Reiss: Moss played with separated shoulder

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

You're absolutely right The Dynasty. It doesn't compare to the NFL.

I'm not blaming anything on anything. I said I understood how debilitating a shoulder injury was to an elite level sports person. You invented from there.

Then what was the point of your post? Just to say that you had a shoulder injury like Moss did and played a high level sport with it? I dont understand.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

Then what was the point of your post? Just to say that you had a shoulder injury like Moss did and played a high level sport with it? I dont understand.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at this post and your preceding ones to be honest with you. You appeared to illustrate you had a grasp of how much a shoulder injury, no matter how minimal or serious would impact a wide receiver's performance. Sadly I was mistaken.

Just effort hey.

 

[The Dynasty]

LOL conversing now equates with effort, good grief. QUOTE]

Conversing shows that you're interested in the game and putting the effort in. Moss didnt show that interest so therefore it can be implied that he wasnt putting in the effort.

Yeah no sh*t, and that includes Moss.
No it wasn't, no matter how much you want to believe it.

Where is your proof that Moss gave 100% effort in that game? I am still waiting. All you have done is tell me that I am wrong, but nothing about how you are right.

I am very open minded, except when all the facts and logic point one way and people try to argue something blatantly absurd and hypocritical.

Still no evidence as to how your view is correct.

Go watch Colts games of past, you can find many games where Marvin Harrison is sitting alone in silence. So he wasn't giving effort then right? what a quitter! You can do the same for every receiver or just about any player to ever play the game. But you choose to see the images only from the microscope that is put on Moss.

Harrison doesnt play for the Colts anymore, but when he did although he wasnt conversing with Manning after every possession he never needed Manning to go over to him and motivate him. It is very rare for a QB to have to motivate his number one WR. I am not associating with conversing with QB's as effort, it shows interest which translates to effort. In almost every game this year Moss was seen conversing with Brady on the sidelines. In the Panthers game there wasnt the usual discussions, it was Moss by himself with Brady motivating him. Would Brady need to motivate Moss if he felt that he was giving it his best effort out there?

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at this post and your preceding ones to be honest with you. You appeared to illustrate you had a grasp of how much a shoulder injury, no matter how minimal or serious would impact a wide receiver's performance. Sadly I was mistaken.

Just effort hey.

I still dont understand what you're saying, are you saying that shoulder injuries can be played through, and that this particular game was a lack of effort? Then I agree with you that it was due to a lack of effort (not necessarily that shoulder injuries can be played through) and I apologize.

If you are saying that the poor performance is because of the injury, then I ask you to look at all the other games that he played in after the Denver game and did he have any poor games or do anything that would cause his effort to come into question?

 

[emoney_33]

Conversing shows that you're interested in the game and putting the effort in. Moss didnt show that interest so therefore it can be implied that he wasnt putting in the effort.

Umm what world do you live in? Where do you get to decide that you have to converse with the QB in order to be putting in effort lol What kind of statement is this.

Where is your proof that Moss gave 100% effort in that game? I am still waiting. All you have done is tell me that I am wrong, but nothing about how you are right.

Again what world do you live in where you can ACCUSE someone of something and then have the burden of proof be on the defendant? The burden of proof is on YOU. All the facts have been laid out for you and if you are too lazy to find them, that's not my problem.

Still no evidence as to how your view is correct.

Harrison doesnt play for the Colts anymore, but when he did although he wasnt conversing with Manning after every possession he never needed Manning to go over to him and motivate him.

So you watched every single Colts game with your eyes fixated on the sidelines and thus no how many times if ever that Manning talked to Harrison on the sideline? Oh and I suppose Troy Brown had a penchant for quitting too, since he stated that is the type of person Brady is and he has done that the whole time. He used to do the same "motivation" talking on the sideline to Brow and everyone else too. But yeah it only matters when it's Moss and by golly that just proves you right!

It is very rare for a QB to have to motivate his number one WR.

It's not rare for Brady to try to motivate everyone on his team, so either they are all quitters or that's just a part of sports. Have you ever played a sport btw?

I am not associating with conversing with QB's as effort, it shows interest which translates to effort.

While talking to the QB might show interest, it's a logical fallacy to assume the opposite. A->B DOES not imply B->A. Have you ever taken a basic logic course?

In almost every game this year Moss was seen conversing with Brady on the sidelines.

That's a lie.

In the Panthers game there wasnt the usual discussions, it was Moss by himself with Brady motivating him.

There wasn't a lot of differences aside from what the network wanted to show to you. Do you understand there is a delay between the game actually playing and them deciding what they want you to see on TV, or do you believe it's instantaneously live?

Would Brady need to motivate Moss if he felt that he was giving it his best effort out there?

