Caldwell or Gaffney - Who would you rather have?

[pats1]

I don't really get it.

The Pro-Caldwell side likes to assume that Gaffney just had a "fluke" 3 playoff games in a row, yet there is absolutely no proof that his play could not continue to be good.

Yet this side make the bold move of assuming that Caldwell's 2 enormous choke drops aren't ever going to happen again.

Can you please remind if Caldwell is still on the Patriots roster? Can you please remind me who makes these decisions?

The bottom line? The people who make the decisions (you know, those that have brought 3 Lombardi trophies to Foxboro) don't make their decisions based off such a small sample size and try to extrapolate it to Keegsian proportions.

 

[Keegs]

Can you please remind if Caldwell is still on the Patriots roster? Can you please remind me who makes these decisions?

The bottom line? The people who make the decisions (you know, those that have brought 3 Lombardi trophies to Foxboro) don't make their decisions based off such a small sample size and try to extrapolate it to Keegsian proportions.

Do you think we would have lost that game if he caught both balls?

unfortunately the AFC championship game is not a best of 7 series. It's one game. and Caldwell stunk it up royally. I think they have to factor that sample size in, and it has to be small.
But if you look at the entire playoffs, GAffney did outplay Caldwell in all 3 games.

So how many playoff games does Caldwell have to suck in before it's a big enough sample size for you?

Maybe if they did make their decisions off "small" sample sizes and extrapolate (hehe) them into Keegsian porportions, this team would be better off.

 

[Keegs]

I can't believe that Gaffney is leading in this poll. Shows you that the collective intelligence of this board is not very high.

wow i missed this gem.

Hell, with an argument this strong i think the Gaffney side should just probably give up.

how on earth can we compete with YOU?

 

[Jimke]

Caldwell gets a bum rap as scapegoat for the Pats loss to the Colts.

The entire Pats defense shared the goat's horns for that one.

 

[pats1]

But if you look at the entire playoffs, Gaffney did outplay Caldwell in all 3 games.

And what exactly does that mean in terms of 2007?

Compare that to what Caldwell's entire season and Gaffney's entire season mean.

Hate to break it to you, but the Patriots go off the largest body of work they can find, not two stupid little plays that give Keegs nightmares.

 

[Rob0729]

You are defending Caldwell.

He makes those 2 big catches, Pats have another ring simple as that.

But I shouldn't be defending Gaffney now should I?

The Pro-Caldwell side continues to amaze me.

P.S. You do realize that if it wasn't for Gaffney bailing out your buddy, he would look like an even bigger choke right?

What a false assumption. You have no idea if Caldwell makes those two catches, the Pats go to the Super Bowl. The first dropped catch was inconsequential since we scored on the next play. Caldwell's second drop was not guaranteed to be a TD by any stretch of the imagination and we still had time to still win that game.

By your logic, you can argue that it wasn't for Brady we could be four time Super Bowl champions. It was stupid passes by Brady that ended our last two playoff runs.

I have said this in the past and I will say it again. There were other players who "choked" just as bad or worse than Caldwell in that game. Yet, it seems Caldwell is the only one that people focus on and refuse to let up on. Two drops by a WR in a game is not a good thing, but is far from the worst offense committed by a player even in that game. Maroney's muffed hand off (which gets ignored because a lucky bounce turned disaster into 7 points), Brady's interception where he looked down Troy Brown the entire time, Troy Brown's pass interference, and Heath Evans' 12th man in the huddle were worse mistakes than Caldwell's dropped passes.

 

[Rob0729]

Do you think we would have lost that game if he caught both balls?

unfortunately the AFC championship game is not a best of 7 series. It's one game. and Caldwell stunk it up royally. I think they have to factor that sample size in, and it has to be small.
But if you look at the entire playoffs, GAffney did outplay Caldwell in all 3 games.

So how many playoff games does Caldwell have to suck in before it's a big enough sample size for you?

Maybe if they did make their decisions off "small" sample sizes and extrapolate (hehe) them into Keegsian porportions, this team would be better off.

