My biggest takeaway from the Ravens game....

[mihap]

The O-Line is perhaps the most important difference. Last year's O-line had disintegrated by this time last year, and it was not only injuries, it was a lack of cohesion and execution. And then in the AFCC Stork kept lifting his head pre-snap presenting a tell, which Von Miller keyed upon. It was bad enough to send DeGuigliermo packing. Which, of course, led to the biggest difference maker, Scarnecchia, returning.

I know the Scar returning is important, and Stork signaling Von Miller too, but i bet if they would be healthy like this year unit, game in Denver wouldnt happen and probably they d won SB and DEguillermo wouldnt get fired. I am not saying that Gugs is good coach, just have a felling that Oline health was major factor in bad games. On the other hand . Its better now that Scar is back so he can teach those guys and hope some other young coach how to be great like he is.
This year is difference even without Gronk they can run and teams have to be prepared for run. Last year in Denver, they werent able to run the ball and it was easy for Denver to defend only pass.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah, you are right. Dak Prescott is the same as Brady.

...and Brady does not have DALs o-line, Ez-El, Dez Bryant or Jason Whitten.

What is your point?

 

[Ross12]

@Ian , @Ross12 , @ashley1992 - Can I post screenshots of the game? If not please delete them.


I was watching the All 22. (Just got it because I had to know )

On the deep ball in which Edelman stopped running Weddle is watching Brady's eyes. He ends up in a completely empty part of the field. Weddle wanted to cut off the underneath route. Brady looked him into no man's land.



There's a couple of other plays in which Brady moves Weddle by looking him off.

This is the Hogan TD. Brady moves Weddle towards Edelman with a quick look to his left. Weddle bites. Hogan blows by Elam (who slipped but after Hogan blew by him) and Weddle was out of the picture.




They matched up Edelman against multiple coverages which got different looks from the Ravens. With the exception of smith Edelman was pretty much able to get open against most coverage. Dropped balls plus a batted ball in the red zone hurt but I think they got to see what they wanted from the coverage.

Interestingly the Hogan TD had Elam drop down into coverage leaving Weddle to cover the top but he was too busy watching Brady.

I think an All 22 shot is fine but I'm not completely sure. Hopefully our proprietor can answer more definitevely

Also, great post.

 

[SomePatsFan13]

The O-Line is perhaps the most important difference. Last year's O-line had disintegrated by this time last year, and it was not only injuries, it was a lack of cohesion and execution. And then in the AFCC Stork kept lifting his head pre-snap presenting a tell, which Von Miller keyed upon. It was bad enough to send DeGuigliermo packing. Which, of course, led to the biggest difference maker, Scarnecchia, returning.

This is one of the most amazing things I've ever read about our team.

You know, it's things like this that reminds me why I love football and talking about football with football guys. That's absolutely nuts that Von was able to pick that up, and then put it into practice.

 

[aluminum seats]

Stats without context are pretty much useless. As I said, Edelman is going to be Brady's primary read with Gronk gone on most plays, similar to how it was with Brown and Welker. Because he gets open quicker than most other WR's in the league, he's going to get the ball. Brady is still spreading the ball around but Gronk is gone now which is where a large percentage of Edelman's targets would have gone.

Nope, it's too many targets. Just looking at the Ravens & SF games, Edelman has 32 targets, with less than 50% completions. That would put him on pace for 256 targets for the year, or about 100 more than his career high, and roughly the same number of targets that Edelman and Gronk had combined in 2014. You don't need more context to know that's too many targets, even before you consider that the rest of the entire receiving corp had 3 incompletions combined against the Ravens.

Brady's favorite receiver should continue to be the open one, not the primary read.

 

[n1997y]

This is one of the most amazing things I've ever read about our team.

You know, it's things like this that reminds me why I love football and talking about football with football guys. That's absolutely nuts that Von was able to pick that up, and then put it into practice.

And just as nuts that Goog didn't. maybe moreso, Goog is on the sideline with another set of eyes in the skybox to help. Von is on the field with lots of other stuff to worry about.

