Pats checking out RB Unga

[Kontradiction]

I don't how attending a workout for the only guy in the supplemental draft becomes a unique thing that proves a philosophical shift. I'd think an actual acquisition might be required.

It indicates an interest in a philosophical shift when the bodies might not have been there. Another example would be the lack of LB's drafted in '09 and the two drafted this year. Just because we didn't draft guys in '09 doesn't mean that the coaching staff was fine with the LB corps. It just indicates that the bodies weren't there when we were up and that there was higher value at other positions.

My point is that we moved away from using a FB in anything but short yardage. We used BJGE there at times, we used Connolly there at times. I don't think we will keep a FB only on the roster as long as we only use them in short yardage.

And I don't see why we did that. BJGE was not an effective fullback and is looking at extreme vulnerability when it comes to his ability to make the team this year. Connolly was apparently not dependable enough to be used at times in which we needed to blow open a hole between the A or B gaps. There's a reason why most offensive linemen don't make good fullbacks, and it's because of their size. Not only are they able to hit the hole at a pace which requires being fleet of foot, but their bodies are often too big to blow through the hole and immediately get low enough to gain any sort of leverage on the guy they are blocking. If linemen were such effective fullbacks in short yardage situations, you would see every team in the league using back-up linemen as fullbacks.

Perhaps it could be that you think our running and blocking scheme is different in that it allows us to use guys like Connolly to successful results where other teams cannot? If so, please explain why our scheme is different than other teams in that it would make using a lineman more successful in our running game.

If your desricption is the problem a FB wouldn't solve ' opposing defenders swarm the backfield as our runners were receiving the handoff.'
I think the guys we put in there did just fine as lead blockers.

Sure it would have. Having a guy in the backfield to block those oncoming defenders vs. not having a guy in the backfield and running out of the singleback formation would = one or more less defenders on your runner as he receives the handoff.

The 4th and 2 in Indy was BB putting confidence in Brady and it worked if Faulk didnt bobble OR if the spot were correct after he bobbled. Hearh Evas wouldn't have changed that call.

I'm not saying that Heath Evans in particular would have. But have a capable body in at FB would have produced a run right up the gut, smashmouth style. Sure, he put confidence in Brady. What he also did was put zero confidence in the short, or power running game. This very notion goes against your opinion that the big bodies back there did "just fine". Back when this team had a fullback to complement our running backs, this team would have ran it up the gut everytime in that situation. Just take a look at the 2004 team. No way do they throw on that down and distance.

Not to mention even though they are among the worst teams in the league in overall run defense the Colts are actually good in short yardage because their quick shoot the gap scheme can disrupt those plays.

This doesn't really help your argument here. A true FB would have been able to clear that gap out more quickly and more efficiently that a guy like Connolly would have. A FB is that team's worst enemy on 3rd or 4th and short.

 

[Pewsterbaby]

Man, that Kontradiction sho knows how to break it all down for me. Afterwards, I feel so satisfied... i just kick back in my computer chair and havta smoke me a cigarette!

Oooo-wheeee! Oh baby, that hit the spot. I got me some Pats analysis like none other.

Konta darlin', "Nobody does it better. Though sometimes I wish someone would. Nobody does it half as good as you. Baby you're the best. Why'd you have to be so good?"
-Carly Simon

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm not saying that Heath Evans in particular would have. But have a capable body in at FB would have produced a run right up the gut, smashmouth style. Sure, he put confidence in Brady. What he also did was put zero confidence in the short, or power running game. This very notion goes against your opinion that the big bodies back there did "just fine". Back when this team had a fullback to complement our running backs, this team would have ran it up the gut everytime in that situation. Just take a look at the 2004 team. No way do they throw on that down and distance.

The 2004 team also had an in his prime Corey Dillon. I think that Dillon had more to do with the success of the run game than the fullback.

The Pats fullbacks in the 2003/2004 seasons were a declining Larry Centers in the twilight of his career and Patrick Pass respectively.

