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Judge Nelson rules in favor of the players

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It's not posturing. It's reality. But, continue to suck on the jocks of the players as you have since the issue came up. You've been beating that drum since day one. So I am not surprised, in the least, that you posted your garbage.

Unfortunately for you, Deus, you will not be able to find a single legal document that says that the PLAYERS have a RIGHT to play in the NFL. Not one.

There is not a single document that says that a player drafted by the NFL HAS to play in the NFL. That player can go to either of the 3 football leagues I mentioned or do something else.

Is the NFL a monopoly? Yes. However, it is not the only avenue for players. And with things made easier by the globalization of economies and such and the various agreements between Canada and the US, it's much easier to go and work for the CFL now.

What "RIGHT" don't the owners have? To lock out the players? Sorry, but the previous CBA said they could. And it was a document agree to by the players. Guess you need to brush up on it.

1.) Under current law, in the absence of a union, there can be no league/business-wide lockout, because it's a clear cut case of collusion. Pretty basic. It's why the "single entity" issue was so important to the NFL in the American Needle case.

2.) You continue to confuse the "RIGHT" involved here. In the case at bar, the question was the "RIGHT" of the owners, in concert (a/k/a the league), to keep the players locked out in the absence of a union, not the "RIGHT" of the players to work. Again, pretty basic.

3.) Once you conceded that the NFL was a monopoly, you lost the ability to equate the NFL with any other football league in the United States, since they are clearly not U.S. monopolies. Monopolies have different rules from other companies. In this case, I didn't even bring up the idea of the monopoly, you did, and you hurt your own argument in the process.

And leave the personal shots out of this. You're not getting anything right, so it's just making you look more foolish.
 
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1.) Monopolies do not require a business/company to be the only one in existence.

2.) Your are posting about a "RIGHT" that you claim the players don't have when, in fact, the issue is a "RIGHT" that the owners don't have.

Good points.

Whoa, what a heated thread. I didn't realize we had so many constitutional lawyers and legal scholars on this board.

I honestly don't know who is right and who is wrong, but I do find it interesting that one side has now had to discount and disparage two successive judges, the one appointed by Ronald Reagan and the other by Barack Obama. Nelson also served 10 years as Magistrate Judge in Minnesota before her recent appointment, so I doubt she's the "idiot" that our learned colleagues are painting her to be. That same side is now gearing up to dismiss an entire Appellate Court as well! Hint: ripping your opponent is not the way to convince observers that you have the stronger argument.

I admit I'm neither a Lawyer nor a legal scholar, but I read this case as a situation in which the Owners overreached and underestimated the Players' resolve and tactics. Judge Nelson's ruling seems to put a punctuation mark behind that view.

Both sides have valid arguments to make. The Owners have billions of dollars of capital at stake; the Players their talent and careers.

As your comment indicates, the argument that the Owners aren't effectively functioning as a monopoly is ridiculous since the history of the AFL 50 years ago teaches us that it would take around a decade for a truly competitive league to form and thrive. On the other hand, its ridiculous to suggest that the Players aren't already getting a pretty good deal with Revenue Sharing as it is currently constituted.

I think it's time for both sides to indicate that they've "made their point." The Owners have established that they can demand a return to the bargaining table to renegotiate the Revenue Split. The Players have established that they can stand up to the Owners and get a couple of judges and, probably, an Appellate Court to take their side.

If the Owners want a bigger piece of the pie, they're going to have to show why that's a legitimate demand and that might entail opening their books. If the Players want the owners to remain incented to invest in their franchises, the NFL and its brand, they're going to have to give more than they want to give.
 
But we're not talking about how the NFL treats the UFL; we're talking about the (supposed) claim that the NFL can say to their own players "hey, we're not a monopoly because you're free to play for these other football leagues if you want."

There isn't a court in the country that would accept such an argument (which explains why the NFL has not bothered even wasting their time making that contention).

Why not? NFL players can and have played for the UFL and when they were around the AFL. If one player left from the NFL to the UFL, the players would have a hard argument against that. The only legal argument they could argue is that the NFL blocks them for working in their trade, not work in their trade and make as much money as they could make with the NFL. The NFL has no bearing on how much an UFL team can play. They don't stop the players from getting jobs in other professions. There is no law that states that a corporation must allow companies to exist that are in the same profession and pay the same amount. As long as the NFL lets other leagues exist, they are considered competition in terms of the law. In fact, if it wasn't for the CBA, the NFL could easily pay low run players minimum wage if they wanted to and someone was willing to play for that much.

Now there are tons of other antitrust violations that the NFL could be in violation of if they are stripped of their exemptions (which may be the case with no union or CBA), but anti-competitiveness laws in terms of alternative employment for the players is not one of them.

