Cameron Heyward vs. Ron Brace

[Fencer]

Assume Warren comes back healthy enough to be a good starter. Then he and Wilfork have two of the starting DL roles. Anybody else who wants to start has to beat out a bunch of other guys, including Ron Brace.

So how will Heyward be better than Brace? And vice-versa?

 

[serifyn]

Ron Brace was drafted as a backup nose tackle and replacement for Wilfork if they couldent resign him. he has been playing in warrens position and backing up NT a bit to rest wilfork.

i dont think he has the prototypical size or quickness the patriots are looking for at the 5, so anyone they bring in who does fit the mold would immediately have the edge over brace (or anyone else currently on the roster for that matter).

 

[stinkypete]

Brace was a mid-round pick who rose due to the overabundance of 3-4 teams. Heyward was a potential top 10 pick who slipped due to injuries and a couple bad games.

Until we see more from both, I'm gonna say the talent wins out.

 

[MaineMan]

Ron Brace was drafted as a backup nose tackle and replacement for Wilfork if they couldent resign him. he has been playing in warrens position and backing up NT a bit to rest wilfork.

i dont think he has the prototypical size or quickness the patriots are looking for at the 5, so anyone they bring in who does fit the mold would immediately have the edge over brace (or anyone else currently on the roster for that matter).

Agree with this.

I'd go a bit further and argue that Brace played LDE primarily because there really wasn't anyone else on the roster who came as close to fitting the role. Although, it never hurts for your backup NT (and, possible 40-front sub-package DT) to have extensive experience at DE, whether it's his optimal position or not.

Also, the fact that the Pats signed 6'6"/310 Stroud and didn't re-sign 6'4"/330 Gerard Warren, though they appear to be fairly equal in other respects such as age and experience in a 3-4, might be used as evidence that the "prototypical size" thing is fairly important to BB.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Unfortunately Heyward didn't run at the combine to compare other numbers but he's just more athletic than Brace. Brace was ungodly slow running a 5.48 40. Heyward ran a 4.95 at his workout. Brace is a solid depth guy but it's definitely not optimal for him to be starting.

 

[Wilfork#75]

If it is Wilfork and Warren starting, then Heyward would have a big advantage over Brace because he is a much better fit at RDE. I don't think Brace has the athletecism to play RDE, where I think Heyward could be a stud there. I do think Brace could be a very good LDE, but only if he has a strong edge setting OLB outside him.

 

[mgteich]

I don't know which would be better and why. i would rather find out than to simply rely on Brace, and hope.

I would fine if Brace beat out Heyward for reps. Competition would be a good thing.

Warren/Stroud, Wilfork, Brace/Heyward
Wright, Pryor, Love

Assume Warren comes back healthy enough to be a good starter. Then he and Wilfork have two of the starting DL roles. Anybody else who wants to start has to beat out a bunch of other guys, including Ron Brace.

So how will Heyward be better than Brace? And vice-versa?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I don't know which would be better and why. i would rather find out than to simply rely on Brace, and hope.

I would fine if Brace beat out Heyward for reps. Competition would be a good thing.

Warren/Stroud, Wilfork, Brace/Heyward
Wright, Pryor, Love

What if Jordan falls to#17? Do we take him?

On tape he is clearly superior to Watt, Heyward and even Wilkerson. And he seems perfectly suited to play opposite Warren because he can get into the backfield while maintaining gap discipline.

He needs more sand in the pants,but he has more then enough functional strength to thrive in our defense while he gets bigger.

 

[serifyn]

Any of the 4 DEs mocked to the patriots would work well in their system, it really comes down to which one the patriots like the best/value.

you might be able to get Jordan or Watt at 17, you might be able to get Wilkerson or Heyward at 28.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Any of the 4 DEs mocked to the patriots would work well in their system, it really comes down to which one the patriots like the best/value.

you might be able to get Jordan or Watt at 17, you might be able to get Wilkerson or Heyward at 28.

As far as heyward vs. Brace, besides the huge athleticism gap I think heyward has a much higher ceiling in this D. Brace is a run stopper where as heyward is also a run stopper than could evolve into a threat against the pass as well.

Of the 4 horseman I think the best run stoppers are heyward and Wilkerson. In my mind BB will 1st look to that quality and then to pass rush ability. Cam Jordan is not better against the run than either of those guys and neither is watt. Which could make them liabilities in the base. Between watt and Jordan give me watt. And between heyward/Wilkerson give me heyward. I don't see Wilkerson as being anything other than a run stopper. Heyward and watt have the highest ceiling of these four guys.

