RFA Emmanuel Sanders visits Pats 3/16; signs offer sheet 4/10, sheet matched 4/14

[patfanken]

. She has never worked for and was never employed by the top media outfits like NESN,CSNNE or ESPN Boston.

IN some respects all that could be viewed as pluses

 

[Kontradiction]

I would certainly never say never - but Tavon Austin is simply not a Jeff Fisher type of receiver. He prefers 6'0+ deep burners/physical guys.

Patterson or Hunter if they go WR in the first round, I'd put money on that.

Patterson's route running is trash.

 

[patfanken]

There are some things that I like about Tavon Austin's game, however I really think that he's going to be vastly over drafted by some team hoping to duplicate the Wes Welker phenomenon.

I've read some scouting reports that after gushing about his positives point out that he's not a "hands" catcher, and catches too many passes with his body. Some scouts aren't sure how strong his hands are. That he ran a very limited route tree in college with most of his receptions coming on short slants, and crossing patterns, and most of his receiving yardage coming from YAC off those routes. It should also be questioned whether someone that small will be able to get off the LOS in the NFL, or take the physical pounding

And while he's a phenomenal athlete, I can't imagine risking a late first round pick on him (or any slot receiver for that matter), let alone one in the top 15. If BB would have a problem drafting a big fast WR in the first round, there is not way he'd draft someone Austin's size.

He might have a great NFL career as a kick returner, and a 3rd down back/slot receiver. But you don't draft a guy in top 15 or even the bottom of the first round to fill that role. And I pray to God that the Pats don't break precedence this season to draft him

 

[Ozymandias]

I would certainly never say never - but Tavon Austin is simply not a Jeff Fisher type of receiver. He prefers 6'0+ deep burners/physical guys.

Patterson or Hunter if they go WR in the first round, I'd put money on that.

Perhaps that's a possibility as well. Though the Rams seem really high on their second year WRs Chris Givens and Brian Quick. Both fit the mold as deep burners/physical WRs that you alluded too. What the Rams are likely looking for in this draft is Danny Amendola's long term replacement in the slot. Austin is the best fit for that.

Also keep in mind if I'm not mistaken since 2001 only 2 WRs 5 ft 9 or under have gone in the first round of the draft, both being Santana Moss and Kendall Wright. Moss of course ran a 4.3 40 whilst Wright was timed in the low 4.6s to high 4.5s though he always had great separation ability and played significantly faster than that on tape. Its very rare that these types of players of this build get drafted in round one. So there's obviously a great risk with these types of players that every team seemingly avoids for the past 11 years in round 1 including Fisher's Titans/Rams.

Austin might just be far too alluring to pass up though. Given his marvelous quickness, change of direction skills, acceleration and legit 4.3 wheels, its a virtual certainty that he's going to be drafted in the top 20 and since the Rams have 2 picks in that range or so. There's no reason to believe that they won't take a chance on him, because someone else will.

 

[goheels22002]

This is the guy who got fined for faking an injury and saving the Steelers a time out. He'll fit right in. I wonder if he can operate a video camera.

Emmanuel Sanders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BritPat]

Perhaps that's a possibility as well. Though the Rams seem really high on their second year WRs Chris Givens and Brian Quick. Both fit the mold as deep burners/physical WRs that you alluded too. What the Rams are likely looking for in this draft is Danny Amendola's long term replacement in the slot. Austin is the best fit for that.

Also keep in mind if I'm not mistaken since 2001 only 2 WRs 5 ft 9 or under have gone in the first round of the draft, both being Santana Moss and Kendall Wright. Moss of course ran a 4.3 40 whilst Wright was timed in the low 4.6s to high 4.5s though he always had great separation ability and played significantly faster than that on tape. Its very rare that these types of players of this build get drafted in round one. So there's obviously a great risk with these types of players that every team seemingly avoids for the past 11 years in round 1 including Fisher's Titans/Rams.

Austin might just be far too alluring to pass up though. Given his marvelous quickness, change of direction skills, acceleration and legit 4.3 wheels, its a virtual certainty that he's going to be drafted in the top 20 and since the Rams have 2 picks in that range or so. There's no reason to believe that they won't take a chance on him, because someone else will.

That's a pretty good post, although Kendall Wright is 5'10 to start with.

