Some love for Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon?

[Ozymandias]

Ty Law's 40 time at the combine was 4.5. He turned out pretty good.

Different era completely. During the mid-90s that was considered to be pretty good for a corner, like what a 4.4 would be considered today. What was fast back in the day isn't anymore. Guys are getting bigger, stronger, faster seemingly every year.

Alfonzo Dennard played at Nebraska, which, last I checked, is not in the SEC.

My mistake. My point still stands though, Dennard had more experience at being on an island than Ryan did and had more success at it. That's not debatable. Let's not lose track of the basic premise of that.

 

[mgteich]

No.

Ryan and Harmon would simply get more reps. The emergency backups at corner and safety are Cole and Tavon Wilson, both excellent special teamers.

I have one question. Is there possibility if Talib gets hurt for more than 4 weeks that they sign Dowling?

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Different era completely. During the mid-90s that was considered to be pretty good for a corner, like what a 4.4 would be considered today.

This is really unsubstantiated, and I don't think you have the data to back that up. Guys are getting bigger/faster/stronger as you say, but it's more of a ratio---guys running fast at a bigger weight than before. Nobody's still broken Deion's combine record, and guys were running every bit as fast in the 90s as they were now. The 40 times of some of the top CBs in the league, as posted earlier, indicates that.

Haden got drafted top 10 after running multiple 4.6's, because he plays at a 4.6 on the field. A lot of track stars run 4.3 or 4.4 but put them in pads and they slow down.

 

[JackBauer]

Different era completely. During the mid-90s that was considered to be pretty good for a corner, like what a 4.4 would be considered today. What was fast back in the day isn't anymore. Guys are getting bigger, stronger, faster seemingly every year.

Not only that but Law didn't need to rely as much on raw speed as corners could be much more physical pre-rules change, which was really his wheelhouse.

 

[Harrisoned!]

Different era completely. During the mid-90s that was considered to be pretty good for a corner, like what a 4.4 would be considered today. What was fast back in the day isn't anymore. Guys are getting bigger, stronger, faster seemingly every year.


My mistake. My point still stands though, Dennard had more experience at being on an island than Ryan did and had more success at it. That's not debatable. Let's not lose track of the basic premise of that.

No, that's not true. Logan Ryan was a 3-year starter at Rutgers and a two-time all-conference selection. Dennard started two years at Nebraska and was also a two-time all-conference selection.

Their pedigrees were pretty much the same. Pre-draft, Ryan was rated between the late 2nd and 4th round. Pre-draft/pre-arrest, Dennard was also considered a 2nd-to-4th round talent.

Ryan is 5-11, 191 with 31.3 inch arms. He ran a 4.56 40. Dennard is 5-10, 204 with 30 inch arms and ran a 4.55 40. His vert was better than Ryan's and it shows in his abilities to play the ball, but that's about the only differentiator I see between these two in terms of raw ability. That alone (the ability to play the ball well) is no small thing, but let's not make it out like we are comparing Darrelle Revis and Ellis Hobbs here.

 

[Ozymandias]

This is really unsubstantiated, and I don't think you have the data to back that up. Guys are getting bigger/faster/stronger as you say, but it's more of a ratio---guys running fast at a bigger weight than before. Nobody's still broken Deion's combine record, and guys were running every bit as fast in the 90s as they were now. The 40 times of some of the top CBs in the league, as posted earlier, indicates that.

The fastest electronically timed 40 is actually Chris Johnson's at 4.24, not Primetime's. Deion Sanders while obviously one of the fastest corners in the league during his hey day never ran such times electronically. Plenty of guys have mythological and false 40s like Darrell Green and Bo Jackson's supposed sub-4.10 times. None of these are actually proven electronically so thus they cannot be taken at face value.

Players on a whole are getting bigger, faster, and stronger. That's not even really debatable. The fastest players from each era are all around the same speed, yes, but the collective players of this current era are way above those guys from back then.

Regarding data, that's human evolution. People are faster, stronger, bigger today that they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. If you honestly believe that guys from the 80s and 90s are on 2013 level then I don't what to tell you. Because it should obvious to anyone who puts game tape and compares those eras to now.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Not only does Dennard have better long speed, but his excellent jumping ability (37" vertical and 10'09" broad jump are evidence of that) means he can climb the ladder to bat down a pass. On the other hand, Ryan has shown more change of direction ability than Dennard already. I get that the stocky/strong corner comparison but other than that they are really different players.

Logan Ryan isn't really a boundary player. Watch him tackle, and change directions, and press people - he's basically a safety with corner hips. Seems like an ideal fit as a "star" cornerback or nickel defender.

