Why did this team sign Tebow?

[Big_Wheel]

I understand that quarterbacks have slow starts. Please list the quarterbacks who had a completion percentage of under 50% for their first 3 years and ended up being quality starting quarterbacks.

Tim only started 16 games or one year. I am sure there are plenty but let's try...

John Elway 1983 - 47.5%

Terry Bradshaw 1970 - 38.1% , 1971 - 54.4% , 1972 - 47.7%, 1973 - 49.4%, 1974 - 45.3%

Eli Manning 2004 - 48.2%

Should I find more or is that cool for now?

 

[NYCPatsFan]

Don't know if this was raised and responded to earlier: why is there no connection between the title and the options on this poll?

 

[Big_Wheel]

Why not wait until closer to the end of pre-season and let things play out? Do you honestly believe that Bellichick is being held hostage and isn't going to do whatever is in the Patriots best interest? Do you honestly believe that the front office will not do whatever Bill wants done for this team? I would be willing to say that Bill has a pretty good idea what he is doing and most of you don't. If he cuts Tim, great, move on and have a wonderful year and, if not, hahahahaha!

There is a lot of butt-hurt going on in here and I am surprised that some folks didn't get banned for all the "Jesus" references earlier. You can't even pull that kind of stuff on GG and continue posting.

 

[mgteich]

You are free to believe that Tebow is in his second year. That is your option. Bradshaw is a good example for those who hope that Tebow will completely turn around his game.

Tim only started 16 games or one year. I am sure there are plenty but let's try...

John Elway 1983 - 47.5%

Terry Bradshaw 1970 - 38.1% , 1971 - 54.4% , 1972 - 47.7%, 1973 - 49.4%, 1974 - 45.3%

Eli Manning 2004 - 48.2%

Should I find more or is that cool for now?

 

[SDI_Gator]

Tim only started 16 games or one year. I am sure there are plenty but let's try...

John Elway 1983 - 47.5%

Terry Bradshaw 1970 - 38.1% , 1971 - 54.4% , 1972 - 47.7%, 1973 - 49.4%, 1974 - 45.3%

Eli Manning 2004 - 48.2%

Should I find more or is that cool for now?

The first 2 played in an era that was very different than the game that is played now.

I think it's just not cut and dry as to how Tebow would have developed or will develop in the future. Can his passing numbers get better? Sure. But that wouldn't take much.

I just think Tebow deserved to hang out and learn from elway and manning but wasn't given the chance to. Last year he was given a job as a wildcat qb and completed 6 of 8 passes (1 drop would have been a TD..) and should have been at least given a game to see what happened. But it didn't happen, and it looks terrible because we all know how bad Sanchez is.

Blah. I want Tebow on the bench this year, maybe a few snaps at punt protector (which he did well at last year) and maybe in a year we revisit this again next year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

"that's all we had to go on". Incorrect. You could have taken the overall context into account, which is what was done in NY.

That's also what was done in both Minnesota and Jax after 2011, and in Tennessee after 2012. Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder were right there at the bottom of the stats with Tebow. But people weren't screaming about them not being NFL QB's or crying for them to be cut.

No, people were correctly pointing out that they were YOUNG QBs learning how to play in the NFL, and they were each given TIME. Ponder seems to be on an upward path while Gabbert looks to have gone the other way.

Jake Locker is in a similar situation coming off of 2012. He didn't top the rankings either, but the Titans are giving him time to develop.

BTW, yeah, Eli had serious flaws in his game. He couldn't read defenses coming out of Ole Miss and his passing was seriously inconsistent. Even at the end of his 2nd season, his comp % was 52.9%.

The difference between Tebow and Gabbert/Locker/Ponder is that the latter group is comprised if guys who don't have to completely re-learn the mechanics of throwing a football in order to be consistent passers.

Although, in Gabbert's case, they should have given up on him last year. The guy has no pocket presence at all; doesn't take a pro-caliber coach to conclude that he's not going to succeed in the NFL. I'd take Tebow over Gabbert any day.

The problem with using Eli as a yardstick is that there's a reason why he's the one QB that everyone points to after their young QB sucks for 2 years. It's because he's just about the only QB in the modern era who has been that bad at the beginning of his career and then evolved into a good player. For every one Eli, there's dozens of guys like Mark Sanchez. If you cut bait early on a guy like that, statistically you're probably doing the right thing. Because the odds are pretty overwhelming that you're not missing out on an Eli Manning, but instead sparing your team of 4 more years of Brady Quinn.