What I'd say is, if you look at Fisher's teams down the years (and I have in detail, as per that post on NFLUK.com), they consist of receivers that are 6'0 plus with long speed. The only guy that wasn't who Fisher has relied on long term, was Derrick Mason. And he was a fourth round pick.

There's a list of names there (Britt, McCariens, Calico, Hill, Dyson etc) that are absolutely everything that Fisher likes in his guys. And look at the two guys the Rams took last year - Brian Quick (6'4) and Chris Givens (6'0, long speed) - they were typical Fisher guys. They picked up a FA before Christmas too, Raymond Radway - he's another 6'3, 200lb dude, along with Quick and Pettis.

They barely made a move to keep Amendola, and I think there's a reason for that.

I don't see them going WR in the first round, I think they're desperate for a Safety (like Vaccaro) and will take him if he's there. If he's not I think they trade that pick and take someone like Reid at #22.

I would not be shocked though to see them grab one of the big guys and then line up with Givens playing inside next year. Whether Bradford's the type of guy Fisher normally goes for is another matter, but I think you see the Rams playing a more vertical game next year.

 

[BritPat]

Patterson's route running is trash.

That may be true, but in Fisher's offense, all he'll need to run are posts, slants and deep outs.

 

[BritPat]

Another point, if Fisher really does want an Amendola replacement, he'll get much better value further down with someone like Swope (who's another 6'0+ receiver), or Marquise Goodwin.

 

[supafly]

This is the guy who got fined for faking an injury and saving the Steelers a time out. He'll fit right in. I wonder if he can operate a video camera.

Emmanuel Sanders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You must be a "closet Ravens fan...or a Jets fan posing as a troll."

 

[Ozymandias]

That's a pretty good post, although Kendall Wright is 5'10 to start with.

My apologies. I must of been thinking of something I recalled hearing during the long days of pre-draft innuendos. last year. Though if one were to change it too 5 ft 10 then only 2 more receivers were taken in round one that fit that mold; Lee Evans and Mark Clayton both of which ran in 4.3-4.4 range; neither of which is in the league anymore. This further exemplifies the prerequisite need for speed at that build/size. You rarely see a player that size get drafted that high unless they run that fast along with other unique skills, with Wright being the only exception though as stated he runs way faster than that forty time.

Moreover, I agree with a lot of what you've stated especially about Amendola, but that could also be attributed to the fact that he's an injury risk or has been during his time with the Rams more so than his height/weight/speed.

The Rams do want to get more vertical, hiring a Air Coryell disciple like Brian Schottenheimer proves that. However, by NFL standards Sam Bradford has very average arm strength to run that deep passing attack with succession. Though its not like Austin can't get vertical. He may play in the slot but he has great deep speed as well and unlike Ryan Swope he actually plays how fast he runs in the 40 on game days, if not faster. I still think he's the Rams target with one of their two first round picks.

As for the S position, if Vaccaro is available he's another option as well but I doubt he will slip that far. His skills match up well with today's NFL. Someone will likely nab him in the top 15. If he's gone I can see the Rams targeting FIU's Jonathan Cyprien who's rising fast up draft boards according to reports around the league. I doubt LSU's Eric Reid will get 1st round consideration. Judging from the tape Cyprien is a superior prospect to Reid.

 

[Ozymandias]

Another point, if Fisher really does want an Amendola replacement, he'll get much better value further down with someone like Swope (who's another 6'0+ receiver), or Marquise Goodwin.

Also just to add, I have a hard time seeing the Rams replacing one 'injury-risk' (I loathe this term) with another. Swope is about a concussion or so away from being another Austin Collie. Swope at this point is overrated. Prior to running a 4.3 40 at the combine given the medical concerns he was viewed as a 4-7 round guy at best, now I'm hearing ridiculous talk of him being a 2nd rounder. Nothing in his tape would suggest that anything better than a mid-rounder at best. His combine speed almost never shows on game days. And once again 4 concussions entering the NFL will not help his cause.

As for Goodwin, while he does have exceptional straight line speed to rank with some of the fastest men in the NFL today, he's at this point nothing more than a gadget player who likely won't see the field unless its on special teams for KR/PRs or end-arounds, screens on offense. His ability to actually play the game of football is mediocre at this point. His route running refinement is extremely limited and his catching prowess is well below average. It takes more than just running really fast to be actually be a great NFL player.