 

[Kontradiction]

Nope, it's too many targets. Just looking at the Ravens & SF games, Edelman has 32 targets, with less than 50% completions. That would put him on pace for 256 targets for the year, or about 100 more than his career high, and roughly the same number of targets that Edelman and Gronk had combined in 2014. You don't need more context to know that's too many targets, even before you consider that the rest of the entire receiving corp had 3 incompletions combined against the Ravens.

Brady's favorite receiver should continue to be the open one, not the primary read.

His favorite receiver IS the open one. Edelman gets open quicker than anyone else on the team, so the ball is going to go his way more than anyone else. Further, the other two options are still getting the ball in spite of the fact that one is in his first year in the system and the other is in his first year in the league altogether. Even still, they rang up 30 points on the best defense in the NFL coming into Monday night so I'm not exactly sure why you're complaining here. Do you believe you can see the field better than Brady can?

Let's open up the dialogue for discussion here a bit. Since your assertion is that Brady is ignoring open guys in favor of Edelman, whom he is "locking onto", give us specific examples of that happening just from the MNF alone. Give us the quarter, time on the clock, and down and distance on top of which receiver he ignored and the route that receiver was running if you can. If you've come to this conclusion based on watching some sort of game film and can provide pics of said events happening, please feel free to share those as well as they will add to the conversation. It's always possible that I'm missing something and I welcome better information. However, if Brady is flat out ignoring other open receivers in favor of force feeding the ball to ANYONE on a regular basis, it might be time to move on from him and start the Garoppolo era.

 

[aluminum seats]

His favorite receiver IS the open one. Edelman gets open quicker than anyone else on the team, so the ball is going to go his way more than anyone else. Further, the other two options are still getting the ball in spite of the fact that one is in his first year in the system and the other is in his first year in the league altogether. Even still, they rang up 30 points on the best defense in the NFL coming into Monday night so I'm not exactly sure why you're complaining here. Do you believe you can see the field better than Brady can?

Let's open up the dialogue for discussion here a bit. Since your assertion is that Brady is ignoring open guys in favor of Edelman, whom he is "locking onto", give us specific examples of that happening just from the MNF alone. Give us the quarter, time on the clock, and down and distance on top of which receiver he ignored and the route that receiver was running if you can. If you've come to this conclusion based on watching some sort of game film and can provide pics of said events happening, please feel free to share those as well as they will add to the conversation. It's always possible that I'm missing something and I welcome better information. However, if Brady is flat out ignoring other open receivers in favor of force feeding the ball to ANYONE on a regular basis, it might be time to move on from him and start the Garoppolo era.

As much as I appreciate the assignment, I spend too much time on this as it is.

I will address the first point about what the complaint is. Brady is great, and the offense is playing well. But as we know, it only takes one loss to ruin everything. Against the horrible 49ers, the Pats were up a FG in the 4th quarter. The Ravens game was bizarre-o world, but another TD would have made even that craziness meaningless. Point being, if something seems like an issue, why not discuss it.

I don't think saying Brady is "ignoring open receivers" is the way to put it. I think he understandably has a lot of confidence in Edelman, has won with him before, and feels comfortable going to him quickly. This is probably compounded somewhat by the offensive line problems last year--throw it now or be killed!

But bottom line, at a certain point stats aren't "meaningless." The record for most targets in a season is 208. Recent targets to Edelman would obliterate that record, by about 25%. This on a team that has many other weapons. Again, if it needs to be said, BRADY IS AWESOME. But I don't really get why you're arguing this point so aggressively.

 

[Kontradiction]

As much as I appreciate the assignment, I spend too much time on this as it is.

I will address the first point about what the complaint is. Brady is great, and the offense is playing well. But as we know, it only takes one loss to ruin everything. Against the horrible 49ers, the Pats were up a FG in the 4th quarter. The Ravens game was bizarre-o world, but another TD would have made even that craziness meaningless. Point being, if something seems like an issue, why not discuss it.

I don't think saying Brady is "ignoring open receivers" is the way to put it. I think he understandably has a lot of confidence in Edelman, has won with him before, and feels comfortable going to him quickly. This is probably compounded somewhat by the offensive line problems last year--throw it now or be killed!

