Dodge City?"

 

[PonyExpress]

Re: Things that still bug me.

Yours is an excellent analagy, much better than mine.

The image of the NFL is indeed becoming that of Dodge City. The new sheriff wants to cleanup up the town.

I would make a couple of revisions to your story. The sign was changed last year, and the cowboy was told. He talks to folks in town all the time, and was well aware of the changed sign. He was also warned twice last year about this rules, and about the new sheriff. Finally, a couple of other lawbreakers were thrown in jail for al long time recently by the new sheriff.\

Oh, the town banker and head of the local businessmen's group is the cowboy's boss.

The NFL has always been Dodge City. The other guys thrown in jail had committed violent crimes. The sign was just repainted, never enforced.

 

[Bella*chick]

Re: Things that still bug me.

PonyExpress, you are totally awesome. Your posts have been a high point during this debacle.

Your analogy is perfection.

 

[Nordberg]

Re: Things that still bug me.

I hate even saying that the camera was taken in the first quarter crap. Using that arguement invites the notion of all other victorys to be tainted.....Even if the tape was taken at the end of the game...it wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome.

For the last time....the Pats broke a rule. They didn't get this huge advantage everyone likes to think.

 

[Nordberg]

Re: Things that still bug me.

You know what? You pats fans are in denial. Let me to help you understand why.

First off I want to clearly state that I have relatively few issues with the cheating thing. Wait, allow me to put it another way. I have no problems with the pats skirting the rules.

I have no problem with it primarily because the game is about execution. There are many times on D for example whereby you pretty much know what play is coming. Not because you're cheating or anything of the sort. Players just know. It's about instinct and understanding tendencies.

Knowing what play is coming doesn't matter nearly as much as stopping it from working. Put another way? A truly dominant offense can and almost does literally clue the opposing D on what's coming given down, distance, and time. The Q is always about can you stop it? Because of that absolute fact, on offense and defense it's always about dictating. The only way you get to dictate as a team is by executing. From the players perspective, generally speaking, it sincerely does not matter if the opposing team knows what's coming.

The above said, here's my take on the scandal. BB knowingly violated the rules. A cameraman on the sidelines does cross the line. Do not think for a second that he was unaware or somehow misinterpreted things. He didn't.

Any Pats fans trying to look at it and think, "oh well, the tape was confiscated what advantage can you gain anyway?" You're in denial. It as simple as this. If there was no advantage he wouldn't have been doing it.

Here's the biggest reason why pats fans are definitely in denial. Most pats fans are trying to convince themselves that "everyone" does it. That's BS. I'll say right here right now that I'm 99% sure neither the Chargers or the Colts do it. If anyone else in the NFL is doing it? Well? I think it's safe to say it's not that effective which almost certainly serves my initial point. Doesn't matter if you know whats coming.

Pats fans need to stop pointing fingers. It's unbecoming. Suck it up and deal.

I'll go on record and say this. No other team in the NFL is gonna go down for this. Even if BB has the goods on another team, I know him well enough to know that nothing will come of that.

The idea of legerdemain is all fine and well and I understand pats fans thinking that every team does whatever it can to gain a competitive advantage. But there is a line and ONLY the pats crossed it.

It is what it is?

Please tell me exactly how the Pats have this big advantage of video recording opposing teams defense signals....Since there are at least one dummy signal at all times.....sometimes two.

They do it for nothing but future tendencies.....it does nothing for that day.

But explain the process....I would love to here it.

 

[lusdawg]

Re: Things that still bug me.

Oh boy! Once again, the pot calling the kettle black. Two words: Shawn Merriman. How many games did the Bolts have an unfair competitive advantage due to the superhuman strength and athleticism of a steroid-using phenom? Hmmm ... 4 games ... is that fair? The Chargers probably won several close games due to a Merriman sack ... so how many draft picks should the Chargers lose ?!?! After all, hardly any of the other NFL players use this stuff, right? I say the Chargers got off VERY easy with this one, no? Are the Bolts fans in denial? Dunno ... but I'm guessing this is why you have no problem with the cheating thing. Oh yeah, how's Merriman's lawsuit going against that "supplement" company?? Oh, BTW ... I'm not condoning the behavior of Belichick, but other former coaches and camera men have, indeed, stated that other teams DO do this (yes, I said do do) ...

You know what? You pats fans are in denial. Let me to help you understand why.

First off I want to clearly state that I have relatively few issues with the cheating thing. Wait, allow me to put it another way. I have no problems with the pats skirting the rules.

I have no problem with it primarily because the game is about execution. There are many times on D for example whereby you pretty much know what play is coming. Not because you're cheating or anything of the sort. Players just know. It's about instinct and understanding tendencies.

Knowing what play is coming doesn't matter nearly as much as stopping it from working. Put another way? A truly dominant offense can and almost does literally clue the opposing D on what's coming given down, distance, and time. The Q is always about can you stop it? Because of that absolute fact, on offense and defense it's always about dictating. The only way you get to dictate as a team is by executing. From the players perspective, generally speaking, it sincerely does not matter if the opposing team knows what's coming.

The above said, here's my take on the scandal. BB knowingly violated the rules. A cameraman on the sidelines does cross the line. Do not think for a second that he was unaware or somehow misinterpreted things. He didn't.

Any Pats fans trying to look at it and think, "oh well, the tape was confiscated what advantage can you gain anyway?" You're in denial. It as simple as this. If there was no advantage he wouldn't have been doing it.

Here's the biggest reason why pats fans are definitely in denial. Most pats fans are trying to convince themselves that "everyone" does it. That's BS. I'll say right here right now that I'm 99% sure neither the Chargers or the Colts do it. If anyone else in the NFL is doing it? Well? I think it's safe to say it's not that effective which almost certainly serves my initial point. Doesn't matter if you know whats coming.

Pats fans need to stop pointing fingers. It's unbecoming. Suck it up and deal.

I'll go on record and say this. No other team in the NFL is gonna go down for this. Even if BB has the goods on another team, I know him well enough to know that nothing will come of that.

The idea of legerdemain is all fine and well and I understand pats fans thinking that every team does whatever it can to gain a competitive advantage. But there is a line and ONLY the pats crossed it.

It is what it is?