So regardless of the outcome with Berman, this needs to get bigger than just the Pats

[BTTA]

Thanks means alot to us, we really like people comming here and having fun. We have problems like most cities. I was Advanced life support for Kerr ambulance in Kittery, New castle, portsmith, dover, etc some of the smartest, common sence , informed , genuiny kind people there. We alway like when the Pats fans come to town here. what the hand grenades, lol, though a little tip baking soda and water is the best anti-acid and help with queasiness

Hey pherein, my wife's last professional jaunt to NOLA resulted her discovering Sazerac, and ordering a case of it from the bar that made it for her and her girlfriends. The liquor cabinet here is quite full.

Just want you to know that this DC household is doing what it can to help with your local economy.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Even if he did have his own personal come-to-jesus moment (which, to be frank, I still doubt), I think his Bountygate sentiments reflect how the majority of the owners feel. It's possible that Goodell's repeated mismanagement of issues and central participation in scandals has changed some of their views, but I think most of these owners don't really know/care until they're in the crosshairs. And when they are in the crosshairs, they find that it's them against the rest. Kraft is as guilty of that as anyone; more than anyone else, he's gone out of his way to be the voice of the owners in support of Goodell over the years.

FTW I agree. Kraft is most guilty of going along to get along. Him and the owners hold the greatest blame next to Goodell himself. But as unpopular as this may be, Brady has a modicum of guilt in it too. His name carries a lot of weight. Did he rock the boat to change the system that was railroading other players? In reality most of us diehard fans are kind of guilty on this (with a big shout out exemption to Joker-Man). That's how big, how ubiquitous the game of the NFL is at this point. From the average fan to some of the most powerful, to the average to the most decent of us, precious few have bucked the trend of the NFL Titan. Think about it, how many of us took just a modicum of time to look into Bountygate or the Incognito thing or the Boys/Skins thing, and then spoke up to show support for an injustice (how many of us were Steph?)? Sure there were a few, however, there were very few. 99% of us just wanted the season to start. (huge shout out to the Joker-Man for being one guy to fly the flag of Goodell The Railroader for many many years and even enduring ridicule for it).

But I think the commissioner's office has gotten bigger than the owners expected or maybe even recognized in time. I don't see any way, deep down how most of these owners can like what they are seeing. They have to know where the trend is heading and have to know it will eventually pull into a station that it can't pull out of. But the thing is, if you are an owner and you speak out against the commissioner (even privately but certainly publicly) -- and you do not have the unquestioned support of a lot of other owners(a difficult reality) -- you are putting yourself and your franchise behind the eight ball. Goodell has shown he will use the power of his office to injure. He is even arguing on court that guilt is irrelevant - he can decide it any damn way he pleases. So as an owner why in the world would you think Goodell will not do it to you/your team? He will. So I have a suspicion that even the owners, as individuals, feel a little powerless against the commissioner, and an individual owner is definitely skittish about going counter to the commissioner.
Another possibility here is the office itself as a collective may be the issue as much as the commissioner himself(though he would have been the catalyst for it all). Take a look at government -- you can clearly see that the unwritten branch of government (the administrative branch) has power that the political leaders themselves sometimes can't constrain. So while it may not be likely, it is possible with the size of the NFL that the NFL administrative branch as a collective is so powerful the the individual figure head can't always restrain ((this thing is so out of hand for something so undeserving of this absurd attention and fight, even the seemingly implausible has to be considered as an underlying cause of this surreal reality)).

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

You're definitely not wrong, but I doubt Jones particularly cares to make that distinction re: levels of being screwed. As he probably sees it, Kraft didn't have his back so there's no reason for him to have Kraft's.

And the reason why Jones wouldn't say that is because, by saying it, he would be giving Kraft at least partly what he wants: public support for the notion that the Patriots' punishment was unjust. Any statement acknowledging that the Patriots were wronged--even one that clarifies why he won't come to their defense--indirectly comes to their defense.

On the 'you didn't have my back so I don't have yours' you are 100% correct. Regardless of the very large differing levels of BS each owner had to swallow, Kraft did not have his back. Kraft, it appears, urged him to not rock the boat and to move on.

