sry to waste a thread on this, but I have a question

[eom]

when the report first broke I heard all the chatter and for a few minutes I actually thought these guys did it --- I still wouldn't give 2 craps, but I lost faith for a moment and believed the accusations.

so, as I'm chatting about this, people post snippets of hilarious texts, or some passage gets referenced, I find myself referring back to the actual document for a little more info here and there, although I've only read maybe a couple pages total, at this point.

is there actually anything in this 240 pages of nonsense that incriminates anybody??

I thought I'd find some kind of smoking gun when I went in there, and I haven't seen anything that seems even a little bit shady or unusual.
does the emperor wear clothes --- where are people getting all this vitriol from?
is there a second document?

ok, maybe that was more than one question
I'm really not trying to defend anyone here --- I don't even know what I'd be defending them from

 

[blackglass3]

I don't know. My friend texted me last night because I keep posting on Facebook about it; he is a smart guy and is not at all a hater but he thinks the report proves Brady had something to do with it. He also says if I wasn't a fan I'd feel the same way.

I think we're pretty objective here. I stand by my opinion Brady did nothing wrong. I am convinced Wells is given a conclusion and told to prove that, much like the Ritchie Incognito and the Goodell/Ray Rice tape investigations.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

There's nothing. Which is the irritation. I don't give a damn if they cheated and are punished, this is the NFL "you play to win the game" not the rec league soccer that I coach. However there's no evidence so any punishment would be very annoying.

The closest I've found to evidence :

- Reference to McNally being called "The Deflator". Clearly unfortunate wording. A little difficult to explain but a reasonable explanation is Brady's prep is when the balls are at 13 or so and McNally takes the finished product and deflates them to 12.5.

- McNally disappearing into the bathroom on the way to the field and locking the door. Also he was inconsistent with his explanation of why, initially saying he went straight to the field. As for the explanation, it's reasonable to not consider a bathroom stop as a detour. If he were told to go straight to Belichick's office, a stop at the bathroom wouldn't change that IMO, as opposed to, say, stopping off to talk to Ernie Adams first. As for the goings on in the bathroom, he would have 7 -8 seconds per ball (he was there for 100 seconds) to deflate. As a deflator myself (I deflate the rock hard soccer balls I get every season to a reasonable level), 7-8 second is doable but tough. It would take 3-4 seconds each to take enough air out to be noticable and a fair amount of organization would be necessary to ensure that each ball is done once and only once. I could see it being done in 100 but it's a very tight timeline.

That's about it. And there is ZERO about Brady knowing other than an assumption that the QB had to know. Brady texted "You did nothing wrong" but I guess that's ignored. As is the text from one equipment guy to another that the balls in the Jets game were supposed to be 13 but refs put them up to "almost 16". Everyone really need to read the report to understand how bad it is.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

I don't know. My friend texted me last night because I keep posting on Facebook about it; he is a smart guy and is not at all a hater but he thinks the report proves Brady had something to do with it. He also says if I wasn't a fan I'd feel the same way.

Ask for specifics on Brady. If you get one, post it, I'd love to know what I missed.

 

[Wilfork#75]

From what I have read in the report it certainly doesn't PROVE anything in regards to tampering with the balls.

The scientific data is shaky at best and it even admits it can't conclusively say if tampering occurred.

The way I describe the text messages part is its one mans opinion, based on his interpretation of hearsay, despite consistent and plausible contradictory testimony from multiple witnesses.

While some of the texts don't look great out of context, the only way I think you can actually link that to any wrongdoing is if you believe every piece of testimony by anyone related to the Patriots is a lie, then you make your own interpretations of the text messages with little or no evidence. As completely stupid and ridiculous as that sounds, that is exactly what Wells did.

One thing the Wells report does prove is that McNally improperly took the balls from the officials room and took them into the bathroom on the way to the field. That is against league rules and the Pats should be punished for it. Precedent says a $25,000 fine would be appropriate.

 

[PatsSox363804]

There is nothing in the entire report that shows that Brady likes the balls below 12.5 or that he ever told anyone to let air out of the balls after inspection. It's a complete crock of ****.