For every team in the 2004-2007 Giants position, who have been rewarded for their patience, how many teams have had their rebuilding efforts set back by the better part of a decade because they were stuck with a bad young QB that they were afraid to move on from?

 

[Demosthenes]

Ah there it is, the "biased" card. The go-to for Tebow fan when someone says something about Tim that they don't want to hear, no matter how benign. Right.

I would be interested to hear what your take is on why Elway decided to get rid of him - especially given the fact he could have signed Manning and kept Tim as a backup to "develop"... and whether and why you consider that to be the "objective" view.

Good lord, it's apparent that you don't even know what confirmation bias means.

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses

If you will, it's the old adage "when you carry a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Basically, you are convinced that Tebow is a terrible QB. Therefore, the "reason" why Elway traded him away was because he's a terrible QB.

Like I said, confirmation bias.



Why did Elway get rid of him ? Any number of reasons. We can start with "clearing the deck" for Manning. Kind of like how Elway shipped Orton out after Tebow took over as the starter. Or how the Giants released Warner after the 2004 season. When a starter gets replaced, he's often on a new team the following year.

Or, we can look at the fact that when a new guy takes over as the coach, GM, or head of football operations, they like to clean house and go with guys that THEY chose. Like what Reggie Mackenzie did in Oakland. Just after Josh got fired, articles started going up talking about how Tebow had lost his main supporter in the Broncos organization.

We could also look at Elway's belief that in the short term, Denver would need to have created a separate offense for Tebow. He apparently didn't see it the same way BB does. He gave an interview in which he talked about not wanting to have a 2nd offense.

Then you have Elway's impatience, i.e. not wanting to spend the time necessary to develop Tebow. This comes down to him not seeing the same things that BB and Josh saw.

Then you have Tebow's contract. At the time, it was much more than what he's making now. It was much cheaper to grab a QB in the third round (or whenever they got Osweiler).

It might also be that Elway thought he was doing Tebow a "solid". Peyton signed a 5 year contract and it was expected that he'd play most of it.

That's about a half dozen perfectly valid reasons for trading Tebow instead of keeping him to be the #2.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Tim only started 16 games or one year. I am sure there are plenty but let's try...

John Elway 1983 - 47.5%

Terry Bradshaw 1970 - 38.1% , 1971 - 54.4% , 1972 - 47.7%, 1973 - 49.4%, 1974 - 45.3%

Eli Manning 2004 - 48.2%

Should I find more or is that cool for now?

If you can only find one comparable in the last 30 years to make your point, then that's really not a winning argument.

 

[Brady6]

The stats for Tebow were from his 3 starts his rookie season and his 13 total starts his second year.

The stats for the 2nd QB are from his 7 starts his rookie year and his first 9 starts of his second year.

Something that should be added in is that the 2nd QB had a full camp and preseason under the "old" rules (meaning 2 a days were allowed) while Tebow had an abbreviated camp due to the lockout and it was conducted under the new CBA rules.

And no, he hasn't been with "the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer". He spent all of last freaking year under the direction of the woefully inept Tony Sparano and Matt Cavanaugh.

Like I said, you are ignoring ANY and ALL of the CONTEXT. You absolutely have to take other things into acct.

D what are you trying to sell me here? If you took Tebow’s entire career (35 games, 16 starts) and ranked them against the stats of qualifying QB’s stats during just the 2012 season you’d have the following.

2,422 yards – 27th
6.71 YDS/A – 26th
17 Passing TD – 24th
75.3 Rating – 28th

I’m really not sure what context can explain the fact that Tebow’s entire 3 year career combined places him at the bottom against other QB’s stats in just 2012 alone.

 

[chasa]

If you can only find one comparable in the last 30 years to make your point, then that's really not a winning argument.

I dunno, I think Tebow could spark our defense into carry the patriots to 5 titles.

 

[chasa]

D what are you trying to sell me here? If you took Tebow’s entire career (35 games, 16 starts) and ranked them against the stats of qualifying QB’s stats during just the 2012 season you’d have the following.