But one thing, when you read Jones' statement it intimates a small level of support of Kraft and no real support of Goodell. Doesn't Jones staement basically say in Jones opinion he was treated unfairly, Kraft is in the same boat (meaning Kraft was wronged?), Jones sucked it up just as he was urged to, so Kraft should suck it up as he is urged to. Nobody should not rock the boat.
Did I misread that??

 

[Mr. Plow]

FTW I agree. Kraft is most guilty of going along to get along. Him and the owners hold the greatest blame next to Goodell himself. But as unpopular as this may be, Brady has a modicum of guilt in it too. His name carries a lot of weight. Did he rock the boat to change the system that was railroading other players? In reality most of us diehard fans are kind of guilty on this (with a big shout out exemption to Joker-Man). That's how big, how ubiquitous the game of the NFL is at this point. From the average fan to some of the most powerful, to the average to the most decent of us, precious few have bucked the trend of the NFL Titan. Think about it, how many of us took just a modicum of time to look into Bountygate or the Incognito thing or the Boys/Skins thing, and then spoke up to show support for an injustice (how many of us were Steph?)? Sure there were a few, however, there were very few. 99% of us just wanted the season to start. (huge shout out to the Joker-Man for being one guy to fly the flag of Goodell The Railroader for many many years and even enduring ridicule for it).

But I think the commissioner's office has gotten bigger than the owners expected or maybe even recognized in time. I don't see any way, deep down how most of these owners can like what they are seeing. They have to know where the trend is heading and have to know it will eventually pull into a station that it can't pull out of. But the thing is, if you are an owner and you speak out against the commissioner (even privately but certainly publicly) -- and you do not have the unquestioned support of a lot of other owners(a difficult reality) -- you are putting yourself and your franchise behind the eight ball. Goodell has shown he will use the power of his office to injure. He is even arguing on court that guilt is irrelevant - he can decide it any damn way he pleases. So as an owner why in the world would you think Goodell will not do it to you/your team? He will. So I have a suspicion that even the owners, as individuals, feel a little powerless against the commissioner, and an individual owner is definitely skittish about going counter to the commissioner.
Another possibility here is the office itself as a collective may be the issue as much as the commissioner himself(though he would have been the catalyst for it all). Take a look at government -- you can clearly see that the unwritten branch of government (the administrative branch) has power that the political leaders themselves sometimes can't constrain. So while it may not be likely, it is possible with the size of the NFL that the NFL administrative branch as a collective is so powerful the the individual figure head can't always restrain ((this thing is so out of hand for something so undeserving of this absurd attention and fight, even the seemingly implausible has to be considered as an underlying cause of this surreal reality)).

A lot of wisdom here. As long as a situation doesn't impact us directly, we don't care what's happening to the other guy.

There are three fan bases suffering much worse than we are right now. Fans in St. Louis, Oakland and San Diego are in immediate danger of losing their teams forever. Each of these cities has a longstanding, loyal cadre of fans. Each city has been an NFL town since I've been alive, and I'm not a young man. I don't hear anyone on ESPN or NFL.com or anywhere else speaking up about this.

Remember when there was talk, very serious talk, about moving the Patriots away? They could be a distant memory now, like the Hartford Whalers. That could have happened to us, and it's going to happen to millions of fans in the next few years. I really don't like the direction the NFL is headed in right now.

I think the league has lost its soul.

 

[XLIX]

There are three fan bases suffering much worse than we are right now. Fans in St. Louis, Oakland and San Diego are in immediate danger of losing their teams forever. Each of these cities has a longstanding, loyal cadre of fans. Each city has been an NFL town since I've been alive, and I'm not a young man.

You'd have to be younger than 20 for that to be a true statement. Oakland was without an NFL team for the decade or so when the Raiders played in Los Angeles. St. Louis was without an NFL team for the decade or so after the Cardinals left but before the Rams arrived. In fact, that was the city that the Patriots were going to move to under James Busch Orthwein.

I'm not disagreeing with you though that the fans of those cities get screwed.