Why don't you say the same thing about Troy Brown, and every other receiver to ever play with Brady...

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

I still dont understand what you're saying, are you saying that shoulder injuries can be played through, and that this particular game was a lack of effort? Then I agree with you that it was due to a lack of effort (not necessarily that shoulder injuries can be played through) and I apologize.

If you are saying that the poor performance is because of the injury, then I ask you to look at all the other games that he played in after the Denver game and did he have any poor games or do anything that would cause his effort to come into question?

Well The Dynasty from my understanding a separated shoulder is an aggravation to the AC joint, normally from a traumatic origin. I realize that there are different levels of injury, but in all circumstances, the resultant swelling makes it rather painful given that it affects your humerus, clavicle and scapula.

Now put yourself in the position of a wide receiver. You catch balls thrown to you with your hands. Corners smash your upper body and you generally land with your torso and upper body on hard surfaces. To extend your arms either horizontally or vertically to catch a ball, you directly recruit AC joint related body parts.

To you it looks like a lack of effort, to me it looks like a problem. Given we've seen what Randy Moss is capable of, especially over 2007/2008 does it not seem strange to you that a VERTICAL RECEIVER hardly contested vertical balls and stayed away from physical contact with corners?

The one issue I have here is that come game day, if you're on the field you're fit.. even if you are injured.

 

[The Dynasty]

Umm what world do you live in? Where do you get to decide that you have to converse with the QB in order to be putting in effort lol What kind of statement is this.

I am not going to respond to every sentence you wrote again, because it just isnt worth it.

I never said that conversing with the QB translates putting in effort, I said that it translates to interest with is associated with effort. Moss was disinterested that game, anyone that is disinterested in something is not going to give their best effort.

We both had different views on the game. You said that he just had a bad game and it didnt have anything to do with effort, I said that he had a bad game and it had something to do with his lack of effort. We both are defending our opinion and I have given examples of plays, Moss on the sidelines, quotes from players that actually played in the game and covered Moss and expert analysis to support my claim. You on the other hand have just stated your opinion and Jaws and Hodges expert analysis. Every analyst has their own opinion so you have a right to believe with what they had to say, but you havent had any more evidence besides those 2 peoples opinions. Why was Moss all by himself on the sidelines?, they werent getting blown out or anything.

Brady is a motivator, that is what he does as the leader of the offense. There is a difference between motivating someone to step up and make a big play, which Brady did to Brown as you eluded to and simply motivating someone to run crisp routes and put an effort in on the field. Its a different type of motivating when you are talking to a teammate away from the rest of the offense with his head down.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

Well The Dynasty from my understanding a separated shoulder is an aggravation to the AC joint, normally from a traumatic origin. I realize that there are different levels of injury, but in all circumstances, the resultant swelling makes it rather painful given that it affects your humerus, clavicle and scapula.

Now put yourself in the position of a wide receiver. You catch balls thrown to you with your hands. Corners smash your upper body and you generally land with your torso and upper body on hard surfaces. To extend your arms either horizontally or vertically to catch a ball, you directly recruit AC joint related body parts.

To you it looks like a lack of effort, to me it looks like a problem. Given we've seen what Randy Moss is capable of, especially over 2007/2008 does it not seem strange to you that a VERTICAL RECEIVER hardly contested vertical balls and stayed away from physical contact with corners?

The one issue I have here is that come game day, if you're on the field you're fit.. even if you are injured.

Look at the numbers that Moss had after the Denver game and see how they compared to the Carolina game. I am not ignoring the fact that Moss played with a separated shoulder I know it is difficult to do and I give him all the credit in the world for doing so. But if you have success in all games except one, then that game can be put into question that something might have been up.

Tenn. 8 catches 129 yards 3 TDs
@ TB 5 catches 69 yards
Miami 6 catches 147 yards 1 TD
@ Indy 9 catches 179 yards 2 TDs
Jets 5 catches 34 yards 1 TD
@ NO 5 catches 34 yards
@ Miami 2 catches 66 yards 1 TD
Carolina 1 catch 16 yards****
@ Buffalo 5 catches 70 yards 1 TD
Jacksonville 4 catches 45 yards 3 TDs
@ Houston 5 catches 75 yards
Ravens 5 catches 48 yards

That Carolina game really stands out. If the shoulder was really an issue you think it would have effected him in other games besides just 1 that happened 7 weeks after the injury originally happened.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

Look at the numbers that Moss had after the Denver game and see how they compared to the Carolina game. I am not ignoring the fact that Moss played with a separated shoulder I know it is difficult to do and I give him all the credit in the world for doing so. But if you have success in all games except one, then that game can be put into question that something might have been up.