I don't think we would have neccessarily won the AFC Championship if Caldwell caught both passes. You can throw out the first pass all together since we scored a TD the very next play. I don't think Caldwell or virtually any other WR would have scored on the other catch because there was too much room between where he would have caught the ball and the end zone. If Brady called the same play on the next play (not a huge stretch since it was only about a 15 yard pass) and looked down Troy Brown like he did, it wouldn't have mattered.

Caldwell could have easily played like he did and we could have won handily if we had an answer for Dallas Clark or if we didn't have some bonehead penalties that killed offensive drives. Why do you put all the blame on Caldwell where you can point to about 1/2 dozen to a dozen individual plays where if they went the other way, we might have won the game and only one of those plays was Caldwell's.

As for how many games does Caldwell have to suck in, I would at least wait for two. He didn't suck in the first two games and had a better playoffs than Marvin Harrison did.

 

[Keegs]

And what exactly does that mean in terms of 2007?

Compare that to what Caldwell's entire season and Gaffney's entire season mean.

Hate to break it to you, but the Patriots go off the largest body of work they can find, not two stupid little plays that give Keegs nightmares.

Fair enough. I understand what you are saying. But what team will do, and what this Pro-Caldwell side refuses to do, is take into account how long each player was on the team and how much time they had with the team.

I guess we'll have to see what happens.

I'll just pray to god that I don't have to see him in a big game.

Too bad we can't trade him and a high pick for Polamalu, sucks the Steelers are resigning him.

 

[Rob0729]

fair enough. I understand what you are saying. But what team will do, and what this Pro-Caldwell side refuses to do, is take into account how long each player was on the team and how much time they had with the team.

I guess we'll have to see what happens.

I'll just pray to god that I don't have to see him in a big game.
too bad we can't trade him and a high pick for Polamalu, sucks the Steelers are resigning him

You are talking about one of many different factors that the Pats will use to evaluate Caldwell vs. Gaffney. They will look at a lot things including (but not limited to): Knowledge of the offense, confort level with Brady, how a player complements the other receivers on the roster, work ethic, ability to play special teams (since neither will start at least not after Stallworth, Moss, and Welker get acclimated to the offense in the first month of the season), etc.

If you think that Belichick is going to cut Caldwell just because of two dropped balls in the AFCCG, you are probably going to be disapointed. If he is cut, it is because of a number of different reasons and his two drops will be low on the list. Personally, I think Caldwell and Gaffney will both make the final roster although one or both could get cut as the season goes along.

 

[Keegs]

You are talking about one of many different factors that the Pats will use to evaluate Caldwell vs. Gaffney. They will look at a lot things including (but not limited to): Knowledge of the offense, confort level with Brady, how a player complements the other receivers on the roster, work ethic, ability to play special teams (since neither will start at least not after Stallworth, Moss, and Welker get acclimated to the offense in the first month of the season), etc.

If you think that Belichick is going to cut Caldwell just because of two dropped balls in the AFCCG, you are probably going to be disapointed. If he is cut, it is because of a number of different reasons and his two drops will be low on the list. Personally, I think Caldwell and Gaffney will both make the final roster although one or both could get cut as the season goes along.

I agree for the most part but i don't think his 2 drops are going to be that low on the list. That was a huge screw up.

I didn't think he was going to be cut. I wanted him cut, but that has changed in the last few months.

I really want him traded. I think it would be a fantastic move. Get rid of him (we don't need him anymore), and get value.

And if he's our number 4 or 5, then so be it.

 

[satz]

P.S. You do realize that if it wasn't for Gaffney bailing out your buddy, he would look like an even bigger choke right?

I arguing the guy who cost us a critical first down in the 4th quater leading to a field is being defended by you..........how many critical first down penalty you need before you will stop defending him.

some say 1 first down would have won the game wiell above one would have sealed the game if not for his dumb penalty.

 

[pats1]

If you're wondering, it took 11 seconds for either a certain Tom Brady or anyone on the Colts defense to see Caldwell - who was jumping around and waving his hands - open.