 

[The Gr8est]

There's a lot of discrepancies from what the NFL said and what really happened. Wasted the team for couple seasons. I'm always surprised at how smart NE fans are to look the little things up to get to the truth. Really smart fans. Goodell needs to be fired and the NFL need to apologize to the the Patriots,Fans and Brady. Not sure they can undo the damage to the Saints anymore, but I think most of us will be happy if the Pats are vindicated.

If Goodell gets fired, while they can't undo the Payton suspension, his replacement COULD undo the loss of draft picks, with interest.

I'd also like to see punishments revisited for teams that were given favorable treatment, in particular the Rats.

The only question is how far back would we need to go when looking at unjust decisions.

While I appreciate your comments regarding Pats fans' smarts, the reality is we are that way regarding the depth of knowledge about incidents like Spygate and Defamegate because we have had it thrust on us by being victims of the corrupt NFL* front office. Speaking for myself I'd much rather be ignorant of the inner workings of the NFL* and legal system and be able to just enjoy watching the team I love be able to compete fairly on the playing field.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

A lot of wisdom here. As long as a situation doesn't impact us directly, we don't care what's happening to the other guy.

There are three fan bases suffering much worse than we are right now. Fans in St. Louis, Oakland and San Diego are in immediate danger of losing their teams forever. Each of these cities has a longstanding, loyal cadre of fans. Each city has been an NFL town since I've been alive, and I'm not a young man. I don't hear anyone on ESPN or NFL.com or anywhere else speaking up about this.

Remember when there was talk, very serious talk, about moving the Patriots away? They could be a distant memory now, like the Hartford Whalers. That could have happened to us, and it's going to happen to millions of fans in the next few years. I really don't like the direction the NFL is headed in right now.

I think the league has lost its soul.

Soul, moral compass, system of values -- there is a lot of ways to describe it. I think your spot on using 'soul'. The NFL has lost its sense of fair play within its functions as a collective. And if this is a correct description -- as it seems to be -- Mark Cuban's prediction will come true sooner than later. The logical progression for an NFL acting as it seems to be is a some level of downfall will happen.
It's a tough pill to swallow as the game itself is great. It's the best sport on the planet IMHO. But the stewards are driving it to a logical conclusion that will almost certainly mar this great sport.

I'm not so young either . Just how 'un-young' am I? When I hear someone mention MTV or see its name in print, for me it conjures up Tawny Kitaen on top of a car -- not a bunch of teenagers living in a house.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

If Goodell gets fired, while they can't undo the Payton suspension, his replacement COULD undo the loss of draft picks, with interest.

I'd also like to see punishments revisited for teams that were given favorable treatment, in particular the Rats.

The only question is how far back would we need to go when looking at unjust decisions.

While I appreciate your comments regarding Pats fans' smarts, the reality is we are that way regarding the depth of knowledge about incidents like Spygate and Defamegate because we have had it thrust on us by being victims of the corrupt NFL* front office. Speaking for myself I'd much rather be ignorant of the inner workings of the NFL* and legal system and be able to just enjoy watching the team I love be able to compete fairly on the playing field.

Yes. And it's too bad that we have to wonder/think about the inner workings of the NFL instead of just enjoying the sport itself.
The NFL will not always be right or even fair. People and collectives make mistakes. But if the NFL had a simple sense of fair play in its thought process, I could feel better that their decisions from the start would be better and they would be open to fair processes for remedying mistakes. Unfortunately what they are now, after the big wake up that was visited on us, means anyone who just accepts their decisions while waiting for the start of the season is enabling future railroading and an eventual marring of the sport we just want to be able to watch.
Just is what it is....

 

[Mr. Plow]

You'd have to be younger than 20 for that to be a true statement. Oakland was without an NFL team for the decade or so when the Raiders played in Los Angeles. St. Louis was without an NFL team for the decade or so after the Cardinals left but before the Rams arrived. In fact, that was the city that the Patriots were going to move to under James Busch Orthwein.

I'm not disagreeing with you though that the fans of those cities get screwed.

I forgot that the hiatus for St. Louis and Oakland were that long.

Understand, I still catch myself referring to the St. Louis Cardinals and the Baltimore Colts.

 

[raduray]

If Goodell gets fired, while they can't undo the Payton suspension, his replacement COULD undo the loss of draft picks, with interest.