That's why Austin is so special. Unlike Goodwin he's actually shown he can play the position proficiently well as a pass catcher and isn't just a 'gadget guy' and carries zero 'injury risk' with never missing a day of practice despite his slight of build unlike Swope.

 

[goheels22002]

You must be a "closet Ravens fan...or a Jets fan posing as a troll."

Not really. I just love guys who are willing to do whatever it takes to gain an advantage. Let the whiners, whine.

Here it is: "...here comes the cramp..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsM051TDvJs

 

[supafly]

Not really. I just love guys who are willing to do whatever it takes to gain an advantage. Let the whiners, whine.

I'm only pulling your chain. I used the 2 most popular choices for patsfans comments on anyone who makes any statement regading anything anti-Patriot related. It was all in jest.

 

[goheels22002]

I'm only pulling your chain. I used the 2 most popular choices for patsfans comments on anyone who makes any statement regading anything anti-Patriot related. It was all in jest.

At least Brandon Lloyd waited until he caught a pass to take a dive:

Pittsburgh Steelers Sanders Phantom Injury Flop - YouTube

 

[supafly]

At least Brandon Lloyd waited until he caught a pass to take a dive:

Pittsburgh Steelers Sanders Phantom Injury Flop - YouTube

Yeah I live in Pittsburgh so it was a big deal at the time, even if they attempted to sweep it under the rug to the best of their ability.

I've got mixed feeling on the potential Sanders acquisition, but I do think that he could have a better career here then the one he's having for the Steelers.

Either way, I'm sure our WR depth will be improved upon, and that we'll be taking at least one higher round draft choice in a month from now.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

You must be a "closet Ravens fan...or a Jets fan posing as a troll."

Just found this...had to post it...too funny!

 

[mgteich]

This is a very low bar indeed.

Either way, I'm sure our WR depth will be improved upon.

 

[supafly]

This is a very low bar indeed.

A low bar compared to last year? It really isn't if you accept the fact that one of the greatest coaches of all-time saw fit to swap out Amendola for Welker. That is why I personally leave the "loss of Welker" out of the equation. There's nothing we can do about it, as the decision has already been made, and there is actually a reasonable argument that it had been made awhile ago. I think we simply have to trust in Belichick's plan, but it is quite reasonable to see his point in wanting to pay the younger player with a higher upside for the future.

The leaves us needing to replace the following depth chart at WR from 2012:

--Llyod

--Edelman

--Branch


Considering the fact that Reche Caldwell caught 61 passes from Brady, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that someone else can replace Llyod's production, and it would appear that Belichick feels that way too, especially when you factor in the assumed health of the 2 TE's which would lead to less production from Llyod in 2013, had he stayed.

That leaves needing a replacement for Edelman and Branch...if we cannot make that happen then we don't belong in the discussion of upper tiered teams in the first place.

You've gone from worrying about the CB depth non-stop prior to the free agency period to now worrying about the WR depth. Unless you assume that Belichick has lost his mind, I would think that our WR depth will be improved upon from last season, which may also lead to seeing some youth, size, and all around better skillsets added.

 

[mgteich]

CORNERS
Yes, I did indeed worry about cornerbacks and wanted us to re-sign last year's corners or upgrade them as our #1 priority (or perhaps #2 if Welker was #1). We re-signed Talib, Arrington and Cole. I still thin, as many do (including Reiss), that we still need another corner. But, I don't know the health of Dowling. In any case, we are at better than last year without the additional help that may or may not come. So, yes I moved on when Belichick signed four defensive backs, including an addition who can double as a coverage linebacker.

WIDE RECEIVERS
What I know is that Belichick and Welker couldn't strike a deal. I do NOT know that Belichick thought that Amendola would be as good fro the patriots this year as Welker was for it last year, or would be this year. I certainly don't consider Amendola a #1 receiver. I'm sure he can work out fine within the context of a wide receiver group.

Folks are simply assuming that Belichick has given up on getting the kind of production from the wide receiver position that we got last year, and that we will rely on out tight ends. Of course, we may be reduced to this if we have indeed significantly weakened our wode receivers from last year.

It isn't "out of the realm of possibility" that some JAG signing will have the production of Lloyd (over 900 yards as I recall).
=================
So, the PLAN is to hope Amendola produces as much as Welker and some unnamed player produces as much as Lloyd?

And finding a #3 receiver isn't even worth discussing. After all, the fact that we have failed at this task repeatedly in the past should be considered irrelevant.

