Patriots offered Mankins Top 3 Guard Pay

[Kontradiction]

While I'm in here, I think I should state my original case on this that I laid out to emoney_33 before the negotiations even started. The maximum that I wanted to pay Mankins would have been $8M/per. However, a fair contract that I would have considered for Mankins would have been a 5 year/$35.5M contract. That would have set Mankins up until his was 33, gave him $7.1M per year (extremely fair for him), and would have given the Patriots two guys under 30 (Mankins and Vollmer) for which they could have built a new, younger O-Line around. Now, if the reported deal is true and Mankins is waving his hand at it, he can go pound sand. If what Bauer is saying is correct and the Pats offered him considerably lower than that, then the Pats need to anty up and Bauer and Mankins need to approach the table with a more reasonable tone.

I just wish that there was more that we knew at this point.

 

[ausbacker]

I hear you on this, but it takes two to tango. With so many unknown factors involved in this, what makes you think that the Pats would be willing to consider a trade for Mankins at this point?

If Mankins is truly intent on leaving and the Patriots aren't going to get service from him then it's smart business to strike a deal for him with his prospective buyer. That would be the common sense approach to it I would think.

 

[Ring 6]

Mankins is definitely taking a huge chance.

If there's a lockout, his decision will be considered absurd.

Two years without a paycheck, and then he's offering up his skills as a 31 year old guard who missed two seasons and hasn't played football in that time.

On the free agent market, how much would you pay this guy if your an a football team? More than the $7 million the Patriots offered him?

Why is he doing this? After taxes/commission, we're talking a few hundred thou a year difference.

I don't get it, why would he take such a risk.

Seriously, if there's a lockout, how much do you pay a 31 year old guard two years removed from football?

It really is uncharted territory.
What would his status be then? You cant say because the CBA is unknown. If he and the 2 Chargers hold out all season I find it hard to believe a new CBA would set them free. He could also be franchised, depending on those rules.
But to your point, not only would he be off 2 years, but there would be 2 draft classes. No one knows what the cap will be, so teams may not have cap room for FA, or enough to match the kind of money being thrown around now. Evans isnt just the highest paid G right now, he is the highest paid EVER. Will the salary inflation continue? Will there have to be contraction? Would a missed season reduce revenues and lower the 2012 cap? That seems like a reasonable possibility.
I just find it hard to believe that the guy quoted in Breers article whining who has done absolutely nothing toward this contract negotiation has given good advice to his client regarding all of those issues.
One reason to have an agent is to remove emotion from the process. The process has been nothing but emotion so far.

 

[Ring 6]

If Mankins is truly intent on leaving and the Patriots aren't going to get service from him then it's smart business to strike a deal for him with his prospective buyer. That would be the common sense approach to it I would think.

I think trading him would be an awful move by the Pats. I dont think they will get much, if any more than the compensatory pick they would get it he signed as a FA elsewhere, and the longer he sits, the more likely he is to soften his stance and end up playing for the Pats.

 

[ausbacker]

I think trading him would be an awful move by the Pats. I dont think they will get much, if any more than the compensatory pick they would get it he signed as a FA elsewhere, and the longer he sits, the more likely he is to soften his stance and end up playing for the Pats.

Someone will pay for him especially since he and Bauer view him as a top 3 guard in the NFL. This is the assumption around the entire Logan Mankins issue.

The longer it plays out the longer it works into the Patriots hands as you've rightfully pointed out. As it stands I'd like to keep Mankins but not at the expense of warping the Patriots salary structure.

 

[Kontradiction]

Someone will pay for him especially since he and Bauer view him as a top 3 guard in the NFL. This is the assumption around the entire Logan Mankins issue.

The longer it plays out the longer it works into the Patriots hands as you've rightfully pointed out. As it stands I'd like to keep Mankins but not at the expense of warping the Patriots salary structure.

So you think that the 5 years/$35M that's been reported is too high?

 

[ausbacker]

So you think that the 5 years/$35M that's been reported is too high?

If the league source reference is true then no I don't. I'd consider that in the ball park range (upper echelon) exceptionally fair value for Mankins.

 

[Ring 6]

Someone will pay for him especially since he and Bauer view him as a top 3 guard in the NFL. This is the assumption around the entire Logan Mankins issue.

The longer it plays out the longer it works into the Patriots hands as you've rightfully pointed out. As it stands I'd like to keep Mankins but not at the expense of warping the Patriots salary structure.

How many teams would trade for Mankiins in order to make him the highest paid G in NFL history? His demands could well be what kills an trade market there would be.
I dont see how we would get much, if any more than the 3rd we wouod get as comp from a team that would have to then hand over that contract, esp in this landscape of the CBA.