Goodell's got a contract through 2018. Can you imagine the lawsuit (or payoff) if they were to terminate him before then?

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

SO you give a glorified "go-pher" with no legal training or business experience this kind of authority and it's a big surprise when it ends badly?

I give Kraft credit for admitting he made a mistake but endorsing Goodell all this time looks like inexcusably poor judgement.

 

[TommyD4207]

Goodell's got a contract through 2018. Can you imagine the lawsuit (or payoff) if they were to terminate him before then?

It would depend on the circumstances of his termination.

From: "Constitution and By-Laws of the National Football League", page 28, Article VIII:

The League shall select and employ a person of unquestioned integrity to serve as Commissioner of the League and shall determine the period and fix the compensation of his employment. All voting requirements and procedures for the selection of or successor to the office of Commissioner shall be determined by the affirmative vote of not less than two-thirds or 18, whichever is greater, of the members of the League.

Considering Goodell is facing a contempt of court hearing in a couple of weeks, and the fact that IF Berman rules in Brady's favor, he's essentially calling Goodell a liar - I think the owners would have cause to determine that it's Goodell who is in breach of contract.

By the way, this is why owners always use that weird language about Goodell, talking about his "impeccable character and integrity" when like, it doesn't make sense to do that

 

[Fencer]

Goodell's got a contract through 2018. Can you imagine the lawsuit (or payoff) if they were to terminate him before then?

When has Goodell ever won a lawsuit?

 

[BTTA]

If Goodell gets fired, while they can't undo the Payton suspension, his replacement COULD undo the loss of draft picks, with interest.
I'd also like to see punishments revisited for teams that were given favorable treatment, in particular the Rats.
The only question is how far back would we need to go when looking at unjust decisions.

Yes. We Pats fans are focused primarily on this one court case, and on Brady's suspension, and to a lesser extent on the "we'll never get them back" draft picks.

But what does justice look like, if the misdirection of the NFL front office is to addressed fully? How far back to go? How broad is the scope?

The issue of The Lost Cities of the NFL (Oakland, San Diego, St. Louis) is an interesting addition. If the fans in those cities helped make the NFL what it is, just as much as the fans in other cities with bigger/healthier economies, how should they be treated by an NFL "with a soul?"

And, like any broadening of scope, it brings a risk of diluting the main message and primary campaign.

 

[Mack Herron]

Yes, Goodell has been corrupt since he took office and all the good people who sat quietly while he rode roughshod over the CBA and any moral sense of fairness and integrity can share some of the responsibility for the consequences, which certainly are not limited to our team. Goodell has surrounded himself with soldiers willing do to do his bidding, but the source of the corruption is Goodell. When he goes, his henchmen will be swept out with him. For all the complexity and murkiness in legal battles, what is clear to me is that the essential element of a fair and just resolution is that Goodell cannot remain in power to do this again. While we can share responsibility for allowing Goodell to continue his reign, having come to this realization, moving forward we can no longer claim ignorance. So our efforts now should focus on one question: what can we do to hasten Goodell's termination? This is a tall order for mere fans, and it may not happen. But it may not be impossible. We have already seen Kraft respond to fan indignation. I would like to see him follow Kessler's lead of no longer standing behind a cloak of solidarity or professionalism. Kraft should come out in the media and state publicly that what has happened is wrong and a detriment to the integrity of the game, that he has come to the conclusion that Goodell is not qualified to lead the NFL. He needs to be a leader and show other owners who share direct responsibility and retain a shred of morality that the emperor is naked.

 

[JJC]

Well said.
A lot of people sometimes don't get it. I'm not putting them down, I am guilty of it too sometimes.
But it is a fact: when an unpopular person is allowed to be railroaded then we all but guarantee others get railroaded. And those others will be less and less the "unpopular" types. Eventually those railroaded will be the good people who just happen to disagree (and sometimes rightly and importantly disagree).
This is a direct result of the masses/media making sure their is only one acceptable opinion and if someone holds a differing opinion they too will be railroaded (railroaded in the small, everyday ways).