In your scenario, if Amendola is injured for a game or two, we might as well line Hernandez a wide receiver.

CONCLUSION
We're not MINN! We need wide receivers. To expect Brady to win a Super Bowl with JAG's is what it is. I don't have that expectation. If we don't move before the draft, we will draft 2 WR's and they will likely have to play. We have been reduced to counting on Amendola and a couple of draftees. This is AS OF THIS DAY. Personally, I will feel very different if we re-sign Edelman (or less likely, Lloyd) and are able to secure Sanders. It is NOT that Lloyd is easily replaceable. However, I do understand that occasionally a team simply doesn't want a player around. And no, I am not sold on Sanders. He may simply be the best option available, if he is.

A low bar compared to last year? It really isn't if you accept the fact that one of the greatest coaches of all-time saw fit to swap out Amendola for Welker. That is why I personally leave the "loss of Welker" out of the equation. There's nothing we can do about it, as the decision has already been made, and there is actually a reasonable argument that it had been made awhile ago. I think we simply have to trust in Belichick's plan, but it is quite reasonable to see his point in wanting to pay the younger player with a higher upside for the future.

The leaves us needing to replace the following depth chart at WR from 2012:

--Llyod

--Edelman

--Branch


Considering the fact that Reche Caldwell caught 61 passes from Brady, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that someone else can replace Llyod's production, and it would appear that Belichick feels that way too, especially when you factor in the assumed health of the 2 TE's which would lead to less production from Llyod in 2013, had he stayed.

That leaves needing a replacement for Edelman and Branch...if we cannot make that happen then we don't belong in the discussion of upper tiered teams in the first place.

You've gone from worrying about the CB depth non-stop prior to the free agency period to now worrying about the WR depth. Unless you assume that Belichick has lost his mind, I would think that our WR depth will be improved upon from last season, which may also lead to seeing some youth, size, and all around better skillsets added.

 

[Ozymandias]

CONCLUSION
We're not MINN! We need wide receivers. To expect Brady to win a Super Bowl with JAG's is what it is. I don't have that expectation. If we don't move before the draft, we will draft 2 WR's and they will likely have to play. We have been reduced to counting on Amendola and a couple of draftees. This is AS OF THIS DAY. Personally, I will feel very different if we re-sign Edelman (or less likely, Lloyd) and are able to secure Sanders. It is NOT that Lloyd is easily replaceable. However, I do understand that occasionally a team simply doesn't want a player around. And no, I am not sold on Sanders. He may simply be the best option available, if he is.

We can all agree that the Patriots need to add more capable pass catchers to the roster, but for the potential newcomers or potential returnees in the case of Lloyd/Edelman/Stallworth it won't be to be #1-3 options in this offense but for depth on the lowered end of the spectrum. These depth players should not really be on field that often except in the case of injury emergency or special packages.

In the traditional sense of the word, Amendola is a #2 receiver as he's not a Z receiver or flanker. He's better suited for the Slot/Y receiver or split end/X receiver. So if the Patriots are looking for anything it should be to find a player to fit that mold who can win consistently on the outside as Z receiver who can also play in other 2 WR spots (its likely necessary to be proficient in the Patriots' offense).

Neither Lloyd/Edelman/Stallworth or JAGs like Branch/Jones/Jenkins or other camp fodder has shown this proficiency in manning that spot. So the only options left are via trading for one (highly unlikely) or drafting one (very likely) or lastly, signing Emmanuel Sanders who, I like you, don't believe he's what they're looking for in Z receiver; he's better suited as split end or slot guy. But as you've said he may just be the best option left. If the Patriots do sign him to an offer sheet before the draft that the Steelers don't match that likely means the Patriots don't view any WR worthy of a 3rd round selection at 91 and probably don't think much of WR class as a whole. If they don't sign Sanders then it's a clear sign that they do see someone worthy at 91 in all likelihood.

No matter who is brought in they will not be any higher than the #3 in the pecking order, fourth at best most likely. Right now its:

1. Gronkowski
2. Hernandez
3. Amendola (he could easily drop down to 4 if true traditional flanker is added)

This aligns perfectly with what their role will dictate within their offense in all likelihood. I believe that we can basically do away with this "#1 or 2 WR" concept that a lot of teams employ and just stick with prioritizing the offensive strength on who provides the most mismatches regardless of depth chart alignment.

/birdcents