But bottom line, at a certain point stats aren't "meaningless." The record for most targets in a season is 208. Recent targets to Edelman would obliterate that record, by about 25%. This on a team that has many other weapons. Again, if it needs to be said, BRADY IS AWESOME. But I don't really get why you're arguing this point so aggressively.

1. I never said stats were meaningless. I called stats without context useless. There's a difference. Assigning the former to me is a red herring.

2. By saying that Brady is "locking onto" Edelman, you are, in a sense, stating that he is ignoring other open receivers in favor of getting the ball to Edelman. Otherwise, if other receivers aren't open at the time that he needs to get rid of the ball and Edelman is, then it's not "locking onto" Edelman. It's trying to make a completion to the open man.

3. It's folly to expect the percentage in targets to Edelman to stay the same as it has been lately. Sometimes that's game plan dependent and other times it's dependent by who is on the field. I don't think the percentage will stay the same when Lewis gets an uptick in snaps or when Amendola is back on the field, just to give you two examples.

In the end, his favorite guy is still the open man. As I said, Edelman gets open quicker than anyone else on the field. While that's the case and while Hogan and Mitchell are still learning the offense, he'll probably get the ball first. So, unless you have specific examples that you can provide me where Brady looks away from an open Hogan/Mitchell/White/etc. in favor of a covered or not really open Edelman, I think we may be done here.

 

[aluminum seats]

1. I never said stats were meaningless. I called stats without context useless. There's a difference. Assigning the former to me is a red herring.

2. By saying that Brady is "locking onto" Edelman, you are, in a sense, stating that he is ignoring other open receivers in favor of getting the ball to Edelman. Otherwise, if other receivers aren't open at the time that he needs to get rid of the ball and Edelman is, then it's not "locking onto" Edelman. It's trying to make a completion to the open man.

3. It's folly to expect the percentage in targets to Edelman to stay the same as it has been lately. Sometimes that's game plan dependent and other times it's dependent by who is on the field. I don't think the percentage will stay the same when Lewis gets an uptick in snaps or when Amendola is back on the field, just to give you two examples.

In the end, his favorite guy is still the open man. As I said, Edelman gets open quicker than anyone else on the field. While that's the case and while Hogan and Mitchell are still learning the offense, he'll probably get the ball first. So, unless you have specific examples that you can provide me where Brady looks away from an open Hogan/Mitchell/White/etc. in favor of a covered or not really open Edelman, I think we may be done here.

--Didn't think you'd repeat the "specific examples" bit, which is one of the more annoying things that people do on this board. You say that no other receiver was a viable option for Edelman's 15 targets. Please provide details on each target, along with screen shots and complete annotation, for each. Complete this within the next hour. I mean, c'mon, eff outta here with that.

--I think saying it's "folly" to expect the targets to Edelman to continue at this rate indicates a level of agreement that the current rate is excessive. Brady has plenty of weapons now (Amendola played in the 49ers game), so while Lewis targets should increase, White can get more than 3.

--Agreed that there's little point in continuing, but I'd just add that it would be a good idea for Edelman's sake to reduce the targets a bit. He's obviously hugely important, let's not get him killed.

 

[Tony2046]

@Ian , @Ross12 , @ashley1992 - Can I post screenshots of the game? If not please delete them.


I was watching the All 22. (Just got it because I had to know )

On the deep ball in which Edelman stopped running Weddle is watching Brady's eyes. He ends up in a completely empty part of the field. Weddle wanted to cut off the underneath route. Brady looked him into no man's land.



There's a couple of other plays in which Brady moves Weddle by looking him off.

This is the Hogan TD. Brady moves Weddle towards Edelman with a quick look to his left. Weddle bites. Hogan blows by Elam (who slipped but after Hogan blew by him) and Weddle was out of the picture.




They matched up Edelman against multiple coverages which got different looks from the Ravens. With the exception of smith Edelman was pretty much able to get open against most coverage. Dropped balls plus a batted ball in the red zone hurt but I think they got to see what they wanted from the coverage.

Interestingly the Hogan TD had Elam drop down into coverage leaving Weddle to cover the top but he was too busy watching Brady.

