My Blueprint For the Pats

[mayoclinic]

Barr is a 3-4 olb/de type. Same as Ansah. Duplicating that skill set. He couldn't run with Levonte David on his best day. CBS has him at 4.73. Not what we need.

Saying Barr and Ansah are the same kind of player is ridiculous.

Ansah is 6'6" 270# and many think he's playing upwards of 280#, and could play around 290#. He's fluid in space and plays standing up, but he's not going to be a coverage LB. He moves all around the front 7 including DT. He's JPP meets JJ Watt. There may be more space skills than either of those guys, but I doubt anyone will be drafting him to play OLB in the pros.

Barr is going to be a linebacker, whether in a 3-4 or a 4-3 scheme. Not a DE, except very situationally. He could bulk up and play 3-4 OLB, but he could very easily be a 4-3 WILL or SAM as well. He played safety in high school as well as RB, and he played a hybrid RB/FB/TE position at UCLA for 2 years. He's very fluid in space, and matches up very well with RBs and TEs, having played that position on offense (he could probably be used as a 2-way player in a limited role). He's a terrific speed rusher who has a great first step, but he's not a one trick pony by any means. In the Stanford game his role was mainly to shadow the TEs. I don't really care what his speed is listed as right now, it hasn't been timed, and he's shown in game situations that he can match up well with TEs like Zac Ertz - the kind of guys that give us fits. At 6'4" he has good length as well.

Personally, if I'm trying to take the Pats' defense to the next level, I'm looking to add some pieces that will give me optimum versatility. Adding Ansah and Barr in addition to what we already have does that. Ansah could move inside on NASCAR packages with Ninkovich or Hightower at LDE and Barr at OLB. Hightower could play SAM, move inside to MLB for Spikes in situations requiring more coverage, or move up to DE. Barr could play a hybrid LB/S role in some situations, and move up to DE in others. We could play 1-6 amoeboid formations with guys standing up and not knowing who is coming up and who is staying back, since all of Ansah, Barr, Hightower, Mayo, Spikes and Jones can drop into coverage or rush. And there's tremendous depth in case of injuries, which have tested us the past several years.

I think it's exactly what we need.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Saying Barr and Ansah are the same kind of player is ridiculous.

Ansah is 6'6" 270# and many think he's playing upwards of 280#, and could play around 290#. He's fluid in space and plays standing up, but he's not going to be a coverage LB. He moves all around the front 7 including DT. He's JPP meets JJ Watt. There may be more space skills than either of those guys, but I doubt anyone will be drafting him to play OLB in the pros.

Barr is going to be a linebacker, whether in a 3-4 or a 4-3 scheme. Not a DE, except very situationally. He could bulk up and play 3-4 OLB, but he could very easily be a 4-3 WILL or SAM as well. He played safety in high school as well as RB, and he played a hybrid RB/FB/TE position at UCLA for 2 years. He's very fluid in space, and matches up very well with RBs and TEs, having played that position on offense (he could probably be used as a 2-way player in a limited role). He's a terrific speed rusher who has a great first step, but he's not a one trick pony by any means. In the Stanford game his role was mainly to shadow the TEs. I don't really care what his speed is listed as right now, it hasn't been timed, and he's shown in game situations that he can match up well with TEs like Zac Ertz - the kind of guys that give us fits. At 6'4" he has good length as well.

Personally, if I'm trying to take the Pats' defense to the next level, I'm looking to add some pieces that will give me optimum versatility. Adding Ansah and Barr in addition to what we already have does that. Ansah could move inside on NASCAR packages with Ninkovich or Hightower at LDE and Barr at OLB. Hightower could play SAM, move inside to MLB for Spikes in situations requiring more coverage, or move up to DE. Barr could play a hybrid LB/S role in some situations, and move up to DE in others. We could play 1-6 amoeboid formations with guys standing up and not knowing who is coming up and who is staying back, since all of Ansah, Barr, Hightower, Mayo, Spikes and Jones can drop into coverage or rush. And there's tremendous depth in case of injuries, which have tested us the past several years.

I think it's exactly what we need.

