Julian Edelman

[patfanken]

I'm not sure why you find disagreement exhausting.

Because saying the same thing over and over again IS tiresome, especially when you get the SAME responses over and over again. Clearly with over 15,000 post you don't mind repeating yourself, but I don't.

I mean did you really think I was going to change my criteria for evaluating a player because you put on a positive spin?

No, that would require having an open mind and respect for some else's opinion. So of course I didn't think you'd change your mind.

But sure, dropping the conversation is fine. The only thing you said that I dispute is that you are continuing to act as if the fact that the coaching staff has determined they don't want him on the field has nothing to do with assessing his ablity.

Why try and make is sound like a capitulation. That's childish. Weeks ago I make this same point. You feel that all the WR position require the same skill set. You believe if you are good in the slot, your should be good outside the numbers. I, on the other hand believe that the slot receiver requires a different skill set. Just because a guy plays G very well, doesn't mean he will be a great tackle. They are two DIFFERENT positions. I believe the same hold true for slot receivers.

But it you want you can continue to say (as you have for the last few months) that the fact Edelman can't beat out outside WR's last season, he can't possibly be a good slot receiver, feel free.

Playing time is earned, and I find it very frustrating when people try to argue the guy on the bench is 50% likely to be better than the guy the coach puts on the field ahead of him, because he was not afforded a chance, when the fact is he didn't earn it.
That is probably the piece of your argument that I find the most inexplicably obstinate.

This argument would have merit ONLY if I had opined that Edelman was better than Welker or that I wanted Edelman to start over him. Which just hasn't been the case. I am comfortable that if Edelman had to play the slot WR position, the offense wouldn't be impared. You clearly are not.

Like I said earlier, UNTIL he has that opportunity, by injury or Welker moving on, NEITHER of us knows for sure who is right. But since in your mind, you think you are ALWAYS right, this last sentence won't mean anything to you.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Your point has validity and I see the obvious humor, but I think that some here are taking the whole Demps thing a bit too far.

In one thread he is replacing Danny Woodhead, in the other--Julian Edelman.

Let's remember that Demps was likely a 5th/6th/7th rd prospect who has been out of football for quite awhile, not to mention that he's a very small scat back with no knowledge of...anything here.

I agree with bringing him in this year and giving him a shot, and I certainly hope that he ends up being a diamond in the rough.

I think all of the speculation is premised upon Demps as the KR, which means they have to get rid of someone, and since he plays similar roles and they have to get rid of someone good as a result. Is it possible he gets cut and the others stick, sure, but given their recruitment of him against the competition it' seems unlikely.

 

[Huckleberry1]

This argument would have merit ONLY if I had opined that Edelman was better than Welker or that I wanted Edelman to start over him. Which just hasn't been the case. I am comfortable that if Edelman had to play the slot WR position, the offense wouldn't be impared. You clearly are not.

.

Ken, it's these kinds of comments that make no sense. Saying the Patriots offense wouldn't be impaired if they lost the best slot WR in history and the most productive WR in football the past 5 seasons is ridiculous.

 

[supafly]

lmao-I didn't even know Gallery had retired let alone have any sort of "inside" knowledge. My views on Edelman are based upon his roster spot in relation to all of the depth they have added at his various roles. To me they have 5 CB's, so no spot there, 5 WR's, so no spot there. A KR specialist, so no spot there. I think Slater wins a ST spot over him.

I like Edelman I just think they are getting too deep across the board and running out of room for him, same goes for Woodhead who i am a big fan of.

I certainly think that is a good point. Increased roster competition and depth will likely push someone who we are surprised at out of the roster.

If your opinion is that it's Julian Edelman, then I certainly appreciate and respect that.

I would agree with you that the addition of Demps certainly hasn't helped his cause. I just personally feel that he's good to make it regardless of the fact.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I certainly think that is a good point. Increased roster competition and depth will likely push someone who we are surprised at out of the roster.

If your opinion is that it's Julian Edelman, then I certainly appreciate and respect that.