Edit: I might be wrong that Weddle bit on the Edelman route. He may have bit on the fake hand off to blount. Or both. Not sure. He jumps forward twice. Once on the fake hand off and again towards Edelman.

Edit to my previous post: I might be wrong that Weddle bit on the Edelman route. He may have bit on the fake hand off to blount. Or both. Not sure. He jumps forward twice. Once on the fake hand off and again towards Edelman.

I think he was out of position to begin with.

A football guru's input would be nice.

 

[Kontradiction]

--Didn't think you'd repeat the "specific examples" bit, which is one of the more annoying things that people do on this board. You say that no other receiver was a viable option for Edelman's 15 targets. Please provide details on each target, along with screen shots and complete annotation, for each. Complete this within the next hour. I mean, c'mon, eff outta here with that.

Why wouldn't I? You made a claim and I'm asking you to back it up. I countered that claim with offering reasons why he would throw the ball to Edelman. I'm backed by the GOAT when it comes to reading defenses and reading the field. I don't care when you offer up evidence supporting your claim (I'm not planning on going anywhere), but if you have access to such information that backs it, I would love to have my eyes opened. Hence my asking for it. I don't care if you post pics or not. I only said they would be helpful in advancing in the conversation. I assumed when you made the claim, you had specific examples in mind. If you give me the quarter and time, I can find them myself.

--I think saying it's "folly" to expect the targets to Edelman to continue at this rate indicates a level of agreement that the current rate is excessive. Brady has plenty of weapons now (Amendola played in the 49ers game), so while Lewis targets should increase, White can get more than 3.

No, and that's a borderline straw man. It's folly to expect the game plan not to change and it's folly not to expect other receiving options to either get their snap counts increased or return from injury.

--Agreed that there's little point in continuing, but I'd just add that it would be a good idea for Edelman's sake to reduce the targets a bit. He's obviously hugely important, let's not get him killed.

If Edelman is open when Brady looks his way, he will continue to receive the ball. If another receiver is open on a deeper or better route (ala Hogan and Mitchell TD's Monday night), they will get it. Brady is not locking onto a receiver for the hell of it. If he is, it's time to trade him and see what kind of draft picks they can get in return because that means that he's essentially breaking the cardinal rule of quarterbacking.

 

[Kontradiction]

Edit to my previous post: I might be wrong that Weddle bit on the Edelman route. He may have bit on the fake hand off to blount. Or both. Not sure. He jumps forward twice. Once on the fake hand off and again towards Edelman.

I think he was out of position to begin with.

A football guru's input would be nice.

If you have access to the All-22, are you seeing anything that backs the claim of aluminum seats? Are there any plays you see in which Brady is consistently locking onto Edelman while other receivers are open?

 

[Kontradiction]

This may also be helpful to you, @aluminum seats...

Bill Belichick highlights Tom Brady's mastery at reading coverage

For example, while many saw running back James White's 61-yard catch-and-run play as a fine individual effort by White (it was), more easily overlooked was Brady’s decision-making to get him the ball based on the way the Baltimore Ravens defended the play.

The Ravens double-covered the left side with a safety over the top, which essentially eliminated receivers Chris Hogan and Malcolm Mitchell. They also doubled receiver Julian Edelman in the right slot, taking him out of the play.

That left tight end Martellus Bennett (short out-breaking route to sideline) and White (slant) in one-on-one matchups.

“Tom, of course, reads the coverage cleanly, gets White on the slant, who gets a step on [linebacker C.J.] Mosley, and turns it into a long play; good open-field running there by James to turn a short slant into a long play that sets up a scoring opportunity for us,” Belichick said on the breakdown.

Other options were open while Edelman was being doubled and Brady went elsewhere.

 

[Tony2046]

@KontradictioN , @aluminum seats - Lucky for you both I've just taken my adderall meds and am stuck on the All 22's.

Screenshots of all the Edelman Targets right at the time Brady throws the ball.

1. No one is open but Brady likes the matchup on JE. Incomplete. Note: JE is breaking towards the right sideline at the 37.



