The Front 6 or 7 of the Patriots

[BobDigital]

There has been a lot of talk about this topic but i didn't see a thread related solely to it. With the cutting of Ealy we can assume the Patriots don't plan to run a prototypical front 4 too much at this point. There has been a lot of speculation at the use of a 3-3 front and a 5-1 front and a heavy 4-2 without the typical duel perimeter pass rushers and more heavy ends to focus on stopping the run and collapsing the pocket slowly depending on the DBs to hold a bit longer.

When the Pats do run a true front 7 with 4 linemen and 3 LBs there are some questions about what is the best group for this. What will Harvey Langi's and Adam Butler's role be in this defense? Why did Ealy who is more of a pass rusher not fit here when he is perhaps the most prototypical DE we had and had a decent showing the last 2 preseason contest?

Lots of interesting questions here at this spot on the team schematically.

 

[patsinthesnow]

The Pats used the 3-3-5 (Seen it referred also as the 5-1) front 60% of the time in the playoffs. Chatham has the depth chart down pretty well here:



That formation had a sack % just above 10% in the playoffs. The NFL season leader was around 8%. Also, even though we did not sack Big Ben that 3 man line got good push on a number of plays.

It's pretty smart by BB & co. since we essentially go from the worst depth in the league for a traditional 4-2-5 defense with two DEs to what i would call great depth at both 3-3-5 DE spots, NT/DT & OLB is solid as well.

Harris is key. If he's still good he's a big upgrade over Roberts from last year & allows Hightower to play OLB full time.


When do run DL with two traditional DEs sparingly, my guess is it'll be Flowers & Wise or Butler.

 

[maineman209]

There has been a lot of talk about this topic but i didn't see a thread related solely to it. With the cutting of Ealy we can assume the Patriots don't plan to run a prototypical front 4 too much at this point. There has been a lot of speculation at the use of a 3-3 front and a 5-1 front and a heavy 4-2 without the typical duel perimeter pass rushers and more heavy ends to focus on stopping the run and collapsing the pocket slowly depending on the DBs to hold a bit longer.

When the Pats do run a true front 7 with 4 linemen and 3 LBs there are some questions about what is the best group for this. What will Harvey Langi's and Adam Butler's role be in this defense? Why did Ealy who is more of a pass rusher not fit here when he is perhaps the most prototypical DE we had and had a decent showing the last 2 preseason contest?

Lots of interesting questions here at this spot on the team schematically.

For me, counting how many different defensive formations the Pats deploy with different personnel, and watching how Langi's and Butler's roles develop and evolve over the course of the season will a huge amount of fun. So many of these guys have such versatility beyond their nominal positions, it's difficult to predict how they'll line up or what they'll do when the ball is snapped.

But then, that's the point, I suppose.

For me, Ealy simply looked too indecisive and inconsistent in his last appearance, and just got outplayed by both Langi and Butler.

 

[mgteich]

The patriots usually do NOT change their defensive schemes because a player or two goes down.

We have lots and lots of different looks. All of these continue to be available. There are some "keys" that do affect available schemes. Harris being able to be our MLB is one key, allowing Hightower to play more outside or toe be more flexible. IMHO, Harmon playing so much nickel is also a key.

We have our 3 DT's returning. We've added backups in Guy and likely Butler, but they aren't needed unless there is an injury.

We have Harris as our primary MLB.

The DT core and Harris uses FOUR roster positions. The other TEN players are available for all the EDGE, and DE roles. At least a couple need to be STers. We also need one of these players to play inside at LB.

I don't see why folks think that we need to change our defensive schemes.

There has been a lot of talk about this topic but i didn't see a thread related solely to it. With the cutting of Ealy we can assume the Patriots don't plan to run a prototypical front 4 too much at this point. There has been a lot of speculation at the use of a 3-3 front and a 5-1 front and a heavy 4-2 without the typical duel perimeter pass rushers and more heavy ends to focus on stopping the run and collapsing the pocket slowly depending on the DBs to hold a bit longer.

When the Pats do run a true front 7 with 4 linemen and 3 LBs there are some questions about what is the best group for this. What will Harvey Langi's and Adam Butler's role be in this defense? Why did Ealy who is more of a pass rusher not fit here when he is perhaps the most prototypical DE we had and had a decent showing the last 2 preseason contest?

