Troy Brown as Assistant Coach and Possible Mid-Year WR

[MoLewisrocks]

STOP MAKING STUFF UP AND READ THE CBA! The penalties apply to undisclosed contract provisions. As the original poster described them "wink/nod/understanding"s. The provisions requiring players to put in promotional appearances are disclosed in the agreements in black and white. The entire dollar amount of the agreements counts against the salary cap (including any money related to promotional appearances).

If the Patriots had told Troy Brown's agent "sign this deal, and we'll get Dunkin Donuts to give you an extra $X", it would have been a blatant violation. They didn't (I hope).

Nothing you have cited precludes a team from signing a FA player to a coaching deal because there is no roster spot for him - and later signing him to a player contract because a vacancy opens up and they need a street FA. Now maybe there is a rule that the player has to formally retire (file his paperwork) before he can be hired as an NFL coach, and then petition the commissioner to rescind his retirement before he can be signed to a player contract again - but if so that is likely a doable procedural process.

Side deals designed to circumvent the salary cap are those that promised some sort of deferred or unspecified compensation while the player was employed as an active roster player by the team. Those are the kinds of things the Broncos have been fined and penalized for draft wise twice since 2000. They had side deals with several active players to defer compensation with interest because they were cash strapped when building their new stadium. When the irregularities were uncovered, 3 years and a couple of superbowls won later, they lost some draft picks. The team was also fined, but those who were supposedly responsible were no longer employed by the team (players or management specifically involved, apparently) and nothing of significance (suspension) happened to Shanny or Bowlen the GM as a result.

Do you think that Brady's compensation from deals he is required to persue with team sponsors first before seeking other endorsement opportunities count against the cap...of course they don't. And don't look now but what they did with Troy was basically what you characterized it as. They told him $X was all they could pay him, but they put sponsor advertisers in touch with him who told him what they could offer him if he were still a player here. That was two years ago, and nobody's been executed as a result. The team controls who gets the plum endorsement gigs, and while some guys don't like that life goes on penalty free because as is the case in most enterprises the guy who gets the gig is highly identifiable in line with the business plan most NFL teams employ to help market their product via their most valued and hopefully stable players.

The CBA and the salary cap rules within it only applies to players - not coaches. If Troy believes he can play he will want to be compensated in the $1M+ range. He has never been a veteran minumum player, and I doubt he would play for it now. The Patriots would never hire Troy as an assistant coach at anything approaching even veteran minimum player compensation because that would throw their entire support staff salary structure out of whack.

This was a silly question with a simple answer (that doesn't in any way involve the CBA) asked for the umpteenth time over the last 3-4 years by people who apparently assume Troy can't make the squad for age or numbers reasons. Yet he continues to, and this season Bill has stated in advance of a contract that he expects him to again in 2007 - barring only the kind of unforseen circumstance (knee isn't healing) that would keep him off anyone elses roster as well.

It's amazing what can trigger a pissing contest here when two tactless egos collide. You have managed to make an ugly mountain out of a mere molehill.

 

[Patjew]

Hey, Patjew. Just remember, if you accept a coaching position you shouldn't come back and play later *wink*.

If the Pats hired me as a coach they SHOULD be fined... for hiring a coach that doesn't know squat about football except for what he reads on patsfans.com.

 

[Born_a_Patriot]

If the Pats hired me as a coach they SHOULD be fined... for hiring a coach that doesn't know squat about football except for what he reads on patsfans.com.

Patjew you're crazy.... LOL

 

[Vern]

Nothing you have cited precludes a team from signing a FA player to a coaching deal because there is no roster spot for him - and later signing him to a player contract because a vacancy opens up and they need a street FA.

Good post. They've already done a variation on this with the practice squad. They paid a guy on the PS what was basically a full salary, and since he was not on the 53, it didn't count against the cap.

The trick here is with the PLAYER. Most players want to play. Since such deals mean they are still free to sign with anyone, the team is taking a risk that they lose the player to some other team.

What you cannot do, as has been pointed out, is try to hide money you are paying to someone who IS on the team - such as by promising money after they retire for services they are giving you now (that's what Denver tried to do). Paying someone who is not playing on your team in order to keep them off the FA market is perfectly legit.

BTW, if they want Brown as a player, they could just pay him. As a Veteran, he could be paid close to 1M and still only count for about 400K against the cap, which is so low that it would barely count.

 

[solman]

Why would they? If they didn't have player contracts, other teams could still sign them.

Huh?

The CBA explicitly permits players on the practice squad to contact and sign contracts with other teams [XXXIV(2)(a)].

League rules do NOT permit coaches to sign with other clubs.

Signing a player to a coaching contract is a BETTER way to protect that player than signing him to a practice squad contract.

Can coaches participate in full contact practices?