I see a different player when I watch Barr. Anyone can "drop" into coverage. Does he have the hips to turn and run with a te or rb? I don't see it.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Personally, if I'm trying to take the Pats' defense to the next level, I'm looking to add some pieces that will give me optimum versatility. Adding Ansah and Barr in addition to what we already have does that. Ansah could move inside on NASCAR packages with Ninkovich or Hightower at LDE and Barr at OLB. Hightower could play SAM, move inside to MLB for Spikes in situations requiring more coverage, or move up to DE. Barr could play a hybrid LB/S role in some situations, and move up to DE in others. We could play 1-6 amoeboid formations with guys standing up and not knowing who is coming up and who is staying back, since all of Ansah, Barr, Hightower, Mayo, Spikes and Jones can drop into coverage or rush. And there's tremendous depth in case of injuries, which have tested us the past several years.

I think it's exactly what we need.

But Hightower, Barr, and Ninkovich are all similar players. That's why I don't think it's a need. I think it's a luxury we can afford. I'd still take him at 62. He's be two good to pass up. This is all hypothetical because he's a first rounder.

 

[mayoclinic]

But Hightower, Barr, and Ninkovich are all similar players. That's why I don't think it's a need. I think it's a luxury we can afford. I'd still take him at 62. He's be two good to pass up. This is all hypothetical because he's a first rounder.

?

I don't see Hightower and Barr as similar at all.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

?

I don't see Hightower and Barr as similar at all.

They don't look similar, but are they not both versatile OLBs that can rush the edge/blitz? I don't think he's much like David. That might be why we feel differently. He's the PAC-12's Jarvis Jones IMO.

I'm having trouble seeing them all take the field regularly. Maybe if I thought Chandler was better suited to move inside in the Nascar. Then you could go Nink-Ansah-Jones-Hightower with Mayo and Barr out back, but that's crazy.

 

[manxman2601]

They don't look similar, but are they not both versatile OLBs that can rush the edge/blitz? I don't think he's much like David. That might be why we feel differently. He's the PAC-12's Jarvis Jones IMO.

I'm having trouble seeing them all take the field regularly. Maybe if I thought Chandler was better suited to move inside in the Nascar. Then you could go Nink-Ansah-Jones-Hightower with Mayo and Barr out back, but that's crazy.

This I agree with.

 

[mayoclinic]

They don't look similar, but are they not both versatile OLBs that can rush the edge/blitz? I don't think he's much like David. That might be why we feel differently. He's the PAC-12's Jarvis Jones IMO.

I'm having trouble seeing them all take the field regularly. Maybe if I thought Chandler was better suited to move inside in the Nascar. Then you could go Nink-Ansah-Jones-Hightower with Mayo and Barr out back, but that's crazy.

Again, I don't think he's like Jarvis Jones at all. I think that UCLA uses him a lot to pass rush, but he has much more coverage ability than Jones. Against Stanford UCLA used him almost exclusively to shadow the TEs. He also has good physicality for his frame - UCLA averaged something like 227 YPG rushing when he played blocking FB last year, which was cut almost in half when he missed some time with an ankle injury.

I think you could do a lot of stuff with Barr because of his combined ability to come on the blitz as a pass rusher or drop into coverage effectively. Personally, at this point I don't think you need them all to take the field regularly to get value from them. The 49ers may have 10 guys play 90% of the defensive snaps, but we haven't had that kind of history. I'd rather have guys rotate in and out to stay fresh and have multiple starting caliber guys in case of injury. So far this season Ninkovich has played around 84% of the defensive snaps, Spikes around 75%, Jones around 68% and Hightower around 46%. Some of that's been due to injuries. But I think there's room to rotate guys in and get value from them, without playing 90%+ of the snaps like Mayo or McCourty. JMHO.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Again, I don't think he's like Jarvis Jones at all. I think that UCLA uses him a lot to pass rush, but he has much more coverage ability than Jones. Against Stanford UCLA used him almost exclusively to shadow the TEs. He also has good physicality for his frame - UCLA averaged something like 227 YPG rushing when he played blocking FB last year, which was cut almost in half when he missed some time with an ankle injury.