Tenn. 8 catches 129 yards 3 TDs
@ TB 5 catches 69 yards
Miami 6 catches 147 yards 1 TD
@ Indy 9 catches 179 yards 2 TDs
Jets 5 catches 34 yards 1 TD
@ NO 5 catches 34 yards
@ Miami 2 catches 66 yards 1 TD
Carolina 1 catch 16 yards****
@ Buffalo 5 catches 70 yards 1 TD
Jacksonville 4 catches 45 yards 3 TDs
@ Houston 5 catches 75 yards
Ravens 5 catches 48 yards

That Carolina game really stands out. If the shoulder was really an issue you think it would have effected him in other games besides just 1 that happened 7 weeks after the injury originally happened.

You realize you aren't helping your "effort" point? All you're really doing by illustrating the Carolina game is that good players can have bad days.

What the receiver statistics for the team show me is how good Moss and Welker are and how bloody dependent we have become on them.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

You realize you aren't helping your "effort" point? All you're really doing by illustrating the Carolina game is that good players can have bad days.

What the receiver statistics for the team show me is how good Moss and Welker are and how bloody dependent we have become on them.

Your point was that his bad game should be blamed on his shoulder injury, those stats clearly illustrate that that game cannot be blamed on his shoulder injury.

My "effort" point is in the other argument I am in on this thread. What evidence do you have that he gave 100% effort in that game?

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

Your point was that his bad game should be blamed on his shoulder injury, those stats clearly illustrate that that game cannot be blamed on his shoulder injury.

My "effort" point is in the other argument I am in on this thread. What evidence do you have that he gave 100% effort in that game?

I challenge you to quote where I said that.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

You realize you aren't helping your "effort" point? All you're really doing by illustrating the Carolina game is that good players can have bad days.

What the receiver statistics for the team show me is how good Moss and Welker are and how bloody dependent we have become on them.

And yes I understand WR's have bad days but the great WRs that are in the same class as Moss dont have bad days like Moss had.

Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Sidney Rice, Reggie Wayne. Look at their game logs from this season, they never had a game as poor as 1 catch for 16 yards. The point is even with a bad game players like Moss and those guys can do better than 1 catch for 16 yards, if you have that kind of talent and cant manage more than a catch then something should be questioned and in Moss' case it was his effort.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

I challenge you to quote where I said that.

Well The Dynasty from my understanding a separated shoulder is an aggravation to the AC joint, normally from a traumatic origin. I realize that there are different levels of injury, but in all circumstances, the resultant swelling makes it rather painful given that it affects your humerus, clavicle and scapula.

Now put yourself in the position of a wide receiver. You catch balls thrown to you with your hands. Corners smash your upper body and you generally land with your torso and upper body on hard surfaces. To extend your arms either horizontally or vertically to catch a ball, you directly recruit AC joint related body parts.

To you it looks like a lack of effort, to me it looks like a problem. Given we've seen what Randy Moss is capable of, especially over 2007/2008 does it not seem strange to you that a VERTICAL RECEIVER hardly contested vertical balls and stayed away from physical contact with corners?

The one issue I have here is that come game day, if you're on the field you're fit.. even if you are injured.

You are saying that his play was effected because of an injury.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

And yes I understand WR's have bad days but the great WRs that are in the same class as Moss dont have bad days like Moss had.

Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Sidney Rice, Reggie Wayne. Look at their game logs from this season, they never had a game as poor as 1 catch for 16 yards. The point is even with a bad game players like Moss and those guys can do better than 1 catch for 16 yards, if you have that kind of talent and cant manage more than a catch then something should be questioned and in Moss' case it was his effort.

That's true and I appreciate your standpoint, but you've isolated 1 game where Moss' receiving production was poor. Given I appreciate his talent and you're questioning his effort, I'm simply saying it's possible to have bad days. God knows they happen to everyone.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

You are saying that his play was effected because of an injury.

That's not a good enough response The Dynasty.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

That's true and I appreciate your standpoint, but you've isolated 1 game where Moss' receiving production was poor. Given I appreciate his talent and you're questioning his effort, I'm simply saying it's possible to have bad days. God knows they happen to everyone.

Bad days do happen to everyone, but when along with poor play and shying away from teammates on the sidelines and poor running of routes those are signs of a lack of effort.

When someone is having a bad day and they screw something up at work, obviously their boss isnt going to say "its ok, he just had a bad day", especially when not giving effort has been a thing that has came up in the past. They are going to question his effort. It could quite possibly be the case that the worker had a bad day and same thing with Moss, if the worker fully explains the situation but with Moss no one has came out and completely addressed the situation, nor will anyone ever do that, so everyone is entitled to believe what they really think happened.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

That's not a good enough response The Dynasty.