 

[Ozymandias]

No, that's not true. Logan Ryan was a 3-year starter at Rutgers and a two-time all-conference selection. Dennard started two years at Nebraska and was also a two-time all-conference selection.

Their pedigrees were pretty much the same. Pre-draft, Ryan was rated between the late 2nd and 4th round. Pre-draft/pre-arrest, Dennard was also considered a 2nd-to-4th round talent.

Ryan is 5-11, 191 with 31.3 inch arms. He ran a 4.56 40. Dennard is 5-10, 204 with 30 inch arms and ran a 4.55 40. His vert was better than Ryan's and it shows in his abilities to play the ball, but that's about the only differentiator I see between these two in terms of raw ability. That alone (the ability to play the ball well) is no small thing, but let's not make it out like we are comparing Darrelle Revis and Ellis Hobbs here.

Ryan was not as highly rated coming out as Dennard was, so it's misleading to state their pedigree was the same. In some circles Dennard was viewed as a late first rounder (Ryan never was), then his fight/ejection with Alshon Jeffrey happened, dropping his stock. Then his not elite combine times dropped it further down before his arrest made his stock non-existent.

In terms of coverage abilities, Dennard is better than him right now and was in college. The scouting report on Ryan is clear that his skills are not suitable to playing on an island on the outside where he is easily burnable. Dennard is good at being on an island. A lot of guys have similar physical appearances, but their skills aren't the same. That's not to say Ryan can't be as good as Dennard, but right now Dennard is better at those things. Ryan can still develop.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

No, that's not true. Logan Ryan was a 3-year starter at Rutgers and a two-time all-conference selection. Dennard started two years at Nebraska and was also a two-time all-conference selection.

Their pedigrees were pretty much the same. Pre-draft, Ryan was rated between the late 2nd and 4th round. Pre-draft/pre-arrest, Dennard was also considered a 2nd-to-4th round talent.

Ryan is 5-11, 191 with 31.3 inch arms. He ran a 4.56 40. Dennard is 5-10, 204 with 30 inch arms and ran a 4.55 40. His vert was better than Ryan's and it shows in his abilities to play the ball, but that's about the only differentiator I see between these two in terms of raw ability. That alone (the ability to play the ball well) is no small thing, but let's not make it out like we are comparing Darrelle Revis and Ellis Hobbs here.

Dennard ran 4.48 at the combine. Ryan ran 4.53. No idea where you're getting your numbers.

 

[manxman2601]

Ryan was not as highly rated coming out as Dennard was, so it's misleading to state their pedigree was the same. In some circles Dennard was viewed as a late first rounder (Ryan never was), then his fight/ejection with Alshon Jeffrey happened, dropping his stock. Then his not elite combine times dropped it further down before his arrest made his stock non-existent.

In terms of coverage abilities, Dennard is better than him right now and was in college. The scouting report on Ryan is clear that his skills are not suitable to playing on an island on the outside where he is easily burnable. Dennard is good at being on an island. A lot of guys have similar physical appearances, but their skills aren't the same. That's not to say Ryan can't be as good as Dennard, but right now Dennard is better at those things. Ryan can still develop.

It was Dennard's bad Senior Bowl that caused his stock to drop initially. Had problems letting receivers get behind him too easily.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Your first bit is what makes Dennard the outlier, at least on paper. I know he's been burnt deep a few times, (he looks much faster on tape than his combine time would suggest) but it's his physicality that makes him such a good corner. When he gets his hands on you, you're not going to beat him coverage. He struggles with shallow crossing routes, where his lack of foot speed does somewhat show up.

I do find it interesting that the Patriots have went that route - a lot of press coverage physical corners instead of quick speedy diminutive guys like they used to have. I think that was the right choice to make in today's NFL.

Yes. this appears to be an adjustment that BB has made in his thinking about the CB position, The league is now full of very big receivers; and the 5-8 very fast smurf maybe there where the ball and receiver are, but he can't stop the catch.

The other change I have noticed is that BB is signing youngsters. instead of old veteran ex-starters for his depth positions. But it merely may be that he is doing this because there is more young talent worthy of development or he isi largely seeking the second instead of the first, prime reserve. IOW, the team is DEEP.

 

[AzPatsFan]

No, that's not true. Logan Ryan was a 3-year starter at Rutgers and a two-time all-conference selection. Dennard started two years at Nebraska and was also a two-time all-conference selection.

Their pedigrees were pretty much the same. Pre-draft, Ryan was rated between the late 2nd and 4th round. Pre-draft/pre-arrest, Dennard was also considered a 2nd-to-4th round talent.