And I wouldn't give any guarantee at all that he would have scored on that one. Graham was the lone blocker in the area, going up against 2-3 DBs going straight for Caldwell.

And besides, that was on first down. Here's how that play sequence went:

1-10-IND 13 (8:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 80-T.Brown to IND 6 for 7 yards (26-K.Hayden, 21-B.Sanders).
PENALTY on NE-10-J.Gaffney, Illegal Shift, 5 yards, enforced at IND 13 - No Play.

Gaffney negates a play that would have put the Pats within Corey distance.

1-15-IND 18 (8:38) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 87-R.Caldwell [58-G.Brackett].

Because of Brady's (un)awareness, Colts defenders have time to close in on Caldwell, who drops what probably would have been a 5-10 yard gain.

2-15-IND 18 (8:34) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 44-H.Evans to IND 10 for 8 yards (94-R.Morris, 59-C.June).

Under pressure from Mathis, who beat Kaczur on the edge, Brady has to dump it off to Evans.

3-7-IND 10 (7:50) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 87-R.Caldwell.

Under an all-out blitz, Brady lobs the ball over Caldwell's head in the end zone. Should have been pass inteference on Hayden, who turns his back to the pass and shoves Caldwell a few times in the chest. Caldwell, falling backwards, can only get fingertips on the pass before Hayden tackles him. Caldwell clutches his left hamstring walking off.

4-7-IND 10 (7:45) 3-S.Gostkowski 28 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-16-M.Cassel.

NE 31 IND 28, 6 plays, 33 yards, 2:44 drive, 7:18 elapsed

 

[Rob0729]

I agree for the most part but i don't think his 2 drops are going to be that low on the list. That was a huge screw up.

I didn't think he was going to be cut. I wanted him cut, but that has changed in the last few months.

I really want him traded. I think it would be a fantastic move. Get rid of him (we don't need him anymore), and get value.

And if he's our number 4 or 5, then so be it.

It was no bigger of a screw up than what Maroney, Brady, Evans, or a few other players had in that game. In fact, I think one of those passes had some to do with Brady throwing the ball in the wrong spot making Caldwell having to stop in his tracks. Caldwell should have probably caught it, but Brady helped to make the catch harder than it actually looked.

As for trading Caldwell, I doubt he has much trade value. WRs who aren't in the first or second tier WRs do not have much trade value. It isn't all that hard to find a guy like Caldwell. Stallworth was traded last year for a conditional 4th and a back up LB. Eric Moulds was traded for a fifth rounder. I doubt Caldwell could generate much interest in a trade for one relatively good year.

 

[Keegs]

It was no bigger of a screw up than what Maroney, Brady, Evans, or a few other players had in that game. In fact, I think one of those passes had some to do with Brady throwing the ball in the wrong spot making Caldwell having to stop in his tracks. Caldwell should have probably caught it, but Brady helped to make the catch harder than it actually looked.

As for trading Caldwell, I doubt he has much trade value. WRs who aren't in the first or second tier WRs do not have much trade value. It isn't all that hard to find a guy like Caldwell. Stallworth was traded last year for a conditional 4th and a back up LB. Eric Moulds was traded for a fifth rounder. I doubt Caldwell could generate much interest in a trade for one relatively good year.

ill take a 6th rounder for him and a bag of Jabanero Doritos. those things are fantastic.

 

[sieglo]

wow i missed this gem.

Hell, with an argument this strong i think the Gaffney side should just probably give up.

Yes, you should. 2006 stats for regular and postseason:

Caldwell: 77 catches, 936 yards, long 62 yards, 5 TDs, playing against the oppositions #1 corner.

Gaffney: 32 catches, 386 yards, long 33 yards, 3 TD, playing against the opposition's #2 or #3 corner.

 

[Keegs]

If you're wondering, it took 11 seconds for either a certain Tom Brady or anyone on the Colts defense to see Caldwell - who was jumping around and waving his hands - open.