Microsoft has also lost tons of such lawsuits. If you want to use them as an example, I'm afraid you're going to have to be a bit more specific, otherwise the example is meaningless.

Microsoft have won most of the anti-trust lawsuits against them. At least the major cases, them losing is the exemption not the rule. Prior to the 1998 settlement, I am pretty sure Microsoft won most of their antitrust cases against them. Even that case got watereddown on appeal with the government unable to break up Microsoft. They did settle in 1994 not to tie sales of additional products to Windows, but they ended up just giving them away (IE ended up becoming freeware in Windows rather part of the plus pack). It is easier to find the ones they lost or compromised.

I do remember the FTC investigation that started in 90 or 91 was dropped because they couldn't find sufficient evidence to move forward on their "monopoly" on the operating system market. It wasn't until Microsoft started to bundle products with the operating system to gain domination in other software markets that they started to lose cases because that was an overt monopolistic act. They have never lost a case purely on their dominance in the operating system market though.
 
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Not really. The issue that the owners were trying to hang their hats on in this matter is just a 7 hour window that would have been after the courts had closed, and that was only regarding their ability to contest the decertification as a sham in the first place, as opposed to any form of proof that such a decert actually was a sham. Is it possible that the judge could have ruled in their favor? Sure, anything's possible. Was it ever likely? No.

Yes, Really. Townes question had nothing to do with what was said. Just like it had nothing to do with what I stated earlier when he posed the question to me.

If you knew much of anything regarding the law, particularly business law, you'd know that the timing of things is everything.

The fact is that the players decertified PRIOR to the end of the CBA so that they would not have to wait 6 months to re-certify.

In doing so prior to the end of the CBA, they forfeited their rights to certain anti-trust lawsuits.

The judge ruling otherwise just opened it up for the other 3 Major Sports Leagues to file similar lawsuits despite any language stating otherwise.

And it means that ANY of the other 3 sports unions can threaten decertification in an attempt to bully the owners into giving up anything.
 
Not making anything up but i did mistake one of e unum's pro owner posts for yours and since both are so hyperbolic and poorly informed that it is an easy mistake to make.

I hate to break it to you, but the one who is poorly informed is yourself. But, that's ok. You've already proven that you will just make things up as you go.
 
If you are right she will be overturned, the question is whether you will admit you are wrong when that doesn't happen. i'm guessing you will just call the 8th circuit imbecilic.


The Judge certainly understands the specifics of the decertification and found it valid, the claim she doesn't and didn't consider it is simply foolish.


Unlike you, I have admitted to mistakes plenty of times over the years. Come back when you do so for the first.
 
If you knew much of anything regarding the law, particularly business law, you'd know that the timing of things is everything.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Deus is a lawyer.
 
That isn't neccessarily true. As long as the NFL doesn't engage in practices to keep a league like UFL down, by the law they are legitmate competitors to the NFL. If you open a small shop, you are a legitimate competitor according to the law.

Microsoft won tons of antitrust lawsuits when they had somewhere around 80-90% of the operating system market and even engaged in activities which you could argue limited the ability of other companies to break in. Have an overwhelmingly dominant share of the market does not neccessarily make you a monopoly in the eyes of the law. It is the dominance and the practice of making it impossible for a company to break into the market and get a piece of the pie.

If the UFL can put together a league and get a fraction of the NFL's popularity and the NFL does nothing to stop them from doing business, the law may very well consider them legitimate competition to the NFL. The law and common sense are not always on the same page.

One of the things that the NFL did to was enter into an agreement with the UFL regarding players. The the NFL won't poach players from the UFL without a fee being paid to the UFL.

One of the things that also happened is that players who were under contract with NFL teams signed with the AFL... The NFL did nothing about it.
 
The NFL's application for a stay is really good. I don't know if it's available yet on line. Two key parts are copied below. First is the section on the appropriate standard in the trial court for a stay pending appeal. As you'll see, the District of Minnesota has dealt with the problem that district court judges usually think they are correct, but that's not the standard -- the standard is whether the issues on appeal are "wholly free from doubt." Second are the two paragraphs from the brief that, I think, go to the heart of what the issues are on appeal and what I tried to discuss above. I think where the NFL really nails her is where she said there is no "temporal gloss" on the words "labor dispute" in Norris Laguardia. What she means by this is that a labor dispute can be ended immediately, by decertification, and it's over at that instant. The NFL says that's silly -- the statute itself creats a "temporal gloss," by using the word "growing out of" a labor dispute. Obviously, something that "grow out of" a labor dispute comes after the labor dispute.