2,422 yards – 27th
6.71 YDS/A – 26th
17 Passing TD – 24th
75.3 Rating – 28th

I’m really not sure what context can explain the fact that Tebow’s entire 3 year career combined places him at the bottom against other QB’s stats in just 2012 alone.

Hes just.. hes got so much heart, and hes a good runner. and that heart. man you can't teach heart. Also here is a picture of him signing an autograph for a kid.

So much heart.

 

[Demosthenes]

The difference between Tebow and Gabbert/Locker/Ponder is that the latter group is comprised if guys who don't have to completely re-learn the mechanics of throwing a football in order to be consistent passers.

I'm guessing that you didn't watch Ponder and Gabbert that much in 2011

Although, in Gabbert's case, they should have given up on him last year. The guy has no pocket presence at all; doesn't take a pro-caliber coach to conclude that he's not going to succeed in the NFL. I'd take Tebow over Gabbert any day.

I don't know about Gabbert. There's lots of problems down in Jax. He could very well be a large part of it, then again, maybe not.

The problem with using Eli as a yardstick is that there's a reason why he's the one QB that everyone points to after their young QB sucks for 2 years. It's because he's just about the only QB in the modern era who has been that bad at the beginning of his career and then evolved into a good player. For every one Eli, there's dozens of guys like Mark Sanchez. If you cut bait early on a guy like that, statistically you're probably doing the right thing. Because the odds overwhelmingly state that you're not missing out on an Eli Manning, but instead sparing your team of 4 more years of Brady Quinn.

We could go with Alex Smith who didn't look too good for well over 2 years


Care to go back to Drew Bledsoe at 49.9% his first year with a passer rating of 65 ? Or Donovan McNabb and his 49.1% and 61.1 passer rating ?

that's the reason that most young QBs, especially those taken higher in the draft (right move or not) get more than 16 games to see how they develop.

 

[sb1]

Good lord, it's apparent that you don't even know what confirmation bias means.

I appreciate the vocabulary lesson but I know what confirmation bias is, and yes, confirmation bias has its very roots in bias.

And speaking of bias, it is interesting that conspicuously absent from your response... along with your reasoning of why your view is "objective" and mine is not... was the fact that there very well may be truth to the possibility that yes, Elway showed Tim the door because he was not viewed as a viable QB prospect, the future of the Broncos, that would learn from Manning and quite possibly become a starter soon... especially given the fact there were concerns about Manning's abilities with his neck surgery... and thus no point to keeping him on the roster. There's really no objective reason to discount the possibility.

I happen to think think this move is extremely telling about what Elway thought of him as a QB. And keeping in mind I am only talking about Elway's view... not mine. Confirmation bias indeed.

 

[sb1]

Hes just.. hes got so much heart, and hes a good runner. and that heart. man you can't teach heart. Also here is a picture of him signing an autograph for a kid.

So much heart.

He beat the Steelers!1!1!1!1!

 

[Huckleberry1]

The only really good use for a 3rd quarterback is to play the last half of preseason games. One can argue for using a position for a developmental 3rd quarterback. I wouldn't since we have so many positions already used on developmental players. Besides, a 4th year quarterback with a completion percentage of under 50% who has playoff experience, is NOT a developmental quarterback.

For, Tebow was given every chance to unseat Mallett, or at least make it close (in which case, we might have kept both to fight it out next preseason). The reality is that Tebow has three more major opportunities (plus scrimmages and practices) to show his stuff).

Honestly mg I have seen enough of Tebow's "stuff" to convince me beyond any doubt that he simply cannot throw accurately enough to be an NFL QB, and beyond that I seriously question his ability to read defenses and process information quickly enough to be any good at that aspect of the job as well, and for the Patriots those are the 2 most important qualifications to play the position. Now it's possible that Mallett will play so poorly that they will really question his ability to back up Brady and have to make other arrangements, but those arrangements shouldn't include moving Tebow up the depth chart but Mallett either down it or off of it. Now i don't expect that to happen but even if it did it would simply mean that getting rid of Tebow and getting a QB in here who can actually play the position was even more of a priority.


My bottom line is this, if Edelman is going to make this team then use him as the QB to get ready for the read option QB's they will face this season, and if not go get a UDFA read option QB and put them on the practice squad to get them ready. Release Tebow after this game and let him sign on somewhere where he may be of some use instead of waiting for last cuts when the going gets tougher.