Ryan is 5-11, 191 with 31.3 inch arms. He ran a 4.56 40. Dennard is 5-10, 204 with 30 inch arms and ran a 4.55 40. His vert was better than Ryan's and it shows in his abilities to play the ball, but that's about the only differentiator I see between these two in terms of raw ability. That alone (the ability to play the ball well) is no small thing, but let's not make it out like we are comparing Darrelle Revis and Ellis Hobbs here.

Your listing is correct on their heights, but both are 5-10 plus and 5-11 plus, thus closer to 5-11 and 6-0 foot. For that matter Devin McCourty is 5-10 plus. and closer to 5-11 too.

So they are really that size, not some 5-8 or 5-9 guy listed very generously at 5-10 and adding a missing 10-or 15 pounds as well. We really do have a pretty large secondary.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Yes. this appears to be an adjustment that BB has made in his thinking about the CB position, The league is now full of very big receivers; and the 5-8 very fast smurf maybe there where the ball and receiver are, but he can't stop the catch.

Agreed. I'd think the problem isn't so much the size of the receivers, as the fact that once you get off the LOS you can't even touch them. You either win at the line or you lose.

The Haynesworth offseason seems to have been a bit of a watershed for Bill. Switched to 40 fronts. Went out and grabbed a 3-tech and some hybrid rusher types (Haynesworth, Ellis) and some 4-3 ends (Carter, Anderson). Took a huge CB at 33 and and went all-press on the outside in the first few games (with disastrous early results). Dumped the team's best cover-2 guy (Sanders) who had no place in the new defense. Hell, drafted a new MLB two years after finding a good one in Spikes, who better fit his new ideal.

I'd argue BB switched up his thinking in that offseason, and the product on the field is just starting to catch up (between injuries to guys like Dowling, and replacing guys like Chung and Cunningham who were holdovers of the previous defensive model).

 

[Oswlek]

Ryan was not as highly rated coming out as Dennard was, so it's misleading to state their pedigree was the same. In some circles Dennard was viewed as a late first rounder (Ryan never was), then his fight/ejection with Alshon Jeffrey happened, dropping his stock. Then his not elite combine times dropped it further down before his arrest made his stock non-existent.

In terms of coverage abilities, Dennard is better than him right now and was in college. The scouting report on Ryan is clear that his skills are not suitable to playing on an island on the outside where he is easily burnable. Dennard is good at being on an island. A lot of guys have similar physical appearances, but their skills aren't the same. That's not to say Ryan can't be as good as Dennard, but right now Dennard is better at those things. Ryan can still develop.

Walter football had pretty much the exact same concerns about Dennard. Strong press, not great when forced to stick with someone 1:1 for too long.

WalterFootball.com: 2012 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Alfonzo Dennard

I would hope Dennard is better at those things, he's been with the team a full year longer with an offseason in the system. But it appears that you might be overstating the difference between their pre-draft scouting reports.

Dennard ran 4.48 at the combine. Ryan ran 4.53. No idea where you're getting your numbers.

While that is really a meaningless distinction, the link above says Dennard was 4.51. Ultimately, whether it was 4.55 or 4.48, that is all pretty much the same thing.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

The fastest electronically timed 40 is actually Chris Johnson's at 4.24, not Primetime's. Deion Sanders while obviously one of the fastest corners in the league during his hey day never ran such times electronically. Plenty of guys have mythological and false 40s like Darrell Green and Bo Jackson's supposed sub-4.10 times. None of these are actually proven electronically so thus they cannot be taken at face value.

Players on a whole are getting bigger, faster, and stronger. That's not even really debatable. The fastest players from each era are all around the same speed, yes, but the collective players of this current era are way above those guys from back then.

Regarding data, that's human evolution. People are faster, stronger, bigger today that they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. If you honestly believe that guys from the 80s and 90s are on 2013 level then I don't what to tell you. Because it should obvious to anyone who puts game tape and compares those eras to now.

We're going down a road I didn't mean to, it's obviously without question that players are larger and faster on average than in the past. I was more specifically (and not effectively as I was not specific) referring to the idea that Law was considered fast for the time and that it was a different era in terms of how a corner could be effective. I think there are still a number of corners that are allowed to play physical at the line and that aren't speed demons, Haden and Talib are examples. My main point is really that technique, ability to play physical and ball skills are always what makes a corner effective over 40 yard dash time, whatever the era.

Certainly wasn't trying to debate the notion of 260 lb guards being the same size and speed as current players, etc.