Judge Nelson, unfortunatley, isn't a rocket scientist. She tends to use big words without fully understanding them. Not saying she'll be overruled, but the NFL tags her really good.

Standard

A district court considering a stay motion will seldom, if ever, believe that it is likely that the movant will prevail on appeal; the court ordinarily assumes that the appellate court will agree with its own ruling. But that does not mean that stays are or should be rarely granted. Instead, “district courts properly stay their own orders when they have ruled on an admittedly difficult legal question and when the equities of the case suggest that the
status quo should be maintained.” Protect Our Water v. Flowers, 377 F. Supp. 2d 882, 884 (E.D. Cal. 2004). Accord, e.g., Exxon Corp. v. Esso Worker’s Union, 963 F. Supp. 58, 60 (D. Mass. 1997); Jock v. Sterling, 738 F. Supp. 2d 445, 447 (S.D.N.Y. 2010). In such a case, the “likelihood of success” factor is satisfied “when the ‘question presented ... is not wholly without doubt.’” Lakehead Pipe Line Co. v. Investment Advisors, Inc., 900 F. Supp. 234, 235 (D. Minn. 1995) (quoting In re Worker’s Compensation Refund, 851 F. Supp. 1399, 1401 (D. Minn. 1994)) (alteration in original).

Merits Discussion

This case raises several “substantial and novel legal questions” regarding both this Court’s jurisdiction and the contours of the nonstatutory labor exemption. Accordingly, the NFL need show only that the questions presented by its appeal are “not wholly without doubt.” In re Worker’s Compensation Refund, 851 F. Supp. at 1401. The NFL easily meets this threshold.

First, it is “not wholly without doubt” that, because of the Norris-LaGuardia Act, the Court lacked jurisdiction to issue the Order. No court had ever before entered an injunction barring a lockout (except for one court whose injunction was dissolved on appeal.) Consistent with the Act’s plain language, a number of other courts have held that the Act bars antitrust injunctions against lockouts, and that its protections are not tied to the existence of a union. (See Opp. 9-16.). The Court concluded that it was “not convinced” that the Norris-LaGuardia Act applies here because of the NFLPA’s disclaimer. (Order 61.) It is “not wholly without doubt” that the Eighth Circuit will agree. The Court determined that there is no “temporal gloss” on the Act’s definition of a “labor dispute,” (Order 58), but the Act expressly applies not just to cases involving labor disputes, but to cases “growing out of” them, 29 U.S.C. § 104, providing an express temporal connection.

The Court also concluded that it was “not convinced that the Norris-LaGuardia Act applies, absent the present existence of a union, so as to prohibit or condition injunctions.” (Order 61.) But the Supreme Court has
already held that the Act applies to a dispute between employees and employers in which no union at all was involved. See New Negro Alliance v. Sanitary Grocery Co., 303 U.S. 552, 561 (1938). And the plain language of the Act defines a labor dispute as one that includes a controversy over terms or conditions of employment that “involves persons who are engaged in the same industry, trade, craft or occupation” and is “between one or more employers … and one or more employees.” 29 U.S.C. § 113(a). In addition, the fact that the Act expressly defines persons “participating or interested in a labor dispute” to include both employers and employees, id. § 113(b), indicates that the Court’s skepticism about whether Section 4 of the Act can apply to lockouts may be misplaced.


Good info; thanks!
 
That isn't neccessarily true. As long as the NFL doesn't engage in practices to keep a league like UFL down, by the law they are legitmate competitors to the NFL. If you open a small shop, you are a legitimate competitor according to the law.

Microsoft won tons of antitrust lawsuits when they had somewhere around 80-90% of the operating system market and even engaged in activities which you could argue limited the ability of other companies to break in. Have an overwhelmingly dominant share of the market does not neccessarily make you a monopoly in the eyes of the law. It is the dominance and the practice of making it impossible for a company to break into the market and get a piece of the pie.

If the UFL can put together a league and get a fraction of the NFL's popularity and the NFL does nothing to stop them from doing business, the law may very well consider them legitimate competition to the NFL. The law and common sense are not always on the same page.

The NFL franchises do engage in restraint of trade vis a vis the UFL franchises in that the 32 teams collectively agree not to schedule games with non-NFL teams. Since the NFL has no collective bargaining agreement with the UFL franchises, their ability to act in concert to keep owners of other pro football teams from competing in their league depends on an antitrust exemption.
 
While Schefter may have mentioned that the NFLPA is operating as a trade association, the reality is that they are not. They are operating as a UNION.

Not legally DaBruinz.

You already know what they gave up as well as I do. But, once this crap is over, its right back to be being a union - legally. We both see that.