And I wouldn't give any guarantee at all that he would have scored on that one. Graham was the lone blocker in the area, going up against 2-3 DBs going straight for Caldwell.

buddy, i know i know. Caldwell wasn't the only one that made mistakes that game but if he catches that ball, i believe we win.

 

[Keegs]

Yes, you should. 2006 stats for regular and postseason:

Caldwell: 77 catches, 936 yards, long 62 yards, 5 TDs, playing against the oppositions #1 corner.

Gaffney: 32 catches, 386 yards, long 33 yards, 3 TD, playing against the opposition's #2 or #3 corner.

pats1, tell this guy to just stop. this is ridiculous.

Gaffney started 6 regular season games, Caldwell started 14.

Caldwell was with the team the entire season while Gaffney showed up in October.

Knock off the crap.

 

[sieglo]

pats1, tell this guy to just stop. this is ridiculous.

Gaffney started 6 regular season games, Caldwell started 14.
Caldwell was with the team the entire season while Gaffney showed up in October.

knock off the crap.

So what does that tell us?

- We know Caldwell can handle the rigors of an entire season.
- We've established a consistent level of performance from Caldwell.
- Caldwell has been in the system longer.

Gaffney played 11 games for the Pats; Caldwell played 16. Caldwell's average performance is considerably higher.

You are over reacting to one dropped pass like a kid crying over spilled milk. Do you want to cut Brady for throwing the season ending interception two years in a row? Stop being a baby and look at this rationally.

I can understand wanting to trade Caldwell instead of Gaffney. The reason to do this is that any rational team in the NFL will value Caldwell more than Gaffney.

 

[pats1]

Oh, and in case you were also wondering, Caldwell's other drop came the play before Gaffney's back-of-the-end zone catch. So if you're trying to make an argument that Caldwell's drop there cost the Patriots the game, it's absolutely pointless.

And as far as that actual play goes, it was a hook-and-out pattern from Caldwell, who beat Hayden inside initially. Hayden then, past 5 yards, decided to grab Caldwell's jersey from behind to slow him down. When Caldwell has Hayden beat in the end zone, Brady probably could have him him right there, but by design the route was elongated. So when Caldwell slows down to make his turn towards the sidelines, Hayden again grabs hold of Caldwell's jersey from behind for a good second or two, and then loses his balance as Caldwell completes the turn and accelerates. The pass goes right through Caldwell's hands and nails him in the groin. Ouch.

 

[pats1]

pats1, tell this guy to just stop. this is ridiculous.

Gaffney started 6 regular season games, Caldwell started 14.

Caldwell was with the team the entire season while Gaffney showed up in October.

Knock off the crap.

OK, if you want to play that game:

Gaffney was in camp and the preseason with the Eagles, so it wasn't like he came off his couch when he was signed in October. Keep in mind he was signed just after the Pats beat the Dolphins in Week 5, and the Pats had a bye week in Week 6. So he had an extra week to prepare. Gaffney's first game as a Patriot was against the Bills in Week 7, or Caldwell's 6th game of the season.

Here are the numbers for Caldwell's 6th, 7th, and 8th games of the season, all of which he started:

6th: 5 catches, 22 yards, 0 touchdowns.
7th: 7 catches, 84 yards, 1 touchdown.
8th: 1 catch, 21 yards, 0 touchdowns.

Here are the numbers for Gaffney's 6th, 7th, and 8th games of the season, the first one of which he started:

6th: 0 catches, 0 yards, 0 touchdowns.
7th: 1 catch, 28 yards, 0 touchdowns.
8th: 0 catches, 0 yards, 0 touchdowns.

Since Gaffney didn't start those last two games, let's go 2 more games further on each:

Caldwell:
9th: 9 catches, 90 yards, 1 touchdown.
10th: 3 catches, 70 yards, 1 touchdown.

Gaffney:
9th: 1 catch, 6 yards, 1 touchdown.
10th: 3 catches, 26 yards, 0 touchdowns.

Also keep in mind Caldwell would have been facing #1 CBs, while Gaffney would have been up against #2s or #3s.