Coincidentally enough the year the Pats released Dillon, they picked up Neal. I would argue that the decline of the Pats run game started when we lost Dillon, not necessarily since we lost Neal (who came afterwards).
Patriots release RB Corey Dillon; Re-sign FB Heath Evans and G Billy Yates

I think the Pats just need a genuine power RB, which is why I would have liked to draft Shonn Greene, but that boat has sailed. So let's catch the next Bus! I feel a Hunga for the Unga! Come on down to Foxboro, young man!

 

[RayClay]

If that tape is representative, I can't see what he'll do in the NFL. Big back that doesn't break tackles. None of those open field runs would get past the line in the NFL IMO.

 

[woolster22]

Lots of east west upright running in that clip. Didn't see much to get impressed over...

 

[italia44]

Man, that Kontradiction sho knows how to break it all down for me. Afterwards, I feel so satisfied... i just kick back in my computer chair and havta smoke me a cigarette!

Oooo-wheeee! Oh baby, that hit the spot. I got me some Pats analysis like none other.

Konta darlin', "Nobody does it better. Though sometimes I wish someone would. Nobody does it half as good as you. Baby you're the best. Why'd you have to be so good?"
-Carly Simon

errr...Adam Lambert...is that you?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Obviously he's not Shonn Greene. He's a different player. The question the Pats have to ask themselves is, would he improve the roster. Compared to our current RBs, would he at least crack the top 5? I don't see our RBs as any more than a collection of AVERAGE players, and none of them is a true power back. So I'd have to think that yes, a new RB who could run hard and with power between the tackles could crack the lineup.

Draft position really doesn't matter too much for the success of running backs. Look at Ryan Grant who went undrafted and is now undeniably a top RB in the NFL and the Packers' starter. And we're not even necessarily needing a Ryan Grant, we need a guy who would be better than one of the JAGS we currently have at RB.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Obviously he's not Shonn Greene. He's a different player. The question the Pats have to ask themselves is, would he improve the roster. Compared to our current RBs, would he at least crack the top 5? I don't see our RBs as any more than a collection of AVERAGE players, and none of them is a true power back. So I'd have to think that yes, a new RB who could run hard and with power between the tackles could crack the lineup.

... we need a guy who would be better than one of the JAGS we currently have at RB.

I think you've nailed it. Pats have a group of avg RBs. If that group can be improved by the addition of a different style and capability runner, then BB will explore the possibility. Whether Unga is the guy and what price (draft pick) BB assigns if any remains to be seen. Me, I'd like to see a strong short yardage option added to the team.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Don't worry bout him. He got his superbowl ring with the Saints.

I'm happy for him but I was thinking more about the role Heath played here rather than Heath himself. My bad though, I wasn't very clear about what I meant.

Anyway for that reason, I like that BB's checking out Unga.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

It indicates an interest in a philosophical shift when the bodies might not have been there. Another example would be the lack of LB's drafted in '09 and the two drafted this year. Just because we didn't draft guys in '09 doesn't mean that the coaching staff was fine with the LB corps. It just indicates that the bodies weren't there when we were up and that there was higher value at other positions.



And I don't see why we did that. BJGE was not an effective fullback and is looking at extreme vulnerability when it comes to his ability to make the team this year. Connolly was apparently not dependable enough to be used at times in which we needed to blow open a hole between the A or B gaps. There's a reason why most offensive linemen don't make good fullbacks, and it's because of their size. Not only are they able to hit the hole at a pace which requires being fleet of foot, but their bodies are often too big to blow through the hole and immediately get low enough to gain any sort of leverage on the guy they are blocking. If linemen were such effective fullbacks in short yardage situations, you would see every team in the league using back-up linemen as fullbacks.

Perhaps it could be that you think our running and blocking scheme is different in that it allows us to use guys like Connolly to successful results where other teams cannot? If so, please explain why our scheme is different than other teams in that it would make using a lineman more successful in our running game.



Sure it would have. Having a guy in the backfield to block those oncoming defenders vs. not having a guy in the backfield and running out of the singleback formation would = one or more less defenders on your runner as he receives the handoff.



I'm not saying that Heath Evans in particular would have. But have a capable body in at FB would have produced a run right up the gut, smashmouth style. Sure, he put confidence in Brady. What he also did was put zero confidence in the short, or power running game. This very notion goes against your opinion that the big bodies back there did "just fine". Back when this team had a fullback to complement our running backs, this team would have ran it up the gut everytime in that situation. Just take a look at the 2004 team. No way do they throw on that down and distance.