That flies in the face of the LEGAL DOCUMENTS that they filed. Ones that the judge IGNORED.

The law isnt clear cut at all.

If youve ever been on the losing end of a court battle that you should have won, you know what I mean.

Judge Nelson IGNORED all the stipulations that the previous CBA had in it to prevent this situation. Stipulations that the PLAYERS agreed to. She basically said that the players can do whatever the hell they want, they don't have to follow the legal agreements they make.

Judge Nelson = another idiot judge who should be disbarred for stupidity.

I hope she gets overturned. The fastest way back to a new CBA is with a lockout. The players would cave for monetary reasons. Im all for a fair deal for both sides.
 
1.) Under current law, in the absence of a union, there can be no league/business-wide lockout, because it's a clear cut case of collusion. Pretty basic. It's why the "single entity" issue was so important to the NFL in the American Needle case.

2.) You continue to confuse the "RIGHT" involved here. In the case at bar, the question was the "RIGHT" of the owners, in concert (a/k/a the league), to keep the players locked out in the absence of a union, not the "RIGHT" of the players to work. Again, pretty basic.

3.) Once you conceded that the NFL was a monopoly, you lost the ability to equate the NFL with any other football league in the United States, since they are clearly not U.S. monopolies. Monopolies have different rules from other companies. In this case, I didn't even bring up the idea of the monopoly, you did, and you hurt your own argument in the process.

And leave the personal shots out of this. You're not getting anything right, so it's just making you look more foolish.

I leave the looking foolish to you, Deus. I have plenty right.

As Rob just pointed out, it may not matter if the NFL is a monopoly or not. Especially since it has entered into agreements with the UFL regarding player rights and such. So their status as a monopoly, is not as strong as it once was.

Now. To burst your bubble further, You ARE the one who brought up monopolies. Until you decided to start your replies, all I had said was that the NFL was not the only professional football employer and that the idea that they had somehow restricted the players was BS.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...n-rules-favor-players-page18.html#post2526643

Clear, I said nothing about monopolies there. It was you.

Now, the player's association sure seems to be acting like a Union. They want to negotiate like one. What's the saying about "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck"??

Oh.. yeah.. since when do "Trade Associations" form to equalize the bargaining power between employers and employees as regards wages, hours, and terms of employment.

Trade Associations, by definition, don't do bargaining.
 
Yes, I am, but don't stop DaBruinz. He thinks he's on a roll.

Yes, a lawyer who has so much free time to be able to blather on aimlessly for hours on end on here but not have a law practice to deal with..



Keep up the great work, Deus.
 
The NFL franchises do engage in restraint of trade vis a vis the UFL franchises in that the 32 teams collectively agree not to schedule games with non-NFL teams. Since the NFL has no collective bargaining agreement with the UFL franchises, their ability to act in concert to keep owners of other pro football teams from competing in their league depends on an antitrust exemption.

The NFL has an anti-trust exemption to act as a collective. So what they do is not monopolistic, anti-competive, or illegal in the eyes of the law. The anti-trust exemption they have for this is separate from any exemption they have given to them through a CBA. That is very different from not having competition by law that the players can play with.

In fact, they can point to the USFL as a case where a league was created competed successfully in stealing away players with better salaries than the NFL and got plenty of national attention. Just because the teams were severely mismanaged and went bankrupt, doesn't exclude the fact that the NFL has a long history of allowing other leagues to be formed and given a chance to thrive. Most of the leagues failed because of poor management and lack of fan interest (which is not the NFL's responsibility). For example, the XFL failed because the games and all the goofball rules and gimmicks were horrible, not because the NFL stopped them from being a league.
 
One of the things that the NFL did to was enter into an agreement with the UFL regarding players. The the NFL won't poach players from the UFL without a fee being paid to the UFL.

One of the things that also happened is that players who were under contract with NFL teams signed with the AFL... The NFL did nothing about it.

The agreement with the UFL alone is significant proof the NFL is not engaging in anti-competitve practices when it comes to other leagues.
 
I hope she gets overturned. The fastest way back to a new CBA is with a lockout. The players would cave for monetary reasons. Im all for a fair deal for both sides.

See, I disagree. I see the enjoinment of the lockout as the fastest way to a new CBA. At present, the owners are the only ones who benefit from prolonging the labor dispute, as they are clearly in better position to endure a work stoppage than the players. Absent the ability to lock the players out, and forced to institute temporary terms that won't open them up to further antitrust violations, the owners lose all incentive to drag the negotiation process out.

Operating under provisional terms creates uncertainty and instability for both players and franchises alike, and works to the benefit of neither, therefore giving neither party any incentive to keep dragging things out.
 
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