I would agree with you that the addition of Demps certainly hasn't helped his cause. I just personally feel that he's good to make it regardless of the fact.

And I am fine with that if that happens, it's a testament to how good their offseason was that Edelman is even in the discussion for guys who might no make it. If I were betting on it I would say it is far more likely that they take a chance on getting Dennard through to the PS, as no team is going to hand him a spot and they know they have a big leg up on the competition in signing him to their PS.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

We know he's track-fast (Demps.) Let's get a better idea of how football-fast he is, at the NFL level. See if passes go from point a to him at point b, and let's see him run the ball from point a to point b out of the backfield... and of course, let's see his kick returning at the nfl level. A lot of guys can run fast straight ahead and can't do bupkiss in football.

If Edelman's out, and Welker's gone next year, then the underneath stuff shifts toward a tight-ends only affair. Sure you can send any receiver over the middle but it's the shifty little guys that are a threat from a short gainer... the Welker/Edelman guys. Well, them and the TEs.

Seems you want a shifty guy. Seems we're losing the really good shifty guy next year. Granted specifying that Demps' purpose is special teams is a threat to Edelman, but I wouldn't call it an open/shut case.

I'd say it's likely that the Demps/Edelman/[your fave here] competition is going to be a matter of weighing the full effect of each player. Demps might have promise out of the backfield and as an outside threat. Edelman has promise as a slot guy. Both can play special teams. A Stallworth gives you what he's always demonstrated on the outside (mainly for other teams.) Is that enough to keep him? Deion? What about the wear on the tread?

I'm more a fan of just watching the circus come through than a real "picker" of these roster moves... but I guess that's everyone

 

[AQPE]

Interesting debate, the vehemance is surprising to me considering what I think of JE's role being on this team, i.e., the Swiss Army Knife. I guess that's what gives him the "duende" he has with his "Edelbackers" (I tip my cap to the poster that came up with that one!).

I suspect even those who are pretty down on Edelman would admit that with Welker's future in doubt, this is going to be one interesting player to follow this year. He's had a few years now to develop, so if its going to happen at all for him you'd have to think that his great leap forward as a receiver will be this year.

I myself will be surprised to see his production increase much beyond what we saw from him the past couple of years, but just as surprised if he doesn't make the team at all. To me he is is a good cog in the machine, he can give you a play here or there, but nothing more than that. I think the Pats need more than what he can give you at wide receiver. Sorry Edelbackers ...

 

[RobertWeathers]

We know he's track-fast (Demps.) Let's get a better idea of how football-fast he is, at the NFL level. See if passes go from point a to him at point b, and let's see him run the ball from point a to point b out of the backfield... and of course, let's see his kick returning at the nfl level. A lot of guys can run fast straight ahead and can't do bupkiss in football.

If Edelman's out, and Welker's gone next year, then the underneath stuff shifts toward a tight-ends only affair. Sure you can send any receiver over the middle but it's the shifty little guys that are a threat from a short gainer... the Welker/Edelman guys. Well, them and the TEs.

Seems you want a shifty guy. Seems we're losing the really good shifty guy next year. Granted specifying that Demps' purpose is special teams is a threat to Edelman, but I wouldn't call it an open/shut case.

I'd say it's likely that the Demps/Edelman/[your fave here] competition is going to be a matter of weighing the full effect of each player. Demps might have promise out of the backfield and as an outside threat. Edelman has promise as a slot guy. Both can play special teams. A Stallworth gives you what he's always demonstrated on the outside (mainly for other teams.) Is that enough to keep him? Deion? What about the wear on the tread?

I'm more a fan of just watching the circus come through than a real "picker" of these roster moves... but I guess that's everyone

Jeff Demps is plenty football fast. That is not a concern. If he can get to the same level of understanding of the offense as Woodhead, he is gone.

Same goes for Edelman. If he can show that he can do the job at KR and maybe be the PR guy, hes gone too.

Demps can POTENTIALLY put two guys out of a job.

