Support For DE's

[ATippett56]

I didn't like Francis at DE, I did however think he was impactful as a 3Tech, I'd like to see him spend the majority of his time there, and have more explosive players like Benard and Buchanan see the snaps on the outside.

For the 2013-14 NFL Season, the backup three techniques for the New England Patriots:

Armstead
Forston
Vellano

For the 2014-15 NFL Season, the defensive tackle position is addressed in post #6 in the following thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/1034735-2014-mock-draft-thread.html

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Support For DE's

For the 2013-14 NFL Season, the backup three techniques for the New England Patriots:

Armstead
Forston
Vellano

For the 2014-15 NFL Season, the defensive tackle position is addressed in post #6 in the following thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/1034735-2014-mock-draft-thread.html

I don't see the 3Tech depth chart shaping up the same way, nor do I give Vellano much of a chance to make the roster.

 

[Nunchucks]

Francis
Bequette
Bernard

Cunningham cannot stay healthy, he is solid when he is, but if you cannot count on him, I think the other guys get a leg up. Vega and Buchanan could go to the practice squad. Neither has made any noise in camp.

 

[Brady6]

Francis
Bequette
Bernard

Cunningham cannot stay healthy, he is solid when he is, but if you cannot count on him, I think the other guys get a leg up. Vega and Buchanan could go to the practice squad. Neither has made any noise in camp.

Buchanan won't make it onto the practice squad; a team will scoop him up. He dropped in the draft because of character issues, but he certainly would of been a priority undrafted free agent and almost certain to be on a 53 man roster on some NFL team.

Matching Buchanan up against a Ezekiel Ansah a player widely considered to be a “freak” for his size, strength, and athleticism.

Buchanan/Ansah

HT- 6’6/6’5
WT- 255/271
40- 4.65/4.56
20- 2.67/2.66
10- 1.65/1.62
Bench- 22/21
Vertical- 33/34.5
Broad- 09”05”/09”10”
Shuffle- 4.44/4.26
3-Cone- 6.91/7.11

Buchanan also had better college statistics and played in a more difficult conference. Needless to say this kid isn’t going to make it onto to the practice squad, in my opinion anyway.

 

[Nunchucks]

Buchanan won't make it onto the practice squad; a team will scoop him up. He dropped in the draft because of character issues, but he certainly would of been a priority undrafted free agent and almost certain to be on a 53 man roster on some NFL team.

Matching Buchanan up against a Ezekiel Ansah a player widely considered to be a “freak” for his size, strength, and athleticism.

Buchanan/Ansah

HT- 6’6/6’5
WT- 255/271
40- 4.65/4.56
20- 2.67/2.66
10- 1.65/1.62
Bench- 22/21
Vertical- 33/34.5
Broad- 09”05”/09”10”
Shuffle- 4.44/4.26
3-Cone- 6.91/7.11

Buchanan also had better college statistics and played in a more difficult conference. Needless to say this kid isn’t going to make it onto to the practice squad, in my opinion anyway.

You do realize that for a team to "scoop up" Buchanan that they would have to add him to their 53 man roster. That means cutting a guy that they had on their roster all the way through camp. Sure, it does happen, but it isn't as big a risk as you make it out. Furthermore, the guys the Patriots do have on the roster right now are doing more than him, why cut one of those guys in favor of somebody who has done nothing? If the guy isn't doing anything of note in camp, then why would they keep him on the roster?

As for measurables..meh, lots of guys have great measurables.

 

[Brady6]

You do realize that for a team to "scoop up" Buchanan that they would have to add him to their 53 man roster. That means cutting a guy that they had on their roster all the way through camp. Sure, it does happen, but it isn't as big a risk as you make it out. Furthermore, the guys the Patriots do have on the roster right now are doing more than him, why cut one of those guys in favor of somebody who has done nothing? If the guy isn't doing anything of note in camp, then why would they keep him on the roster?

As for measurables..meh, lots of guys have great measurables.

It happens all the time; Smith, Koppa, Salas, Moore those are just some of the names that come to mind.