I referenced the whole quote. How is that quote not saying his poor game had something to do with injury when you talked about how difficult it is to play with a separated shoulder.

 

[emoney_33]

I never said that conversing with the QB translates putting in effort, I said that it translates to interest with is associated with effort. Moss was disinterested that game, anyone that is disinterested in something is not going to give their best effort.

Again I'll just stop here because you can't grasp very basic logic. A->B does not imply !A->!B. Do you understand that?

If conversation (A) proved interest (B) that does not imply that lacking conversation (!A) proved disinterest (!B).

It's quite funny that you keep harping on conversation on the sideline from 1 or 2 TV clips in this argument. But I'm done until you can start using basic principles of logic in your argument.

As for your persistent request of facts... do you not understand YOU are the accuser? You can't prove your allegations because you have no leg to stand on.

I have given the facts all over this forum. Jaws and Hoge (your facts) said he gave effort all game (conceding at most 1 play, which I've already given facts against). BB, Brady, Faulk have all continued to defend him. Troy Brown came out and said Brady always tried to motivate everyone, even the same for Troy when he was on the team. Yes Troy said exactly that Brady has come up to him and others on the sideline to motivate, it's Tom's personality. Another fact against your "opinion". Fact is that Moss has played fantastic. Fact is you can't put up the numbers Moss puts up while not consistently giving effort. If you believe that fact, then it would logically follow that it is MORE likely that a bad game is NOT due to effort. Champ bailey is quoted as saying Moss is very deceptive and lulls DBs in. (Yet Gamble is a pro and knows when Moss isn't trying). Moss NEVER looks like he's trying even when he's running past DBs. BB continues (and continued to in the Carolina game) to play Moss on a huge percentage of snaps on offense (just about all of them). Another fact is no receiver in the league goes without bad games. Another fact is no receiver in the league is always talking to his QB on the sideline. Another fact is Moss was blocking. ANother fact is clearly on the TV feed you can see Moss make a nice block to spring Welker. Fact is we know he had at some point in the season at least a hurt back and separated shoulder.

There are an ocean's worth of facts that all point to Moss having a bad day for many other reasons NOT related to effort. But you just keep on harping on these stupid assertions that all stem from 1-2 shots of the sideline where he is not 'conversing' with his QB (LOL). 1 shot from the sideline with Brady talking to him (as he does for all his players from time to time especially when the game is close/tight, and he's always been this way). 4 unsuccessful plays that were thrown his way that the TV feed caught.

You have NOTHING but media-driven reputation and bias to go on. End of story. Next season will be the 3rd year in a row his teammates vote him captain.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Source: Moss Played with Separated Shoulder

And yes I understand WR's have bad days but the great WRs that are in the same class as Moss dont have bad days like Moss had.

Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Sidney Rice, Reggie Wayne. Look at their game logs from this season, they never had a game as poor as 1 catch for 16 yards. The point is even with a bad game players like Moss and those guys can do better than 1 catch for 16 yards, if you have that kind of talent and cant manage more than a catch then something should be questioned and in Moss' case it was his effort.

This kind of stuff drives me nuts. Are you that biased or is just laziness?

Fitzgerald: @SF 2 receptions, 22 yards
Rice: @CLE 2 receptions, 17 yards
Wayne: @HOU 3 receptions, 19 yards


Seriously, do some research and then maybe you'll save the rest of us from having to read some made up nonsense.

 

[ausbacker]

Bad days do happen to everyone, but when along with poor play and shying away from teammates on the sidelines and poor running of routes those are signs of a lack of effort.

When someone is having a bad day and they screw something up at work, obviously their boss isnt going to say "its ok, he just had a bad day", especially when not giving effort has been a thing that has came up in the past. They are going to question his effort. It could quite possibly be the case that the worker had a bad day and same thing with Moss, if the worker fully explains the situation but with Moss no one has came out and completely addressed the situation, nor will anyone ever do that, so everyone is entitled to believe what they really think happened.

I agree with a fair bit of this post, however how do you explain his continued efforts to block for players during the game?

What you are now talking about is the manner in which personalities respond to poor or average performances, not effort based merit. One person may get angry and yell obscenities, the other become an introvert and exhibit loner characteristics.

I referenced the whole quote. How is that quote not saying his poor game had something to do with injury when you talked about how difficult it is to play with a separated shoulder.

Indeed you did reference the entire quote. The entire quote which demonstrates the difficult and problematic nature in which shoulder injuries can impinge performance. All I did was outline this, not state it as fact that Moss had a poor game because of it.

You on the other hand have stated multiple times you believe it to be an effort issue. The reality is I don't know if it's Moss' shoulder, if it's a lack of effort or if he simply had a bad day. I'm not foolish enough to state it's one or the other, but probably a combination of a number of factors.