I think you could do a lot of stuff with Barr because of his combined ability to come on the blitz as a pass rusher or drop into coverage effectively. Personally, at this point I don't think you need them all to take the field regularly to get value from them. The 49ers may have 10 guys play 90% of the defensive snaps, but we haven't had that kind of history. I'd rather have guys rotate in and out to stay fresh and have multiple starting caliber guys in case of injury. So far this season Ninkovich has played around 84% of the defensive snaps, Spikes around 75%, Jones around 68% and Hightower around 46%. Some of that's been due to injuries. But I think there's room to rotate guys in and get value from them, without playing 90%+ of the snaps like Mayo or McCourty. JMHO.

I don't think you can spend first rounders on rotational players. It's a poor allocation of resources.

In your fantasy draft when you get him a 62, that's fine. I already said I'd do that, but it's fantasy.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't think you can spend first rounders on rotational players. It's a poor allocation of resources.

In your fantasy draft when you get him a 62, that's fine. I already said I'd do that, but it's fantasy.

If I spent I 1st on Barr, it would be with the plan of moving Hightower to LDE. In this scenario I would have Ansah at LDE. Using a late 2nd on Barr as a rotational guy with the versatility to play different roles is another matter. BB's shown that he values that kind of versatility to the value of a mid/late 2nd round pick (see: Shane Vereen; Tavon Wilson).

 

[Snake Eyes]

3. Pats trade Ryan Mallett to Minnesota for 2013 4th and 5th round picks and a 2014 conditional pick (3rd round, upgradeable depending on performance). Christan Ponder has regressed, and Minny is desperate. Pats re-sign Matt Cassel, who is cut by the Chiefs in the off-season, then use the extra ammo to draft AJ McCarron in 2014.

The Bills have mentioned that they are looking for a QB and wont be afraid to trade up for him. Also, I think the Raiders might be interested, Palmer is pretty washed up, and Mallet would be a great fit with his cannon arm to get the ball downfield to their speed receivers.

 

[manxman2601]

If I spent I 1st on Barr, it would be with the plan of moving Hightower to LDE. In this scenario I would have Ansah at LDE. Using a late 2nd on Barr as a rotational guy with the versatility to play different roles is another matter. BB's shown that he values that kind of versatility to the value of a mid/late 2nd round pick (see: Shane Vereen; Tavon Wilson).

Were Vereen and Wilson picked as rotational guys or eventual starters though. Not taking issue with your Barr as rotational player idea (I'd do the same with Ogletree), just with that particular assertion.

As for Barr, I'm not doing a "my pick is better than yours" thing but I think Van Noy is the better Patriots fit personally. I do think Barr has the greater pass rushing upside, but that Van Noy is the more disciplined better all round player. Having said that, I'm not sure either will be Patriots picks because I question whether they have the size and ability to set the edge and I think that's the ultimate requirement for BB.

Just on that "setting the edge" point and Hightower and a potential switch to a 4-3. I'm reminded of Hightower in the NCG last year. One thing that really stood out was that Hightower really prevented LSU from getting around the end. In that regard, I still think he should have been the MVP - he shut down LSU. I wonder whether it was that that convinced BB to draft him and that he's happy keeping him at SLB for that reason. Teams will struggle to get around the outside of a Hightower/Ninkovich combination.

Check out this Van Noy play. This is what I really like about him:

Kyle Van Noy vs Utah (2012) - YouTube


And for those who like a daily dose of "Ziggy porn", watch him lay out the QB below.

Kyle Van Noy vs Utah (2012) - YouTube

 

[mayoclinic]

Were Vereen and Wilson picked as rotational guys or eventual starters though. Not taking issue with your Barr as rotational player idea (I'd do the same with Ogletree), just with that particular assertion.

As for Barr, I'm not doing a "my pick is better than yours" thing but I think Van Noy is the better Patriots fit personally. I do think Barr has the greater pass rushing upside, but that Van Noy is the more disciplined better all round player. Having said that, I'm not sure either will be Patriots picks because I question whether they have the size and ability to set the edge and I think that's the ultimate requirement for BB.