I don't think he is doing less in camp either, everything I have read has been positive regarding Buchanan. My belief is most people are sending him to the practice squad based on his draft status being a 7th rounder.

 

[VrabelJr]

Benard, Bequette, Buchanan and Francis make the team. Buchanon makes it as mostly a Special Teamer but continues to get better through practice.

In regards to that post about us having three back up 3-tech DTs -- you're crazy. Forston is a lock and likely active every game day. Other spot depends on if Armstead gets healthy or not. I could see it going to Vellano (game day scratch) and PUPing Armstead.

 

[mgteich]

I'm with you except for Buchanan. I don't think that we'll carry 6 DE's; 5 DE's and 4 DT's seems more likely.

If Buchanan is to win a ST position, then he is competing with Cole, Ebner, Koutouvides, Rivera, Beuharnais and Tarpinian.

Benard, Bequette, Buchanan and Francis make the team. Buchanon makes it as mostly a Special Teamer but continues to get better through practice.

In regards to that post about us having three back up 3-tech DTs -- you're crazy. Forston is a lock and likely active every game day. Other spot depends on if Armstead gets healthy or not. I could see it going to Vellano (game day scratch) and PUPing Armstead.

 

[Urgent]

The tea leafs will be on the table Friday night.
Who plays before whom?
How do the second-quarter guys, playing against other second-quarter guys, compare to the fourth quarter guys, playing against other fourth-quarter guys?
We'll finally have a data point other than the varying reports from different folks watching drills.

 

[JackBauer]

You do realize that for a team to "scoop up" Buchanan that they would have to add him to their 53 man roster. That means cutting a guy that they had on their roster all the way through camp.

Somehow I don't really see this being an issue for, say, the bottom 12 teams in the league.

 

[captain stone]

Yep; if Jacksonville claimed the likes of Love & Deaderick, then they'll likely claim Buchanan too.

 

[Ring 6]

Somehow I don't really see this being an issue for, say, the bottom 12 teams in the league.

It always has been in the past. We aren't talking about guys who have proven they can play we are talking about guys who failed to make a team.
We could be a 19-0 team and that doesnt mean our 50th-57th guys are markedly better than anyone elses (other than to posters ).

 

[Ring 6]

Yep; if Jacksonville claimed the likes of Love & Deaderick, then they'll likely claim Buchanan too.

Love and Deaderick have been starters on playoff teams.
Buchanan had 4 sacks in his senior year in college and fell to the 7th round.

 

[Brady6]

Yep; if Jacksonville claimed the likes of Love & Deaderick, then they'll likely claim Buchanan too.

I believe the waiver claim order goes worst to first, so actually the only team that we know Love and Deaderick weren't claimed by is KC.

 

[Brady6]

Love and Deaderick have been starters on playoff teams.
Buchanan had 4 sacks in his senior year in college and fell to the 7th round.

Do agree he is a talented 7th rounder who had 4 sacks as a senior in college?

 

[Brady6]

I'm with you except for Buchanan. I don't think that we'll carry 6 DE's; 5 DE's and 4 DT's seems more likely.

If Buchanan is to win a ST position, then he is competing with Cole, Ebner, Koutouvides, Rivera, Beuharnais and Tarpinian.

Last season we entered week one with 6 defensive ends and 5 defensive tackles (see below).

DE (6)
C. Jones
Ninkovich
Cunningham
Bequette
Francis
Scott

DT (5)
Wilfork
Love
Brace
Deaderick
Fortson

I envision us with 10 on the 53 man roster and Armstead on PUP, if Armstead gets healthy then I think the competition is between Francis and Cunningham, or Bequette and Benard. I believe Buchanan is one of the least likely to be cut, I do not care what his draft status was, his talent is not indicative of that his selection, if he had come out in 2012 he would of been a first or second rounder.

DE/LB (3)
Ninkovich
Benard
Buchanan

DT/DE (3)
Armstead (PUP)
Cunningham
Francis

DT/NT (3)
Wilfork
Kelly
Fortson

DE (2)
Jones
Bequette

 

[Ring 6]

Do agree he is a talented 7th rounder who had 4 sacks as a senior in college?