 

[Wilfork#75]

- Reference to McNally being called "The Deflator". Clearly unfortunate wording. A little difficult to explain but a reasonable explanation is Brady's prep is when the balls are at 13 or so and McNally takes the finished product and deflates them to 12.5.

This is certainly the text that looks the worst along with the "I'm not going to ESPN...yet"

My argument here would be can a text exchange from May 9 2014, 8 months before the AFC Championship game prove misconduct on January 18 2015?

If the argument is that it's evidence of long term, ongoing cheating, I would argue that is contradicted by the balls in the Jets game on October 16 where "a few of them were nearly 16."

 

[PatsSox363804]

This is certainly the text that looks the worst along with the "I'm not going to ESPN...yet"

My argument here would be can a text exchange from May 9 2014, 8 months before the AFC Championship game prove misconduct on January 18 2015?

If the argument is that it's evidence of long term, ongoing cheating, I would argue that is contradicted by the balls in the Jets game on October 16 where "a few of them were nearly 16."

Exactly. If we had this intricate cheating system how the hell were those balls at 16? Also, the text is in friggin May, no where near a game, and there's no context in any of this.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Exactly. If we had this intricate cheating system how the hell were those balls at 16?

That was a home game so it should have been easy for The Deflator to feel the rock hard balls and deflate them a little extra as opposed to being surprised the next day how hard they were.

 

[The Gr8est]

There is nothing in the entire report that shows that Brady likes the balls below 12.5 or that he ever told anyone to let air out of the balls after inspection. It's a complete crock of ****.

Right. Brady finding the actual 12.5 - 13.5 psi range in the rulebook, and having the ball boys take that to the refs is, apparently, evidence that Brady wants the balls under 12.5 psi.

 

[hambone1818]

I believe it's one of those 'where there's smoke there's fire' with regard to the text messages. McNally calling himself 'the deflator'. McNally saying 'I haven't gone to ESPN...yet', and the talk about shoes/memorabilia. And finally Anderson saying the balls disappeared before the game without an official present to escort them to the field, with McNally stopping in the bathroom (when he first told investigators that he went straight to the field).

So in truth there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, lots of little things that, combined, look bad for McNally and, by extension, Brady. But two key points that I keep hammering:
1. nothing, absolutely nothing, implicates Brady. The report talks about Brady lying about not knowing McNally, when in fact he could simply not know the guys real name (as Bruschi said, he knew McNally as 'Bird', never would have known his real name). The report talks about 'payments' through the shoes/memorobilia when in fact that is very, very likely common practice for players to reward low-rung employees with valuable stuff the players would otherwise give to charity. The 'deflator' comment is the one that is most troublesome, but without ANY context and coming in May of 2014 it's impossible to say what he was talking about, beyond speculation. The rest is nothing but theories, jumping to the conclusion that is most injurious for Brady.
2. the PSI readings...PFT's latest article discusses it (thread posted this morning on it), the report uses one gauge's measurements and ignores the other. Anderson said he recalls using the gauge that the Wells report DIDN'T use. The Colts measurements as the 'control' are highly suspect, because they only measured four at halftime, there's no talk about the ambient temperature of the balls when they were inflated (which could throw off their halftime measurements)...the conclusion was drawn before the data was analyzed and they conveniently used the measurements that are most injurious to Brady.

tl;dr the report is biased in it's analysis of both the texts and the scientific data, and can still only conclude that Brady was 'more probable than not generally aware' of balls being deflated. They could just have easily have interpreted everything different and concluded with conviction that the balls were never deflated, and examined the timeline that led to the Patriots balls being examined and the leaks that came from a league official that were terribly injurious to the Patriots, but we all know why they didn't take it in that direction.

 

[Deus Irae]

is there actually anything in this 240 pages of nonsense that incriminates anybody??

The most 'damning' evidence in the report is the balls going missing, and McNally taking them to the bathroom. That's really the only thing that's not easily explained away.