 

[Demosthenes]

D what are you trying to sell me here? If you took Tebow’s entire career (35 games, 16 starts) and ranked them against the stats of qualifying QB’s stats during just the 2012 season you’d have the following.

2,422 yards – 27th
6.71 YDS/A – 26th
17 Passing TD – 24th
75.3 Rating – 28th

I’m really not sure what context can explain the fact that Tebow’s entire 3 year career combined places him at the bottom against other QB’s stats in just 2012 alone.

First of all, that only takes into account his passing yardage and TDs. It ignores the impact of his running ability.

Secondly, you just stated that the guy trying to secure the THIRD STRING QB job on the Pats ranked 24th - 28th against NFL starters.


Why wouldn't you want a guy as a 3rd string QB who is still developing yet already ranks higher than a number of freaking starting QBs in the NFL ?

That one is just mind boggling.

 

[mgteich]

So, we are discussing why the teams with the worst quarterbacks in the league didn't sign Tebow to compete for a starting roster spot. Certainly, Sanchez, Ponder and Gabbert qualify. I don't know. Of course, the jets did sign Tebow. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is the judgement of the 32 GM's that Tebow may not have a future as an NFL quarterback. Teams with top quarterbacks and top teams have the ability to carry the 3rd quarterback. So, Tebow is here auditioning for another three games.

I would have signed Tebow in JAX last year or this. They need to sell seats. Tebow could easily be the #2 or even #1 QB there. But then, so could Mallett.

But the patriots are NOT one of the teams with a poor quarterback, or even one with a terrible backup quarterback.

I'm guessing that you didn't watch Ponder and Gabbert that much in 2011




I don't know about Gabbert. There's lots of problems down in Jax. He could very well be a large part of it, then again, maybe not.




We could go with Alex Smith who didn't look too good for well over 2 years


Care to go back to Drew Bledsoe at 49.9% his first year with a passer rating of 65 ? Or Donovan McNabb and his 49.1% and 61.1 passer rating ?

that's the reason that most young QBs, especially those taken higher in the draft (right move or not) get more than 16 games to see how they develop.

 

[manxman2601]

I appreciate the vocabulary lesson but I know what confirmation bias is, and yes, confirmation bias has its very roots in bias.

And speaking of bias, it is interesting that conspicuously absent from your response... along with your reasoning of why your view is "objective" and mine is not... was the fact that there very well may be truth to the possibility that yes, Elway showed Tim the door because he was not viewed as a viable QB prospect that would learn from Manning and quite possibly become a starter soon... especially given the fact there were concerns about Manning's abilities with his neck surgery... and there was no future for Tebow as a Bronco and thus no point to keeping him on the roster. There's really no objective reason to discount the possibility.

I happen to think think this move is extremely telling about what Elway thought of him as a QB.

Not followed this debate (again) but I fail to see the relevance. All that matter is what BB and Josh McDaniels think of him. And for now, pretty good would be the best way to sum up their feelings about him.

 

[sb1]

Not followed this debate (again) but I fail to see the relevance. All that matter is what BB and Josh McDaniels think of him.

I was responding to a topic about Elway, Tebow and the Broncos, hence the relevance.

And for now, pretty good would be the best way to sum up their feelings about him.

Another performance like the other night and I wouldn't be surprised if that feeling changes quite a bit....

 

[Demosthenes]

I appreciate the vocabulary lesson but I know what confirmation bias is, and yes, confirmation bias has its very roots in bias.

And speaking of bias, it is interesting that conspicuously absent from your response... along with your reasoning of why your view is "objective" and mine is not... was the fact that there very well may be truth to the possibility that yes, Elway showed Tim the door because he was not viewed as a viable QB prospect, the future of the Broncos, that would learn from Manning and quite possibly become a starter soon... especially given the fact there were concerns about Manning's abilities with his neck surgery... and thus no point to keeping him on the roster. There's really no objective reason to discount the possibility.

I happen to think think this move is extremely telling about what Elway thought of him as a QB. And keeping in mind I am only talking about Elway's view... not mine. Confirmation bias indeed.

Sure, it's a possibility. You weren't claiming that. I do believe that you claimed that it was the reason.