 

[ausbacker]

How many teams would trade for Mankiins in order to make him the highest paid G in NFL history? His demands could well be what kills an trade market there would be.
I dont see how we would get much, if any more than the 3rd we wouod get as comp from a team that would have to then hand over that contract, esp in this landscape of the CBA.

You've effectively answered why Frank Bauer has screwed his client with poor advice.

 

[Miguel]

In which article. I was reading the one posted a day or so ago.

The first report that the Patriots offered Mankins a 5-year $35 million deal.

 

[Miguel]

For the record it's pretty clear most of Breer's information is coming from Mankins agent.

It is not for the record. It is your opinion. Why would his agent leaked in June that he rejected a 5-year $35 million offer? Why would he later then say that there was never a five -year offer?

It's highly likely that each version of any deal the Pats offered to Mankins was first vetted with the management council to insure it was in compliance with the current CBA.

Talk about assumptions. There have been deals in which the NFLPA and Management Council have later rejected because the deals were not in compliance with the CBA.

Uncapped year forcing New Orleans Saints, agents to get creative with contracts | NOLA.com
"All three deals had to be resubmitted to the league last week because of an unrelated issue with some of the guaranteed money, but they have since been approved."

It was reported again that a contract was rejected because it did not comply with the CBA but I can not remember where I read it.

 

[Miguel]

Here is the article in question. Angry Mankins wants a trade - The Boston Globe


It says according to an NFL source, meaning not an agent.

Around that time Breer used the team "league source".

 

[MoLewisrocks]

In thinking this over I think what likely happened is the Patriots did what they often do, didn't play the game and screw around and hurl insults or kudos at team Mankins. First they hit him with the tender because short of getting a deal done in two weeks they had to. Then they put what they described as their best offer on the table. They were of course willing to discuss some of the details and structure, but the parameters were what they were. This would explain the lack of counter since the only thing to be countered was details. Mankins looked at an offer that was well short of what he'd led himself to believe would have constituted taking care of him and realizing for perhaps the first time this FO didn't value him as the best freakin' guard in the game he went into a low boil that culminated on the day the tender had to be signed or it could be reduced when he realized they weren't going to call him and say Logan, sorry man, what were we thinking... That's the day he unloaded, after sitting in Foxboro for two weeks stewing intensly without he or his rep making a trip to the facility or having any contact with management...

I think the idea that they lowball everyone is urban legend fed by players who don't want anyone outside the organization to think that is truly what they value them at. We've seen several FA lowballed in the last couple of seasons only to end up signing here for the exact same offer weeks or months later because no one trumped it. We've also seen Moss extended for top 3 WR money and Welker signed for what many thought was a premium for a freakin' slot receiver, and AD signed to a market deal that might have been a couple of bucks less than a west coast team he wasn't interested in was supposedly willing to offer, We've seen Colvin signed to a market deal, we've seen PS players paid premiums to remain here, we've seen backups paid borderline starter money and while they backed up was in line for and given a top of the market deal.

What they will not do is overpay value just because some other guy did. They set a value on a player and it is what it is. You can claim they undervalue, but looking at those who left and in some cases those we passed on signing, it would be a tough case to make. Seattle lived to regret paying Branch, Tennessee certainly regretted paying Givens almost immediately. The Redskins roster is born of regret, although it was nice to see a good guy like Chief cash in at Snyders expense). After 2006 Polian probably wished he hadn't committed long term $$ to Vinatieri... The jury is still out on Samuel but Philly is certainly beginning to wonder what they bargained for... Law had to relocate 4 times in the last 5 seasons because he wasn't what he thought he was anymore and in all that time the best he could do was earn what we'd offered him to stay here... RAC thought Willie was well worth another $12M... Meanwhile bottom line Bill found a way to let Rodney and Tedy and Troy retire as Patriots, probably in part because of not overpaying for guys at the top of their market.

You don't build a winning NFL team by overpaying to retain or overpaying to collect talent. If that were the case Snyder and Jones and Wilf and even Lurie or the lowly Lions would have a collection of Lombardi's to validate their hype. Logan Mankins may not like what BB values him at. Ultimately he may end up playing for someone who appears to value him higher. Odds are he won't see the end of that deal if he in face ever finds it. And if he holds out this season and there is a lockout in 2011, I guarantee you he will never recoup what he lost because he became entrenched in his belief that his were the only principles that mattered. What he will find is as Kevin Faulk says the grass isn't remotely greener...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Around that time Breer used the team "league source".

From a media perspective a league source can be anyone loosely connected to the league including agents, members of the NFL executive committee or their gophers and copy boys, or anyone they pass information along to like players or FO personnel from other teams who "hear things" from the afore mentioned...