 

[NashuaPats]

This is certainly the text that looks the worst along with the "I'm not going to ESPN...yet"

My argument here would be can a text exchange from May 9 2014, 8 months before the AFC Championship game prove misconduct on January 18 2015?

If the argument is that it's evidence of long term, ongoing cheating, I would argue that is contradicted by the balls in the Jets game on October 16 where "a few of them were nearly 16."

A perfectly plausible explanation is that this 48 year old guy who has been doing the same job for a long time was being given a new responsbility (making sure the refs don't over inflate the balls) by a much younger assistant equipment manager and he was grumpy as hell over it. And was rudely, somewhat humorously, and sarcastically giving him a hard time over it while the younger guy just put up with and went along with it. All their text message conversations play out that way. I've seen that same dynamic many times. I'm sure most people have.

 

[Wilfork#75]

The most 'damning' evidence in the report is the balls going missing, and McNally taking them to the bathroom. That's really the only thing that's not easily explained away.

And it doesn't have to be, its a fact. McNally acted improperly by taking the balls without the referees permission then stopping the the bathroom on the way to the field. The Patriots are guilty of that and should be fined accordingly (precedent suggests $25k would be about right). That still isn't evidence that any tampering occurred though.

 

[Wilfork#75]

A perfectly plausible explanation is that this 48 year old guy who has been doing the same job for a long time was being given a new responsbility (making sure the refs don't over inflate the balls) by a much younger assistant equipment manager and he was grumpy as hell over it. And was rudely, somewhat humorously, and sarcastically giving him a hard time over it while the younger guy just put up with and went along with it. All their text message conversations play out that way. I've seen that same dynamic many times. I'm sure most people have.

Absolutely, and to think that a 65 year old lawyer can interpret ambiguous text messages correctly, between two equipment employees for a football team despite being offered consistent and plausible explanations is completely absurd.

 

[Lavictoire]

The most 'damning' evidence in the report is the balls going missing, and McNally taking them to the bathroom. That's really the only thing that's not easily explained away.

I agree. So discipline McNally and call it a day. The haters will rage but this whole thing was exaggerated in the media from the start.

 

[reflexblue]

I don't know. My friend texted me last night because I keep posting on Facebook about it; he is a smart guy and is not at all a hater but he thinks the report proves Brady had something to do with it. He also says if I wasn't a fan I'd feel the same way.

I think we're pretty objective here. I stand by my opinion Brady did nothing wrong. I am convinced Wells is given a conclusion and told to prove that, much like the Ritchie Incognito and the Goodell/Ray Rice tape investigations.

The more i read the more its obvious that brady and the pats were deemed guilty and this 'investigation' was launched to back that conclusion. Anytime the NFL needs a legal hatchet done they call in Wells..... Ive pretty much made up my mind as to why would this was started in the first place. The NFL front offices are run by ex jest employees, Kinsils father ran the jest for many years, than his son took over for him and ran the jest for 28 years which included the time that BB left the NYJ. i think he and another ex jest saw an opportunity to disgrace the patriots just before the SB and took it. Goodell grabbed this opportunity and ran with it because of how inept he looked handling the ray rice fiasco along with a couple of others. The same people going after brady now were calling for goodell to resign. He could bash the pats who are disliked because of they're dominance for the last twenty years and look like a strong and descisive. Someone who is standing up for the integrity of the game. I can't think of any other logic explanation for what has happened. The rule book says the penalty is a $25,000 fine. Its like jay walking and is being treated as a murder case.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree. So discipline McNally and call it a day. The haters will rage but this whole thing was exaggerated in the media from the start.

My problem with the McNally thing is that claim that such an action has never happened before, but the official just let it happen without making any changes.

That would be an admission of the official's complete incompetence.

 

[Tunescribe]

The more i read the more its obvious that brady and the pats were deemed guilty and this 'investigation' was launched to back that conclusion.

Absolutely. It was a prosecution that failed, never an investigation.

 

[eom]

Thank you guys very much for pointing out the dates on these texts -- I hadn't noticed that