For those who say that its critical to have a backup to WW, no- it is not. The offense will be just fine if WW goes down.

 

[DocHoliday]

Some people here really underrate Woodhead. He wasn't great last season due to injury but if we get the 2010 Woodhead back he's going nowhere.

 

[everlong]

Ken, it's these kinds of comments that make no sense. Saying the Patriots offense wouldn't be impaired if they lost the best slot WR in history and the most productive WR in football the past 5 seasons is ridiculous.

By impaired I believe he meant crippled. Going from Welker to Edelman would be a downgrade but at least he's capable. It wouldn't be going from Brady to Sanchez.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

The offense will be just fine if WW goes down.

I keep hearing this and keep shaking my head every single time, wondering how anyone can think this way.

WW is to the average slot receiver what Usain Bolt is to the average track sprinter. We can debate all we want about whether Edelman would be at least average as a starting NFL slot receiver (I think he would be), but the drop-off would be absolutely gigantic, even if you elevate the role of Aaron Hernandez to take over many of the types of plays we run for Wes, along with JE.

I just don't get the easy dismissal of WW.

 

[The Scrizz]

Interesting debate, the vehemance is surprising to me considering what I think of JE's role being on this team, i.e., the Swiss Army Knife. I guess that's what gives him the "duende" he has with his "Edelbackers" (I tip my cap to the poster that came up with that one!).

I suspect even those who are pretty down on Edelman would admit that with Welker's future in doubt, this is going to be one interesting player to follow this year. He's had a few years now to develop, so if its going to happen at all for him you'd have to think that his great leap forward as a receiver will be this year.

I myself will be surprised to see his production increase much beyond what we saw from him the past couple of years, but just as surprised if he doesn't make the team at all. To me he is is a good cog in the machine, he can give you a play here or there, but nothing more than that. I think the Pats need more than what he can give you at wide receiver. Sorry Edelbackers ...

If WW does what he does every year, how are you going to even know if Edelman has taken a great leap forward? The only way you are going to see his production rise is if he is playing instead of Welker.

And the 'we have 5 cornerbacks so he isn't needed there' argument is moronic. (Not referencing this post, but one upstream). We had corners last year too until we didn't.

You need good 'cogs in the machine' or you end up with crap when you get injuries. He does his job and he does other people's too if they ask him to.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Edelman came very close to muffing a punt on his own 7 yard line last night, and was lucky enough to regain control of it and gain 3 or 4 yards before going down. It's one play, but I think it bears mention right along with his good plays.

Edelman is very quick and elusive, but his hands appear average, maybe a bit less. On this play he took a risk (being that close to the end zone) that I hope he wouldn't take in the regular season.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Yup, Edes can work himself off the 53 with a lost punt in pre-season. That assumes BB has someone besides Welker who can catch punts.

 

[patfanken]

Edelman came very close to muffing a punt on his own 7 yard line last night, and was lucky enough to regain control of it and gain 3 or 4 yards before going down. It's one play, but I think it bears mention right along with his good plays.
.

You guys are getting so desperate in your attempt to defend your collapsing point of view you are grasping at anything that even seems negative to say about Edelman.

If Welker had been the recipient of that successful hitch pass, Red, you'd have been the first one to write "see, Edelman could never have done that".

BTW- FYI in his career (per NFL.com) Edelman averages 14.5 punts per fumble. I'm sure after reading this you guys will be calling for BB to put Welker back there. You know, Wes Welker who averages a fumble every 14.4 punts Or maybe you would want to trade for one of the premium punt returners like DeSean Jackson who happens to average 14.5 punts per fumble.

Don't you understand that it is very likely that Wes Welker is going to see a significant drop off in his production this year....and it won't have anything to do with is play. There is only one ball and more options simply mean fewer targets, and fewer targets means lower production. Plus its likely we will run the ball a bit more, creating even fewer opportunities for receiving production.