I put a lot more stock into what players actually do than into dreams about what they might be.
We have people on this board dismissing that Wes Welker accomplished more as a receiver here than almost any receiver ever has in the same time frame, and acting as if anyone can step in who looks quick or caught a few passes.
High level production and achievement is a talent of its own, and underachieving/overachieving IS an innate quality in some.

 

[mgteich]

You seem to judge "talent" on camp measurables, and a bit on college production (treating it as if it were pro production).

If Buchanan is a 1st or 2nd round talent, then 31 teams have made a major error in not drafting him. He could be this year's Dennard, or not.

IMHO, no player makes the 53 man roster based on measurables, not one.

I do not care what his draft status was, his talent is not indicative of that his selection, if he had come out in 2012 he would of been a first or second rounder.

 

[Brady6]

I put a lot more stock into what players actually do than into dreams about what they might be.
We have people on this board dismissing that Wes Welker accomplished more as a receiver here than almost any receiver ever has in the same time frame, and acting as if anyone can step in who looks quick or caught a few passes.
High level production and achievement is a talent of its own, and underachieving/overachieving IS an innate quality in some.

A- I don’t diminish what Welker did; he was likely the best slot receiver to ever step on a field. Unfortunately he is no longer here; and comments like the ones he made today I do not think are necessary, he was given a tremendous opportunity by Kraft and Belichick that may or may not of been given elsewhere and I feel that he should have a high level of respect for this organization no matter how it ended than to pout in the media.

Regarding dreams about what might be; I do not know if that is the case with Buchanan as he actually had very good production in his junior season and it dipped last season due to a broken jaw resulting in significant weight loss. I believe much like Dennard he slipped because of circumstances and not because of talent and performance. I could be wrong but that is my personal opinion at this time, but I look forward to seeing him in live game action this Friday.

You seem to judge "relent" on camp measurables, and a bit on college production (treating it as if it were pro production).

If Buchanan is a 1st or 2nd round talent, then 31 teams have made a major error in not drafting him. He could be this year's Dennard, or not.

IMHO, no player makes the 53 man roster based on measurables, not one.

M- As I said above I think that for the most part Buchanan had solid college stats, I compared his sack totals with other recent draftees below in terms of career sacks in college.

Smith- 14.5
Jordan- 14.5
Buchanan- 14 sacks
Watt- 11.5 sacks
C. Jones- 10 sacks
Pierre Paul- 6.5 sacks
Ansah- 4.5 sacks

So looking at these stats and his messurables I’m uncertain what you’re implying I’m doing for Buchanan that is any different than the approach we took with Jones and all these other teams took with their top draftees. His college numbers are comparable and his messurables are just as good as many of them. It’s very rare that you see a guy enter the NFL like Von Miller who had 33 college sacks in a top conference.

As I said above I could be wrong about Buchanan; but it’s not because I doing anything different for him than I did for Chandler Jones last season.


On you last point about measurable's not getting you on the roster; I stand to slightly disagree, a player like Dennard barely participated in camp or the preseason and he made the roster last season anyway. Measurable's aren't everything but they do matter, you draft players based on potential not based on what they are, if that was the case Bequette should have been way ahead of Jones as he had 23.5 sacks in college to Jones’s 10 sacks.

I’m not trying to create any animosity between any of us; I just think you guys are letting Buchanan’s 7th round status sway your feelings about him slightly. Or as I said I could be wrong and he will do nothing in the preseason and end up else where. I think all 3 of us can agree we’re are excited to see what happens

 

[Ring 6]

It happens all the time; Smith, Koppa, Salas, Moore those are just some of the names that come to mind.

I don't think he is doing less in camp either, everything I have read has been positive regarding Buchanan. My belief is most people are sending him to the practice squad based on his draft status being a 7th rounder.

Salas wasnt a rookie, he was a vet who was cut. And he was picked up in November.
Same with Moore, cut in season and landed elsewhere.
Kopa is not an example either as he was on practice squads when cut
Smith was picked up by the Bills and went on to total 24 receiving yards in 2 years, so I don't think we lost anything.