Lots of interesting questions here at this spot on the team schematically.

 

[BobDigital]

Just worth pointing out some issues with the 3-3-5 or 5-1-5.

#1 Branch is the only guy who can play the NT spot effectively on this team. Brown or Valentine could take it over if need be but they are not that solid immovable rock in the middle Branch is.
#2 The OLBs who sub as potential DEs are not particularly good. Yes Hightower is great but I don't have a lot of confidence in McClellin or Van Noy to really help there. They should do better in those roles than as true LBs but I don't think they have earned a lot of confidence yet. Langi I really like but he is still a rookie.
#3 MLB is thin. Roberts with pick the wrong lane nearly as much as the right one. If Harris gets an injury and you want to continue running this formation you are forced to put Hightower back there and then the OLBs in this formation become fairly ineffective.

Though I do like the idea I do see some depth concerns. Of course if those pop up they can always go to more of a 4-2 with just a heavy set.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Just worth pointing out some issues with the 3-3-5 or 5-1-5.

#1 Branch is the only guy who can play the NT spot effectively on this team. Brown or Valentine could take it over if need be but they are not that solid immovable rock in the middle Branch is.
#2 The OLBs who sub as potential DEs are not particularly good. Yes Hightower is great but I don't have a lot of confidence in McClellin or Van Noy to really help there. They should do better in those roles than as true LBs but I don't think they have earned a lot of confidence yet. Langi I really like but he is still a rookie.
#3 MLB is thin. Roberts with pick the wrong lane nearly as much as the right one. If Harris gets an injury and you want to continue running this formation you are forced to put Hightower back there and then the OLBs in this formation become fairly ineffective.

Though I do like the idea I do see some depth concerns. Of course if those pop up they can always go to more of a 4-2 with just a heavy set.

Mostly agree. Branch is a stud. The key will be to get his snap count down by rotating in Guy & maybe Butler in passing situations. Valentine would probably be serviceable but definitely not Branch.

Have to keep in mind that the team rushes 3 more than any time in the NFL and rarely rushes 5+. Van Noy could be a solid starter as the more cover prominent OLB.

MLB definitely a draft need next year if they want Hightower mostly at OLB. Agreed Roberts is very iffy.

 

[Ring 6]

For me, counting how many different defensive formations the Pats deploy with different personnel, and watching how Langi's and Butler's roles develop and evolve over the course of the season will a huge amount of fun. So many of these guys have such versatility beyond their nominal positions, it's difficult to predict how they'll line up or what they'll do when the ball is snapped.

But then, that's the point, I suppose.

For me, Ealy simply looked too indecisive and inconsistent in his last appearance, and just got outplayed by both Langi and Butler.

I don't expect langi and butler to have much of a role. Situational guys and sters seems like the most likely thing. Too many guys ahead of them.

 

[Ring 6]

Just worth pointing out some issues with the 3-3-5 or 5-1-5.

#1 Branch is the only guy who can play the NT spot effectively on this team. Brown or Valentine could take it over if need be but they are not that solid immovable rock in the middle Branch is.
#2 The OLBs who sub as potential DEs are not particularly good. Yes Hightower is great but I don't have a lot of confidence in McClellin or Van Noy to really help there. They should do better in those roles than as true LBs but I don't think they have earned a lot of confidence yet. Langi I really like but he is still a rookie.
#3 MLB is thin. Roberts with pick the wrong lane nearly as much as the right one. If Harris gets an injury and you want to continue running this formation you are forced to put Hightower back there and then the OLBs in this formation become fairly ineffective.

Though I do like the idea I do see some depth concerns. Of course if those pop up they can always go to more of a 4-2 with just a heavy set.

We are playing the same defense as last year, regardless of whether you call it 3-3 or 4-2.
The difference is that it appears Hightower will replace ninkovich (and partially sheard because they combined to play about 100% of the snaps) and Harris will take Hightower role.
Long is replaced by wise and/or guy who actually fit the role better.
The other LB spot will be filled by a group hustvlike last year including mcclellin vannoy and Roberts.

Really very little has changed

 

[BTTA]

Just worth pointing out some issues with the 3-3-5 or 5-1-5.