This doesn't really help your argument here. A true FB would have been able to clear that gap out more quickly and more efficiently that a guy like Connolly would have. A FB is that team's worst enemy on 3rd or 4th and short.

The bolded! We haven't had that since '2-8' was in his prime and as VC said, our RB's have been pretty average. If BB finds us a banger we'll be some very happy fans:singing:

 

[Triumph]

I miss Heath Evans.

You might be on to something with the lack of a FB hurting the run game. The Pats had a very respectable 2008 running the football which was Evans last season. Now, NE made an effort to run the ball more because Cassel was still getting acclimated to being a starter. With Brady, NE passes to get the lead and runs to win.

Its hard to tell how much losing Fred Taylor for most of the year impacted the 2009 run game. Morris was out too.

 

[woolster22]

I was at the opener against Buffalo last year and loved what I saw from Taylor. There were a few ten yard carries where he was chased down from behind when a few years back they probably would have been TD's, but he was running mean and carrying the pile. He was his same bull-headed self, and clearly upset about the loss of a step (slamming his hand/ball on the ground after going down on the aforementioned carries). If he can give us that for 10+ games this season I have no problems. Maybe some of the intensity will rup off on Maroney (and hopefully he holds onto the damn ball).

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Anybody know the 40 time of Unga????

I found this video of him in highschool.
I know the pro's are not highschool, but I still enjoyed the video.

YouTube - Harvey Unga High School Highlights (Senior Season)

 

[Marqui]

I was at the opener against Buffalo last year and loved what I saw from Taylor. There were a few ten yard carries where he was chased down from behind when a few years back they probably would have been TD's, but he was running mean and carrying the pile. He was his same bull-headed self, and clearly upset about the loss of a step (slamming his hand/ball on the ground after going down on the aforementioned carries). If he can give us that for 10+ games this season I have no problems. Maybe some of the intensity will rup off on Maroney (and hopefully he holds onto the damn ball).

I agree, I still think Taylor has some gas left in the tank. The running game should be fine this year if he can stay healthy.

 

[Kontradiction]

The 2004 team also had an in his prime Corey Dillon. I think that Dillon had more to do with the success of the run game than the fullback.

The Pats fullbacks in the 2003/2004 seasons were a declining Larry Centers in the twilight of his career and Patrick Pass respectively.

Coincidentally enough the year the Pats released Dillon, they picked up Neal. I would argue that the decline of the Pats run game started when we lost Dillon, not necessarily since we lost Neal (who came afterwards).
Patriots release RB Corey Dillon; Re-sign FB Heath Evans and G Billy Yates

I think the Pats just need a genuine power RB, which is why I would have liked to draft Shonn Greene, but that boat has sailed. So let's catch the next Bus! I feel a Hunga for the Unga! Come on down to Foxboro, young man!

Not to be argumentative, but you can have a smashmouth running game without having a Dillon type of smashmouth back. There are plenty of teams in the league that are examples of this fact. But I do agree with you that the Pats running game needs a Dillon type of back. Let's hope Taylor can stay healthy this year.

 

[BPF]

A 6th or 7th is what I would probably spend to bring this guy in. At least w/a RB he would have a chance despite missing OTA's, at least more than any other position. I posted this in draft section: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...928-harvey-unga-enter-supplemental-draft.html

 

[BPF]

In case anyone needs to know, Pats 2011 Draft picks below:

1st Round
1st Round (OAK – Richard Seymour)
2nd Round (CAR – 2010 3rd Round)
2nd Round
3rd Round
4th Round
5th Round
6th Round
6th Round (NO – David Thomas)
7th Round

From what I've read it looks like it's going to take at least a 4th rounder to bring this guy in.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Is he worth the projected third rounder that he would cost?

The Pats at least can be expected to have the benefit of expending a late round pick for him, making making it more akin to a 4th round pick than a high 3rd (i.e. second round talent).

I'd think the Pats would seriously consider giving up a late 3rd round pick for a potential RB of the future... at nearly 5 ypc at BYU he seems like he's got potential