Yes.

Can they play in exhibition games?

No, but neither can practice squad members (since there is no practice squad at the time of the exhibition games).


I don't see what signing a player to a practice squad contract gets you that signing a player to a coaching contract doesn't get you (other than a salary cap hit and the loss of one practice squad place).

 

[mgteich]

Nonsense! All Practice Squad salaries count against the cap.

Good post. They've already done a variation on this with the practice squad. They paid a guy on the PS what was basically a full salary, and since he was not on the 53, it didn't count against the cap.

The trick here is with the PLAYER. Most players want to play. Since such deals mean they are still free to sign with anyone, the team is taking a risk that they lose the player to some other team.

What you cannot do, as has been pointed out, is try to hide money you are paying to someone who IS on the team - such as by promising money after they retire for services they are giving you now (that's what Denver tried to do). Paying someone who is not playing on your team in order to keep them off the FA market is perfectly legit.

BTW, if they want Brown as a player, they could just pay him. As a Veteran, he could be paid close to 1M and still only count for about 400K against the cap, which is so low that it would barely count.

 

[RayClay]

Huh?

The CBA explicitly permits players on the practice squad to contact and sign contracts with other teams [XXXIV(2)(a)].

League rules do NOT permit coaches to sign with other clubs.

Signing a player to a coaching contract is a BETTER way to protect that player than signing him to a practice squad contract.



Yes.



No, but neither can practice squad members (since there is no practice squad at the time of the exhibition games).


I don't see what signing a player to a practice squad contract gets you that signing a player to a coaching contract doesn't get you (other than a salary cap hit and the loss of one practice squad place).

Great, then we should do it. He'd be a great coach and a great sub if we need him.

I don't believe it has been established that it's illegal to hire him as a coach.

We also haven't established that it's illegal to sign a coach as a player.

If neither of those two thing are illegal, there has to be a legal way to do it.

Does a player need to formally retire to be a coach?

I believe Seau resigned then came back, no?

 

[solman]

Nothing you have cited precludes a team from signing a FA player to a coaching deal because there is no roster spot for him - and later signing him to a player contract because a vacancy opens up and they need a street FA. Now maybe there is a rule that the player has to formally retire (file his paperwork) before he can be hired as an NFL coach, and then petition the commissioner to rescind his retirement before he can be signed to a player contract again - but if so that is likely a doable procedural process.

I'm not saying otherwise. (Although I'm increasingly interested in what the NFL rules say about this. I can't find any of the NFL's off-field regulations on the web and would love a link.)

I AM saying two things:

1. that the team can't have a prior undisclosed arrangement with the player to do this.

2. that there SHOULD be an NFL rule that prohibits this. But I am not aware of any such rule.

Its better to have black and white rules than allow teams to stretch the rules. This is why players placed on IR are not allowed to return to the same team during the same season. Although its completely reasonable for a player to suffer a serious injury in September and be ready to play again in December, if teams were permitted to do this they would start stashing players on the IR. (But again, if I wanted to read the official rules governing the IR, where would I look?)

 

[NordicVoyager]

As the initiator of this thread, I am glad to read all of the comments my "winks/nods/understandings" thought has provoked. I personally do not think that the Patriots would do this with Troy Brown, although it seems likely that Troy is headed to a coaching career after his playing days are over. What provoked my thought was what if Troy was coaching this year and came back as a player later in the year. Can you imagine what fans of others teams around the league might say? The Patriots had a "wink/nod/understanding" and the Pats are not playing "fair".

 

[MoLewisrocks]

As the initiator of this thread, I am glad to read all of the comments my "winks/nods/understandings" thought has provoked. I personally do not think that the Patriots would do this with Troy Brown, although it seems likely that Troy is headed to a coaching career after his playing days are over. What provoked my thought was what if Troy was coaching this year and came back as a player later in the year. Can you imagine what fans of others teams around the league might say? The Patriots had a "wink/nod/understanding" and the Pats are not playing "fair".

What makes you say that? I know fans think these guys all desperately want to stay part of the game. Why then do so few of them actually end up coaching? Because it sucks and it doesn't pay much at the entry level in college or the pros. And in the pros coaches work about 48 weeks a year, and during large portions of that time they work 60-80 hour weeks.

Troy has a job for life with the team per Bob Kraft. He doesn't select coaching assistants, so it's safe to assume it's a job similar to the one Andre Tippett has that pays better than a coaching assistant and requires less than a 40 hour a week committment.

While the CBA certainly doesn't prohibit players coaching, the league may have a rule that active players cannot be compensated as coaches. I do know that announcing your retirement from the NFL is meaningless unless you file the paperwork with the management council and the NFLPA. Junior didn't, and neither has TJ yet. Which is what leaves the door open for so called retired players to make comebacks. I assume they could as well after filing the paperwork, but I believe the commissioner then has to approve their un-retired status. And that is likely because if they were the property of some team prior to retirement - as oposed to FA's - that team would again hold their rights.