2. Brady is flushed out of the pocket and tosses it up down the sideline. Incomplete. Note: JE is running up the left sideline.



3. Brady looks right then back to Edelman. Bennett does get open but after Brady looks towards JE. Incomplete (Dropped). Note: Edelman is crossing at the first down (48 yard line) marker from the top.



4. Edelman is wide open.



5. Brady throws to Edelman in the Endzone. Incomplete. JE slows down. Interesting play. Mitchell comes open a half a second later across the middle. JE does get separation at the 10 yard line. Brady threw it into the Endzone and JE slowed down at the 5. Not sure why. Again I think Brady liked the match up and the coverage. If Edelman had kept going he would have had a shot at a TD.



6. Brady looks right and back to center and sees JE open. Complete.



7. This was just a quick short pass. Bennett was open as well. Complete. Maybe a matchup against their rookie Young #36.



8. Brady never looks left. JE is open. Incomplete. (the pass both teams struggle to recover possible fumble)



I'll post the rest in the next post.

 

[aluminum seats]

Brady is not locking onto a receiver for the hell of it. If he is, it's time to trade him and see what kind of draft picks they can get in return

Silly suggestions are usually a sign that a conversation has reached a productive end. Brady can be locking onto a receiver a bit--can have a minor issue that maybe warrants attention--without saying it's time to trade him. Obviously.

 

[aluminum seats]

@KontradictioN , @aluminum seats - Lucky for you both I've just taken my adderall meds and am stuck on the All 22's.

Screenshots of all the Edelman Targets right at the time Brady throws the ball.

1. No one is open but Brady likes the matchup on JE. Incomplete. Note: JE is breaking towards the right sideline at the 37.



2. Brady is flushed out of the pocket and tosses it up down the sideline. Incomplete. Note: JE is running up the left sideline.



3. Brady looks right then back to Edelman. Bennett does get open but after Brady looks towards JE. Incomplete (Dropped). Note: Edelman is crossing at the first down (48 yard line) marker from the top.



4. Edelman is wide open.



5. Brady throws to Edelman in the Endzone. Incomplete. JE slows down. Interesting play. Mitchell comes open a half a second later across the middle. JE does get separation at the 10 yard line. Brady threw it into the Endzone and JE slowed down at the 5. Not sure why. Again I think Brady liked the match up and the coverage. If Edelman had kept going he would have had a shot at a TD.



6. Brady looks right and back to center and sees JE open. Complete.



7. This was just a quick short pass. Bennett was open as well. Complete. Maybe a matchup against their rookie Young #36.



8. Brady never looks left. JE is open. Incomplete. (the pass both teams struggle to recover possible fumble)



I'll post the rest in the next post.

You're a maniac! Got to go but will check these out later...(although, disagree right away on #1! Incomplete to Edelman and there's an open receiver in the middle of the field at the 26.)

 

[Nunchucks]

First picture)Another receiver was open on a short crossing pattern.
Second picture) There was a receiver running down the middle of the field that was open for a big gain.

on five, I think Brady was being tackled or just got out of a tackle
The others are fine.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I thought that to but wonder if that's part of the game plan. Minus the drops that is.

Do the plays to Edelman setup Mitchell and Hogan later in the game?

This is how I see it as well, Brady is setting teams up. He will throw under them and move the chains and force teams to come up to stop it, then he exploits the openings for big plays.

 

[Kontradiction]

Silly suggestions are usually a sign that a conversation has reached a productive end. Brady can be locking onto a receiver a bit--can have a minor issue that maybe warrants attention--without saying it's time to trade him. Obviously.

It isn't a silly suggestion at all. Consistently locking onto reads or receivers who aren't open instead of other receivers who are is #1 on the list of things an NFL quarterback should not do. It results in costly INT's. If that's the case, Brady should be gone. Luckily for us, it isn't and that's been proven to you here in this thread by me, the pics above, and the link I provided to you where Belichick also breaks down a couple of big plays from the game film. Further, Brady proves it himself by his numbers. But you may be right that the conversation has reached a productive end. Instead of digging your heels in, you may want to reexamine your original stance on the topic.