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Neimöller

 

[flasox27]

Yes, Goodell has been corrupt since he took office and all the good people who sat quietly while he rode roughshod over the CBA and any moral sense of fairness and integrity can share some of the responsibility for the consequences, which certainly are not limited to our team. Goodell has surrounded himself with soldiers willing do to do his bidding, but the source of the corruption is Goodell. When he goes, his henchmen will be swept out with him. For all the complexity and murkiness in legal battles, what is clear to me is that the essential element of a fair and just resolution is that Goodell cannot remain in power to do this again. While we can share responsibility for allowing Goodell to continue his reign, having come to this realization, moving forward we can no longer claim ignorance. So our efforts now should focus on one question: what can we do to hasten Goodell's termination? This is a tall order for mere fans, and it may not happen. But it may not be impossible. We have already seen Kraft respond to fan indignation. I would like to see him follow Kessler's lead of no longer standing behind a cloak of solidarity or professionalism. Kraft should come out in the media and state publicly that what has happened is wrong and a detriment to the integrity of the game, that he has come to the conclusion that Goodell is not qualified to lead the NFL. He needs to be a leader and show other owners who share direct responsibility and retain a shred of morality that the emperor is naked.

However don't hold your breath expecting Kraft to do anything overtly or behind the scenes regarding Goodell. Firstly, he has no discernable influence or support from the other owners after his lengthy and vociferous support of the POS. Secondly, I do not believe he feels that Goodell is the problem despite his protestations against the League. I am not convinced that Kraft won't change his mind again if Goodell does some window dressing in the League office.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Yes, Goodell has been corrupt since he took office and all the good people who sat quietly while he rode roughshod over the CBA and any moral sense of fairness and integrity can share some of the responsibility for the consequences, which certainly are not limited to our team. Goodell has surrounded himself with soldiers willing do to do his bidding, but the source of the corruption is Goodell. When he goes, his henchmen will be swept out with him. For all the complexity and murkiness in legal battles, what is clear to me is that the essential element of a fair and just resolution is that Goodell cannot remain in power to do this again. While we can share responsibility for allowing Goodell to continue his reign, having come to this realization, moving forward we can no longer claim ignorance. So our efforts now should focus on one question: what can we do to hasten Goodell's termination? This is a tall order for mere fans, and it may not happen. But it may not be impossible. We have already seen Kraft respond to fan indignation. I would like to see him follow Kessler's lead of no longer standing behind a cloak of solidarity or professionalism. Kraft should come out in the media and state publicly that what has happened is wrong and a detriment to the integrity of the game, that he has come to the conclusion that Goodell is not qualified to lead the NFL. He needs to be a leader and show other owners who share direct responsibility and retain a shred of morality that the emperor is naked.

And IF Goodell and his minions get swept out of the office as they should, they get to ride off into the sunset with how many millions of dollars for all these years of screwing up the sport? Eff that! I want a defamation suit right on their tail as they ride off.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

It is not collusion when the NFLPA signs off on it with their approval, which they reportedly did.

EDIT: Also, the 2011 CBA indemnified the NFL from any accusations or charges of collusion for anything that took place beforehand. Basically the players sold out the Cowboys and Redskins in exchange for a slightly higher cap league wide. I hate the league office and I hate the Cowboys and I hate the Redskins, so I really don't care who won or lost that little duel.

Given how the league is ran do you really think the league was forthright with the PA? Or do you think they strong armed the PA and then leaked the reports you speak of?

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

However don't hold your breath expecting Kraft to do anything overtly or behind the scenes regarding Goodell. Firstly, he has no discernable influence or support from the other owners after his lengthy and vociferous support of the POS. Secondly, I do not believe he feels that Goodell is the problem despite his protestations against the League. I am not convinced that Kraft won't change his mind again if Goodell does some window dressing in the League office.

How can Goodell possibly keep his job if the Brady arbitration award blows up like we expect/hope it will?

He'll be like Mike Nifong of the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Yeah, many of the "superfans" may not care if Brady and the Patriots were wrongfully harassed with a malicious prosecution but casual fans and fair minded non fans should side with us Patriots fans on the issue of how Goodell should be dealt with when this is over.

I mean, were North Carolina fans rushing to Nifong's defense after his misconduct was exposed?