 

[Jackson 2]

Edelman came very close to muffing a punt on his own 7 yard line last night, and was lucky enough to regain control of it and gain 3 or 4 yards before going down. It's one play, but I think it bears mention right along with his good plays.

Edelman is very quick and elusive, but his hands appear average, maybe a bit less. On this play he took a risk (being that close to the end zone) that I hope he wouldn't take in the regular season.

And I came very close to hitting Powerball last week. But I didn't. And I don't mean to single your post out, either. But, GD can we conclude that Edelman is a very good, valuable player who is not a replacement for Welker but a complementary piece in what we all hope and probably believe will be a great offense and over-all team this year? I'm a huge Edelman fan. I also don't believe he'll ever be as good in the slot as Welker. Hell, who the eff will be, ever? But, that doesn't mean he's not a very good football player. He is and I believe he's a lock to make this team. And should be.

 

[Reckedtrek]

You guys are getting so desperate in your attempt to defend your collapsing point of view you are grasping at anything that even seems negative to say about Edelman.

If Welker had been the recipient of that successful hitch pass, Red, you'd have been the first one to write "see, Edelman could never have done that".

BTW- FYI in his career (per NFL.com) Edelman averages 14.5 punts per fumble. I'm sure after reading this you guys will be calling for BB to put Welker back there. You know, Wes Welker who averages a fumble every 14.4 punts Or maybe you would want to trade for one of the premium punt returners like DeSean Jackson who happens to average 14.5 punts per fumble.

Don't you understand that it is very likely that Wes Welker is going to see a significant drop off in his production this year....and it won't have anything to do with is play. There is only one ball and more options simply mean fewer targets, and fewer targets means lower production. Plus its likely we will run the ball a bit more, creating even fewer opportunities for receiving production.

Hey Drama Queen, I'm not going to lose sleep whether he makes the team or not. Nor am I "clinging" or "desperate". Really! I pointed out that your sweetheart made what could have been a costly mistake in a real game, and that *I THINK* his hands are about average, maybe a little less. I am still allowed to have an opinion, right K-K-Ken?

I also said

It's one play, but I think it bears mention right along with his good plays. -Reckedtrek

Clearly pointing that that he had good plays, but this wasn't one of them. Good with the bad. Bad with the good. Now go pop a nitroglycerine, and have a coke and a G-D smile.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Don't you understand that it is very likely that Wes Welker is going to see a significant drop off in his production this year....and it won't have anything to do with is play. There is only one ball and more options simply mean fewer targets, and fewer targets means lower production. Plus its likely we will run the ball a bit more, creating even fewer opportunities for receiving production.

So your "solution" to this "problem" is to get rid of the #1 or #2 target?

 

[Reckedtrek]

And I came very close to hitting Powerball last week. But I didn't. And I don't mean to single your post out, either. But, GD can we conclude that Edelman is a very good, valuable player who is not a replacement for Welker but a complementary piece in what we all hope and probably believe will be a great offense and over-all team this year? I'm a huge Edelman fan. I also don't believe he'll ever be as good in the slot as Welker. Hell, who the eff will be, ever? But, that doesn't mean he's not a very good football player. He is and I believe he's a lock to make this team. And should be.

I don't agree with you - entirely. I agree that he will likely make the 53 and that has to either imply that you are pretty good- or that you have skills that no one else can duplicate out of the other 52 players.

JE (to me) is a jack of all trades, master of none. He is serviceable but diverse. He is also very good at returning punts due to his agility and quickness.
IF he wasn't a good PR, he'd be gone (IMO) - due to the amount of other quality players on the team. BUT he DOES well at PR, and no one else really does, at least that the Pats are willing to risk losing (such as WW).

In my opinion he is overrated by many on this board. But as I said in my last post, it doesn't affect my life one way or the other whether he makes it or not. Good luck to him- wish I could.

 

[supafly]

So your "solution" to this "problem" is to get rid of the #1 or #2 target?

I don't think that's his or anyone's solution, PBPF. I think many of us are assuming that the decision has already been made though, and are preparing ourselves for next yr without WWW.