Just on that "setting the edge" point and Hightower and a potential switch to a 4-3. I'm reminded of Hightower in the NCG last year. One thing that really stood out was that Hightower really prevented LSU from getting around the end. In that regard, I still think he should have been the MVP - he shut down LSU. I wonder whether it was that that convinced BB to draft him and that he's happy keeping him at SLB for that reason. Teams will struggle to get around the outside of a Hightower/Ninkovich combination.

Check out this Van Noy play. This is what I really like about him:

Kyle Van Noy vs Utah (2012) - YouTube

And for those who like a daily dose of "Ziggy porn", watch him lay out the QB below.

Kyle Van Noy vs Utah (2012) - YouTube

All very good points. Manx, your eye for talent has been superb, and I've said several times that I'm quite high on Van Noy. I think I prefer Barr because of his background and potential versatility. I do wonder whether his experience as a blocking fullback may make him a better edge setter than people give him credit for. But any LB like Ogletree, Barr, Van Noy is not going to be the edge setter that Hightower is, and would be a tradeoff of edge setting in favor of other aspects.

And thanks for the "Ziggy porn".

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

If I spent I 1st on Barr, it would be with the plan of moving Hightower to LDE. In this scenario I would have Ansah at LDE. Using a late 2nd on Barr as a rotational guy with the versatility to play different roles is another matter. BB's shown that he values that kind of versatility to the value of a mid/late 2nd round pick (see: Shane Vereen; Tavon Wilson).

I thought that's what I said.

 

[mayoclinic]

Based on the what I wrote a few days ago, here's my current "fantasy/dream draft" based on NFL DraftScout's 12/12 rankings, assuming that juniors declare. I know it's unrealistic (some of the juniors won't declare, and the DraftScout rankings won't hold), but it's useful as a tool for expressing certain ideas and directions.

Assumptions:

1. Pats pick 32 in each round.
2. Pats get 6th and 7th round comp picks.
3. Pats trade Ryan Mallett to Minnesota for 2013 4th and 5th round picks and a 2014 conditional pick (3rd round, upgradeable depending on performance). Christan Ponder has regressed, and Minny is desperate. Pats re-sign Matt Cassel, who is cut by the Chiefs in the off-season, then use the extra ammo to draft AJ McCarron in 2014.

That gives them 9 picks: 32, 62, 94, 4, 5, 6 (comp), 7a, 7b and 7 (comp). A bit optimistic, but not out of the question.

32. Ziggy Ansah, DE, BYU. 6'6" 270#. NFL DraftScout #37.



Super Beast! Ansah would excel at LDE opposite Chandler Jones. He could also stand up at times, and move inside at times. He has the length, strength and speed to be a fusion of JPP and JJ Watt.

62. Anthony Barr*, OLB, UCLA. 6'4" 238#. NFL DraftScout #66.



Super Beast! Barr is a fusion of Aldon Smith, Von Miller and Lavonte David. He probably won't come out, and wouldn't last this long if he did. But it's a fantasy dream draft. He would meet 2 huge needs: a coverage LB who could handle TEs and RBs, and an impact pass rusher who could blitz. He could probably play safety some (he played it a bit in high school), and could also probably be used on offense.

Dion Jordan at #31 is tempting. But Ansah and Barr would give the Pats the best of both worlds.

94. Brian Winters, OL, Kent St. 6'4" 310#. Currently NFL DraftScout #101.



Stud Horse! Winters is a blue collar lineman in the Matt Light/Logan Mankins mold. He's tough, physical, durable, and manhandles defensive linemen. Plays with a mean streak. He'll take over for Logan Mankins as starting LG around 2015 and be a 5-10 year starter under Scar.

4 (from Minn). Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon St. 6'1" 182#. Currently NFL DraftScout #131.



Greyhound! Wheaton is a Greg Jennings clone who can both stretch the field and go over the middle. He can run the entire route tree, runs disciplined routes, and has good hands.

5 (from Minn). Brandon Williams, DT, Missouri Southern. 6'2" 328#. NFL DraftScout #139.



Sleeper Stud Horse! Brandon Williams is a small school Vince Wilfork. He has near Dontari Poe kind of athleticism, but much more productivity, albeit against poor competition. He has a great motor and work ethic. He'll be a great rotational DT.