 

[Pat_the_Patriot]

From Andy Hart of PFW/www.patriots.com on this very question:

"I just want to know what the status of Troy Brown is. He clearly needs to be signed by the Patriots and play out the rest of his career in New England. He is an instrumental part of the team both on the field and in the locker room providing not only versatility and reliability, but also leadership and teaching to new and veteran players alike. Where do things stand between Troy and the New England Patriots?

- David Racca

As of right now Brown is a free agent and recovering from offseason knee surgery. He has said he’d like to return to play in New England for another season. Bill Belichick has said he envisions Brown having a role with the team this fall. Sounds like a match made in heaven, right? My guess is both sides are waiting to make sure that his knee heals before he rejoins the team and signs a contract.
Brown could, in fact, serve as a coach if he agreed to such a role with the team. He wouldn’t likely be able to earn what his veteran minimum playing salary would pay him at this point -- $820,000 – but he could be paid as a coach. He would remain a free agent and could be signed to the active roster during the year if needed.
Although it would take up a roster spot, Brown could even be a player/coach if he wanted to. Some fans might remember that Broncos defensive back Jimmy Spencer served in that role in 2003 in Denver becoming the first player/coach in the NFL since Dan Reeves with the Cowboys in 1971. If Brown did serve as a player/coach not only would he take a roster spot, any money he received from the team would count toward the salary cap.

- Andy Hart"

...maybe that will help.... but then again, reading some of the posts; maybe it won't!

 

[PatsSteve1]

Brown could, in fact, serve as a coach if he agreed to such a role with the team. He wouldn’t likely be able to earn what his veteran minimum playing salary would pay him at this point -- $820,000 – but he could be paid as a coach. He would remain a free agent and could be signed to the active roster during the year if needed.

- Andy Hart"

* I'm not at all surprised at Andy Hart's answer.

 

[Fencer]

If Brown is paid fair market value for his coaching services, I doubt there's a problem.

By the way, fair market value for a first-year ex-player seems to be $0. There's a whole volunteer minority ex-player internship program.

 

[spacecrime]

I stand corrected

I stand corrected. I'd like to think this will temper my opinions on matters concerning the CBA, but as my wife will tell you, I've never let a lack of knowledge interfere with my opinions. (EDIT: QUOTE=Mrs. Spacecrime: That's for sure!)

My only question now is, why haven't teams taken advantage of this before?

From Ask PFW:

As of right now Brown is a free agent and recovering from offseason knee surgery. He has said he’d like to return to play in New England for another season. Bill Belichick has said he envisions Brown having a role with the team this fall. Sounds like a match made in heaven, right? My guess is both sides are waiting to make sure that his knee heals before he rejoins the team and signs a contract.
Brown could, in fact, serve as a coach if he agreed to such a role with the team. He wouldn’t likely be able to earn what his veteran minimum playing salary would pay him at this point -- $820,000 – but he could be paid as a coach. He would remain a free agent and could be signed to the active roster during the year if needed.
Although it would take up a roster spot, Brown could even be a player/coach if he wanted to. Some fans might remember that Broncos defensive back Jimmy Spencer served in that role in 2003 in Denver becoming the first player/coach in the NFL since Dan Reeves with the Cowboys in 1971. If Brown did serve as a player/coach not only would he take a roster spot, any money he received from the team would count toward the salary cap.
Andy Hart

 

[solman]

Re: I stand corrected

My only question now is, why haven't teams taken advantage of this before?

If we accept Mr. Hart's explanation the reason is simple.

FIRST, If Troy is a player/coach it costs:

1 Roster Spot
$820K+ in cash
$435K+ in cap

He might as well just be a player.

SECOND, If Troy is just a coach he earns either zero or close to it (at least in comparison to $820K). If he is able to play, he is not going to want to give up $820K. (His promotional deals may be preconditioned on his being an active player, in which case the numbers could be considerably higher).

THIRD, If Troy is just a coach, but the Pats offer Troy a coaching salary comparable to $820K in exchange for being available later in the season when they want to activate him, they are in violation of the CBA.

If we accept Mr. Hart's explanation as fact, it does create the following dilemma. Players who fit neither on the 53 man roster nor the practice squad could be signed as coaches and neither count against the cap nor the roster limitations. There is no reason (from a competitive standpoint) for teams not to abuse this practice. Since Mr. Hart has examples of player/coaches, but no examples of players being compensated first as coaches and then as players, one possible explanation is that the teams don't agree with Mr. Hart's assessment of what is and is not permitted.