 

[MaineMan]

As far as heyward vs. Brace, besides the huge athleticism gap I think heyward has a much higher ceiling in this D. Brace is a run stopper where as heyward is also a run stopper than could evolve into a threat against the pass as well.

Of the 4 horseman I think the best run stoppers are heyward and Wilkerson. In my mind BB will 1st look to that quality and then to pass rush ability. Cam Jordan is not better against the run than either of those guys and neither is watt. Which could make them liabilities in the base. Between watt and Jordan give me watt. And between heyward/Wilkerson give me heyward. I don't see Wilkerson as being anything other than a run stopper. Heyward and watt have the highest ceiling of these four guys.

In a fantasy world, we'd get a combo of either Heyward at RDE and Wilkerson as an early successor to Ty Warren at LDE - OR - Heyward for LDE and Watt for RDE. But I'm not sure that anyone on the Pats' staff smokes enough "righteous herb" to actually make that happen.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Assume Warren comes back healthy enough to be a good starter. Then he and Wilfork have two of the starting DL roles. Anybody else who wants to start has to beat out a bunch of other guys, including Ron Brace.

So how will Heyward be better than Brace? And vice-versa?

Based on potential, Heyward appears to have more talent then Brace. You perhaps could argue that these players have some similarities, Brace was a wide body getting by on size and talent who needed a full year of the Vince Wilfork Motivational Backside Kicking Academy to move beyond warm body and begin life as a football player. Heyward, from much of what I saw this season, was inconsistent, and only played to his potential in his bowl game when the sent of NFL cash was strongest. If NE thought another underachieving early second DL around Brace's #40 pick was a good candidate for the VWMBK Academy, I'm okay with the value range and the player targeted there. I don't see the guy anywhere in #17-#33 range for NE.

As for those claiming Brace was drafted to be a reserve NT, please quote BB and link to his quote to substantiate your claim. If we go back to reports on Brace from his rookie Training Camp, we have keen observers such as Patsfanken reporting Brace drilling at defensive end more often by far then NT. You may wish to argue this was cross-training, yet the miracle of our television screen often shows Brace at DE, and rarely at NT. I submit Brace was drafted to play on the D-line, with no predisposition to force him into NT or DE or 3-tech or 1-shade.

 

[MaineMan]

Based on potential, Heyward appears to have more talent then Brace. You perhaps could argue that these players have some similarities, Brace was a wide body getting by on size and talent who needed a full year of the Vince Wilfork Motivational Backside Kicking Academy to move beyond warm body and begin life as a football player. Heyward, from much of what I saw this season, was inconsistent, and only played to his potential in his bowl game when the sent of NFL cash was strongest. If NE thought another underachieving early second DL around Brace's #40 pick was a good candidate for the VWMBK Academy, I'm okay with the value range and the player targeted there. I don't see the guy anywhere in #17-#33 range for NE.

As for those claiming Brace was drafted to be a reserve NT, please quote BB and link to his quote to substantiate your claim. If we go back to reports on Brace from his rookie Training Camp, we have keen observers such as Patsfanken reporting Brace drilling at defensive end more often by far then NT. You may wish to argue this was cross-training, yet the miracle of our television screen often shows Brace at DE, and rarely at NT. I submit Brace was drafted to play on the D-line, with no predisposition to force him into NT or DE or 3-tech or 1-shade.

Heh. This is a trick, right? Has BB ever actually stated publicly,"Well, we drafted this guy specifically for such-and-such position"??

Admittedly (at least on my part), it's a surmise based, however thinly, on Brace's body type compared to the body types of guys BB has drafted in the past who ended up playing primarily at 30-front DE (which is also a pretty small sample size). It also seems to me that those guys worked for some time at DT while developing for their eventual DE role, so, such "cross-training" wouldn't be unusual. And Brace has also spent some time as the second DT in 40-fronts and, frankly, he looked most comfortable and productive in that role.

But, still, the fact that Brace has spent so many game snaps at 34DE can be attributed to the fact that we simply had no one healthy on the roster who was a better fit at the time (in 2010). Perhaps if G. Warren (or even Deaderick or Love) had been better at DE, we might have seen Brace more at NT flanked by G. Warren and Wilfork. So, none of this necessarily means to me that he was ever intended to assume that role as a full time starter (or even primary reserve) for a period of years.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Heh. This is a trick, right? Has BB ever actually stated publicly,"Well, we drafted this guy specifically for such-and-such position"??

Admittedly (at least on my part), it's a surmise based, however thinly, on Brace's body type compared to the body types of guys BB has drafted in the past who ended up playing primarily at 30-front DE (which is also a pretty small sample size). It also seems to me that those guys worked for some time at DT while developing for their eventual DE role, so, such "cross-training" wouldn't be unusual. And Brace has also spent some time as the second DT in 40-fronts and, frankly, he looked most comfortable and productive in that role.