6 (comp). Reid Fragel, OT, Ohio St. 6'8" 310#. Currently NFL DraftScout #395.



Sleeper! A former TE with great athleticism, Fragel will develop into a nice swing tackle behind Solder and Vollmer, allowing Marcus Cannon to move inside.

7a. Dexter McCoil, FS, Tulsa. 6'3" 222#. Currently NFL DraftScout #320.



Sleeper! A big DB who moves well in space and has fluid movement skills, McCoil has nice developmental potential.

7b. Nick Kasa, TE, Colorada. 6'6" 260#. Currently NFLDraftScout # 261.



Sleeper! A former highly recruited DE, Kasa has switched to TE and taken off. He reportedly has 4.55 speed, and has thrived as an offensive weapon. He has "mini-Gronk" potential.

7 (comp). Colin Klein, QB/H-back, Kansas St. Currently NFL DraftScout # 291.



Sleeper! Klein is part Tim Tebow, part Colin Kaepernick, part Matt Jones. He may never be an NFL QB, but he could be an outstanding H-back/TE kind of hybrid weapon. Unlike Jones, he has the leadership and work ethic to succeed at the next level.

James Christenson of NE Patriots' Draft jumps on the "Pats' need another edge rusher and depth inside at DT" bandwagon, mocking Ziggy Ansah to the Pats at 28 and Kawann Short at 58:

2013 NFL Mock Draft: James Christensen (12/18) | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2013 NFL Draft

I think that the Pats might need to consider trading up for a guy like Ansah if they believe he's the real deal. Consider this iteration of the above (including the Mallett trade; Anthony Barr is pretty much assumed to be a lock to go back to UCLA at this point):

*** Trade: Pats trade 1a and 1b for a higher 1st round pick and a 2013 3rd round pick.

1. Ziggy Ansah, DE, BYU.

3a. Brian Winters, OL, Kent St.

3b. Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon St.

4. Brandon Williams, DT, Missouri Southern.

5. Alonzo Highsmith, LB, Arkansas.

6 (comp). Reid Fragel, OT, Ohio St.

7a. Dexter McCoil, FS, Tulsa.

7b. Nick Kasa, TE, Colorado.

7c. Colin Klein, QB/H-back/WR, Kansas St.

FA. Manx's kid from Chadron St., whose name I can't remember.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

FA. Manx's kid from Chadron St., whose name I can't remember.

Garrett Gilkey.

 

[captain stone]

If so, and IF we had taken Cunningham at 90 instead of Price, there are a ton of players I would have taken at 53 over Tate, both at the time of the draft and in retrospect:

- Carlos Dunlap (54). One of my favorites. Imagine if we had him at LDE opposite Chandler Jones. BB reportedly took Cunningham over Dunlap in part because he felt Dunlap was more of a pure DE - but given what we are playing now, Dunlap is a better schematic fit.
- Sean Lee (55). Incredibly instinctive LB with amazing coverage skills.
- Jared Veldheer (69). I wanted to get Veldheer and pair him with Vollmer. As good as Nate Solder will be, if we had Veldheer and Vollmer we might have been able to package 17+33 and trade up for JJ Watt.

I was never a fan of Golden Tate in 2010. I was praying the Pats wouldn't take him. JMHO.

A couple of quick counter-counter-points:

Dunlap wasn't a schematic fit at the time; he had off-field & on-field issues also. I had no problem
bypassing him then. Besides, Cliff Avril in '08 & Connor Barwin in '09 would've mitigated the need
to take a 2nd-round risk on Dunlap.

Not much argument re Lee, though I didn't forsee the immediate impact he would make in Dallas.

I felt at the time that Veldheer's value lay closer to the end of the 3rd round, due mostly to his lack
of Division 1 experience.

He and/or Lee would've been welcome additions, though perhaps slight luxuries, given our need,
then & now, for a young WR (who BTW was coached by the architect of this obviously hard-to-learn
offense). This would've been an extremely rare opportunity to match value & need & experience,
and Bill failed to take advantage of it.