#1 Branch is the only guy who can play the NT spot effectively on this team. Brown or Valentine could take it over if need be but they are not that solid immovable rock in the middle Branch is.
#2 The OLBs who sub as potential DEs are not particularly good. Yes Hightower is great but I don't have a lot of confidence in McClellin or Van Noy to really help there. They should do better in those roles than as true LBs but I don't think they have earned a lot of confidence yet. Langi I really like but he is still a rookie.
#3 MLB is thin. Roberts with pick the wrong lane nearly as much as the right one. If Harris gets an injury and you want to continue running this formation you are forced to put Hightower back there and then the OLBs in this formation become fairly ineffective.

Though I do like the idea I do see some depth concerns. Of course if those pop up they can always go to more of a 4-2 with just a heavy set.

This is a classic Pats fan problem..."We won't be as good if one of our starters gets hurt!" Yup, pretty unavoidable (one or two will get hurt, and the team won't be as good).

 

[Vatahala]

IMO people are underrating Van Noy and McClellin's ability to learn and prosper.

My hope is Shea can be another Midwestern 260 pound white LB who spent 4 years under performing for another team before thriving with better coaching in NE.

 

[maineman209]

IMO people are underrating Van Noy and McClellin's ability to learn and prosper.

My hope is Shea can be another Midwestern 260 pound white LB who spent 4 years under performing for another team before thriving with better coaching in NE.

At this point, I'm just hoping that McLellin can get healthy.

 

[Ring 6]

IMO people are underrating Van Noy and McClellin's ability to learn and prosper.

My hope is Shea can be another Midwestern 260 pound white LB who spent 4 years under performing for another team before thriving with better coaching in NE.

His pre-patriot career plus first year as a pat dramatically exceed where nink was at this stage.
Of course our of 1000 players that were at ninks stage at that point he is probably the one exception that made it.

 

[Vatahala]

His pre-patriot career plus first year as a pat dramatically exceed where nink was at this stage.
Of course our of 1000 players that were at ninks stage at that point he is probably the one exception that made it.

I was thinking of Vrabel when I made the comparison as Nink spent 3 years with other teams but you have a point.

I'm still wishing lightning can strike 3 times.

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

The Pats used the 3-3-5 (Seen it referred also as the 5-1) front 60% of the time in the playoffs. Chatham has the depth chart down pretty well here:



That formation had a sack % just above 10% in the playoffs. The NFL season leader was around 8%. Also, even though we did not sack Big Ben that 3 man line got good push on a number of plays.

It's pretty smart by BB & co. since we essentially go from the worst depth in the league for a traditional 4-2-5 defense with two DEs to what i would call great depth at both 3-3-5 DE spots, NT/DT & OLB is solid as well.

Harris is key. If he's still good he's a big upgrade over Roberts from last year & allows Hightower to play OLB full time.


When do run DL with two traditional DEs sparingly, my guess is it'll be Flowers & Wise or Butler.

Looking this, next year's draft LB is a huge need, not only for depth as CB/DE/S ...

 

[Ring 6]

Looking this, next year's draft LB is a huge need, not only for depth as CB/DE/S ...

DE may not be a need at all if Wise does what some think he can.

Corner is about the deepest spot on the team as long we figure out how to keep butler.

 

[maineman209]

https://twitter.com/ZackCoxNESN/status/902201897188294656
Three new tryout guys at practice today, apparently. An LB (#46) and two DE (#64 & #66).

 

[n1997y]

I was thinking of Vrabel when I made the comparison as Nink spent 3 years with other teams but you have a point.

I'm still wishing lightning can strike 3 times.

Six times. Also need another lightening strike at Slot receiver. Walker, Edelman, and ???
Maybe seven, if you include Dola.

 

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

DE may not be a need at all if Wise does what some think he can.

Corner is about the deepest spot on the team as long we figure out how to keep butler.

Yes we have a solid trio(IF, big IF Butler stays), but we need depth. Even with Wise and Rivers i would like a veteran sign.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes we have a solid trio(IF, big IF Butler stays), but we need depth. Even with Wise and Rivers i would like a veteran sign.

I was talking about next years draft.

But for this year at DE/WOLB we have flowers Hightower wise mcclellin Van noy and in some situations guy and butler.
Unless you ignore the fact that Nink/sheard is being replaced by a LB we really don't have depth issues at this point as long as we stay healthy.