But, still, the fact that Brace has spent so many game snaps at 34DE can be attributed to the fact that we simply had no one healthy on the roster who was a better fit at the time (in 2010). Perhaps if G. Warren (or even Deaderick or Love) had been better at DE, we might have seen Brace more at NT flanked by G. Warren and Wilfork. So, none of this necessarily means to me that he was ever intended to assume that role as a full time starter (or even primary reserve) for a period of years.

I'm a trickster a heart, when I'm not meditating on the beauty of the cardboard containing my illustrious mental capacity. In this case your "surmise" is no more or less then my own at the time, and for the same reasons. I merely point to fresher evidence from observers at TC and my own TV to suggest our paradigm is once again being Belichicked (for lack of a more applicable term). It's a good thing I like sly, eccentric head coaches.

 

[MaineMan]

I'm a trickster a heart, when I'm not meditating on the beauty of the cardboard containing my illustrious mental capacity. In this case your "surmise" is no more or less then my own at the time, and for the same reasons. I merely point to fresher evidence from observers at TC and my own TV to suggest our paradigm is once again being Belichicked (for lack of a more applicable term). It's a good thing I like sly, eccentric head coaches.

I often substitute "diabolical". Arrington at LDE against Manning. You know Manning had to get at least a brief "WTF?!" moment out of that. Might've made all the difference.

 

[Off The Grid]

I often substitute "diabolical".

Arrington at LDE against Manning.

You know Manning had to get at least a brief "WTF?!" moment out of that.

Might've made all the difference.

You Know That's Right!! :rocker:

 

[mgteich]

You are right. We drafted a 330 player who was the slowest player in the entire draft to play DE when our #1 issue was the possibility that Wilfork might leave.

Obviously, then and now, we simply agree that Brace was the best play on Belichick's board, ahead of WR Massaquoi, DE/LB Barwin, OG/C LeVitre and OG/C Unger.

Personally, then and now, I believe that Brace was Wilfork insurance. Obviously Wilfork stayed and Belichick developed Brace into a different role. Whether Brace is a DE or NT now is somewhat irrelevant. Obviously, he is now a DE. I would still hope that he might be a better NT than Love, saving a roster spot.

Based on potential, Heyward appears to have more talent then Brace. You perhaps could argue that these players have some similarities, Brace was a wide body getting by on size and talent who needed a full year of the Vince Wilfork Motivational Backside Kicking Academy to move beyond warm body and begin life as a football player. Heyward, from much of what I saw this season, was inconsistent, and only played to his potential in his bowl game when the sent of NFL cash was strongest. If NE thought another underachieving early second DL around Brace's #40 pick was a good candidate for the VWMBK Academy, I'm okay with the value range and the player targeted there. I don't see the guy anywhere in #17-#33 range for NE.

As for those claiming Brace was drafted to be a reserve NT, please quote BB and link to his quote to substantiate your claim. If we go back to reports on Brace from his rookie Training Camp, we have keen observers such as Patsfanken reporting Brace drilling at defensive end more often by far then NT. You may wish to argue this was cross-training, yet the miracle of our television screen often shows Brace at DE, and rarely at NT. I submit Brace was drafted to play on the D-line, with no predisposition to force him into NT or DE or 3-tech or 1-shade.

 

[Seneschal2]

So how will Heyward be better than Brace? And vice-versa?

Can't answer the question...but an opinion I usually respect (Nolan Nawrocki) has some interesting comments regarding Heyward -- if they're accurate:

Ohio State's draft class isn't turning many heads - Wire - Lifestyle - bellinghamherald.com

 

[Fencer]

That's a pretty damning article about Heyward. It says, in effect, that he's leaving college without yet having developed any instincts for making plays. Given that his NFL pedigree might have anything given me a head start, that leaves me quite concerned about whether he'll get there in the pros.

I'm not a big fan of Ohio State players anyway, but I must admit that Mike Vrabel is a huge counterexample, and anyhow the last time I met any OSU players was 1976 (and one of those was Tim Fox).

 

[MaineMan]

That's a pretty damning article about Heyward. It says, in effect, that he's leaving college without yet having developed any instincts for making plays. Given that his NFL pedigree might have anything given me a head start, that leaves me quite concerned about whether he'll get there in the pros.

I'm not a big fan of Ohio State players anyway, but I must admit that Mike Vrabel is a huge counterexample, and anyhow the last time I met any OSU players was 1976 (and one of those was Tim Fox).

Read it. Didn't come to that conclusion based on Nawrocki's excerpted conference call remarks.