 

[mayoclinic]

Pats trade Ryan Mallett to Minnesota for 2013 4th and 5th round picks and a 2014 conditional pick (3rd round, upgradeable depending on performance). Christan Ponder has regressed, and Minny is desperate. Pats re-sign Matt Cassel, who is cut by the Chiefs in the off-season, then use the extra ammo to draft AJ McCarron in 2014.

Recent reports suggest that Percy Harvin may be on the outs in Minnesota:

Percy Harvin and Leslie Frazier reportedly clashed - NFL.com

Harvin will be in a contract year in 2013, and Minny may try to move him while they can still get something for him.

If Matt Cassel is available as a FA option to back up Brady, would a Mallett for Harvin deal be out of the question? Cassel would make Mallett expendable, and the Pats would get a potential impact player in Harvin. Minny would trade a player they are probably going to lose after 2013 and who has had clashes with the coaching staff, and gets a possible starting QB. It would be poetic irony, since Mallett was drafted with the #74 pick acquired from the Randy Moss trade, so it would end up being a Moss-for-Harvin deal in the long run.

Probably a pipe dream. But tantalizing. I don't know if the Pats could keep Welker as well, at least for one more year. Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Harvin, Ridley, plus Lloyd, Vereen and Edelman ... lots of options.

 

[Sciz]

Recent reports suggest that Percy Harvin may be on the outs in Minnesota:

Percy Harvin and Leslie Frazier reportedly clashed - NFL.com

Harvin will be in a contract year in 2013, and Minny may try to move him while they can still get something for him.

If Matt Cassel is available as a FA option to back up Brady, would a Mallett for Harvin deal be out of the question? Cassel would make Mallett expendable, and the Pats would get a potential impact player in Harvin. Minny would trade a player they are probably going to lose after 2013 and who has had clashes with the coaching staff, and gets a possible starting QB. It would be poetic irony, since Mallett was drafted with the #74 pick acquired from the Randy Moss trade, so it would end up being a Moss-for-Harvin deal in the long run.

Probably a pipe dream. But tantalizing. I don't know if the Pats could keep Welker as well, at least for one more year. Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Harvin, Ridley, plus Lloyd, Vereen and Edelman ... lots of options.

Harvin has made it well known that he expects to get paid this offseason, whether it's by the Vikings or someone else. So I think that any Pats move for Harvin would require that Welker moves on. The issue isn't so much in 2013 (Gronk is still cheap), bit in 2014 when Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd, Harvin, and Welker would all have cap hits of at least $4.2M, and quite a bit more for Welker and Harvin, most likely.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Harvin has made it well known that he expects to get paid this offseason, whether it's by the Vikings or someone else. So I think that any Pats move for Harvin would require that Welker moves on. The issue isn't so much in 2013 (Gronk is still cheap), bit in 2014 when Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd, Harvin, and Welker would all have cap hits of at least $4.2M, and quite a bit more for Welker and Harvin, most likely.

This isn't a direct response to you, Sciz, but I'll take the Welkah I know over the quasi-Welkah I don't.

 

[Tasco]

Recent reports suggest that Percy Harvin may be on the outs in Minnesota:

Percy Harvin and Leslie Frazier reportedly clashed - NFL.com

Harvin will be in a contract year in 2013, and Minny may try to move him while they can still get something for him.

If Matt Cassel is available as a FA option to back up Brady, would a Mallett for Harvin deal be out of the question? Cassel would make Mallett expendable, and the Pats would get a potential impact player in Harvin. Minny would trade a player they are probably going to lose after 2013 and who has had clashes with the coaching staff, and gets a possible starting QB. It would be poetic irony, since Mallett was drafted with the #74 pick acquired from the Randy Moss trade, so it would end up being a Moss-for-Harvin deal in the long run.

Probably a pipe dream. But tantalizing. I don't know if the Pats could keep Welker as well, at least for one more year. Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Harvin, Ridley, plus Lloyd, Vereen and Edelman ... lots of options.

Harvin imo could really be great in this offense, but I'm scared: haven't read much about his migraines recently, but I remember he was severely impacted by them last year. Is the matter cleared up? Plus, how much money does he want? And he doesn't look like a real team player to me.