As we found out during 2007 confidentiality is a huge, often agenda driven issue in the league offices and among those within the league who serve on various committees.

 

[Ring 6]

The first report that the Patriots offered Mankins a 5-year $35 million deal.

I dont see a significance in whether the Pats are negotiating through the media or not so may this is nitpicking.
But if the only reference we have to that happening is that in the article where Mankins says he was lied to and cheated there is a comment from an NFL source, it seems likely that a call was made TO the team (I will accept NFL source=Patriots although I dont understand why team source was not used) and they commented. They have been silent since.
I think it would be overdramatizing to say that amounts to negotiating through the media.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It is not for the record. It is your opinion. Why would his agent leaked in June that he rejected a 5-year $35 million offer? Why would he later then say that there was never a five -year offer?

Curran was the one who broke the 5/$35 story. He claimed a league source who again could have been anyone from J. Kraft to the copy boy in Floyd's office to someone affiliated with the agent or the league who reviewed the proposed deal. The details that are coming out this weekend are all flowing from Bauer who is talking to everyone who calls except Curran, apparently.


Talk about assumptions. There have been deals in which the NFLPA and Management Council have later rejected because the deals were not in compliance with the CBA.

Uncapped year forcing New Orleans Saints, agents to get creative with contracts | NOLA.com
"All three deals had to be resubmitted to the league last week because of an unrelated issue with some of the guaranteed money, but they have since been approved."

It was reported again that a contract was rejected because it did not comply with the CBA but I can not remember where I read it.

Yup, and there are also deals that get vetted for questions before being inked and officially submitted. A few weeks ago the Colts were rumored to be testing Manning deal structures with the management council to determine in advance their strategic options. Particularly when agents and FO's are toying with potential ends around restrictive rules they will pre submit a deal to avoid the problem of agreeing to something that won't fly...

Don't you ever wonder where Adam gets his detailed information? I wonder if a mediot would consider him a team source or a league source or an internet source...with specific knowledge of a wide variety of deals...

 

[upstater1]

Wow, any of you defending Bauer need to read Reiss's latest at ESPN Boston. Apparently, this gasbag isn't giving his client proper representation. He has NO CLUE about the ins and outs of negotiations. How are the Patriots supposed to negotiate with a clueless agent? It's Mankins' own damn fault that he's represented by a moron. Read this:

Logan Mankins update. Belichick helped clear up a housekeeping-type issue with regard to offensive lineman Logan Mankins. Sunday is reportedly the deadline for teams to send a holdout player a letter informing him of their right to place him on the roster-exempt list, and Mankins’ agent Frank Bauer told the Boston Globe over the weekend: “We haven’t got it yet, but it’ll come. … I would expect them to do everything nasty they can.” Yet since Mankins is not under contract, the Patriots have no cause to send the letter and this reported deadline is not a factor when it comes to the team’s dealings with Mankins.

 

[Miguel]

Yup, and there are also deals that get vetted for questions before being inked and officially submitted. A few weeks ago the Colts were rumored to be testing Manning deal structures with the management council to determine in advance their strategic options. Particularly when agents and FO's are toying with potential ends around restrictive rules they will pre submit a deal to avoid the problem of agreeing to something that won't fly..

I am of the opinion that someone in the Patriots front office was/is Breer's source. It is just my opinion.

Don't you ever wonder where Adam gets his detailed information?

No, Adam has made it rather clear several times how he gets his information. He knows someone with access to the cap information.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow, any of you defending Bauer need to read Reiss's latest at ESPN Boston. Apparently, this gasbag isn't giving his client proper representation. He has NO CLUE about the ins and outs of negotiations. How are the Patriots supposed to negotiate with a clueless agent? It's Mankins' own damn fault that he's represented by a moron. Read this:

Take it up with the Chargers:

They've sent out letters telling the two disgruntled offensive starters that they'll be placed on the roster exempt list if they don't sign their respective one-year tenders by Aug. 20, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

The designation makes a player ineligible to play for three games after signing the tender, and the Chargers took this approach with tight end Antonio Gates to get him to report in 2005 when he was holding out.

Chargers send letters to Vincent Jackson, Marcus McNeill | National Football Post

 

[upstater1]

Take it up with the Chargers:

Chargers send letters to Vincent Jackson, Marcus McNeill | National Football Post

Is this relevant? The agent says the Patriots will do everything nasty that they can, while Belichick is saying Mankins isn't under contract so they don't need to do anything? Clearly, there's a disconnect here with the agent who doesn't seem to know the rules. The Patriots don't need to do anything with Mankins.