 

[Ozymandias]

Walter football had pretty much the exact same concerns about Dennard. Strong press, not great when forced to stick with someone 1:1 for too long.

WalterFootball.com: 2012 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Alfonzo Dennard

I would hope Dennard is better at those things, he's been with the team a full year longer with an offseason in the system. But it appears that you might be overstating the difference between their pre-draft scouting reports.

It appears that you are doing the same with Ryan's scouting report though. In terms of coverage abilities Ryan is more like Arrington than he is like Dennard.

We're going down a road I didn't mean to, it's obviously without question that players are larger and faster on average than in the past...

Certainly wasn't trying to debate the notion of 260 lb guards being the same size and speed as current players, etc.

Fair enough. My initial point was that during Law's era a 4.50-40 wasn't looked at in the same light as it is today because the athletes back then collectively weren't as big, fast, or strong as they are today. So the basis on which they were gauged was different.

 

[Harrisoned!]

Dennard ran 4.48 at the combine. Ryan ran 4.53. No idea where you're getting your numbers.

Alfonzo Dennard Draft Profile ? NFL.com

Logan Ryan Draft Profile ? NFL.com

Ryan - 4.56
Dennard 4.55

NFLDraftScout.com and CBS Sports both had Dennard as a 3rd-4th round pick. Pro Football Weekly had him as 2nd-3rd round. NOBODY had him as even a fringe 1st round pick.

NFL.com had Ryan as a 3rd/4th rounder, WalterFootball had him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick, SBNation noted he was listed as mostly 2nd/3rd round but some scouts including Rob Rang had him as a 1st rounder, and CBS had him as a 3rd round pick.

They were basically the same caliber of prospect. Dennard was more thickly-built and had better leaping ability; Ryan is a bit longer and showed really good ball skills himself in college, as well as much more aggressive run support. They were both considered picks between 60-120 depending on the scout you trust.

 

[Oswlek]

It appears that you are doing the same with Ryan's scouting report though. In terms of coverage abilities Ryan is more like Arrington than he is like Dennard.

I'm doing the "same thing" as what? This reply went right over my head.

 

[Ozymandias]

NOBODY had him as even a fringe 1st round pick.

That's not accurate. Most of those publications were after his infamous fight with Alshon Jeffrey and the poor game he had therein.

Dennard and Jeffery, both of whom are viewed as likely first-round draft picks, were both ejected in the third quarter of the game after they got into a fight. Dennard and Jeffery jawed at each other, shoved each other and eventually punches were thrown, and both guys got the boot.​

New England drafted Dennard in the seventh round, and afterward, coach Bill Belichick said that while Dennard’s draft stock dropped after the arrest, the team still felt like a player so talented he was once discussed as a likely first-round pick was worth a chance in the seventh round.​

NEPD Staff Writer: Tony Santorsa

With the 224th overall pick in the 2012 NFL Draft, the New England Patriots selected cornerback Alfonzo Dennard out of Nebraska—and let me tell you one thing: This pick was an absolute steal.

Dennard might have came with some character issues, as he was arrested in late April was he allegedly punched a police officer in Lincoln, Nebraska—but prior to his arrest, I had Dennard going in either the late first round or in the second or third rounds.​

In the weeks leading up to the 2012 NFL Draft, former Nebraska cornerback Alfonzo Dennard was seen by most as a late first - early second round draft pick. In fact, there were a number of mock drafts that had Dennard going to the Patriots with the second of their first round picks.​

There was lots of data out there that Dennard was highly rated prior to his off the field issues. To suggest otherwise doesn't frame the whole situation properly.

I'm doing the "same thing" as what? This reply went right over my head.

You made this statement:

But it appears that you might be overstating the difference between their pre-draft scouting reports.

I stated you're doing the same thing by overstating his skills in relation to Dennard's (because you are). You're claiming their scouting report is similar and I'm saying their cover skills aren't really that close despite what the report says because both of them are good at things the other isn't so good at.

Dennard is an outside corner, while Ryan is better in the slot. Their skills aren't really comparable in that regard. Given their skillset, Ryan would probably struggle on the outside on an island, while Dennard would struggle in the slot as quick twitch pass receivers. See? That's the differing quality with both players despite what that scouting report says. Thus, we can easily make the claim that they are not that similar at all.

 

[Hudson Pats Fan]

I still dont get it why they didnt draft Marcus Cooper over Beauharnais.
I have one question. Is there possibility if Talib gets hurt for more than 4 weeks that they sign Dowling?

I think this board would explode if Dowling were to be re-signed!
Wouldn't shock me though