Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB (from 1/31/2010)

[Sicilian]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I don't feel like going through 20 pages of Manning/Brady crap, so I apologize if this sentiment has been said already.

The debate of who is/was the better QB is something I think will need to be discussed once both their careers are over. Both have too much footbally left to play to decide now, much like you wouldn't call the outcome of a tie game before the clock hits zero.

 

[stevedogc]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

has anyone taken into account that this is the first post season performance of Mannings that you can described as being great? This is the 10th season that that Manning has taken the Colts to the post season. And in almost every single season, Manning has underperformed or has been the main reason for the Colts losing the game:

1999: 19 of 42 for 227 yards 0 tds 0 ints, Colts score 16 points at home
2000: 17 of 32 for 194 yards 1 td 0 ints, Colts score 17 points to Miami
2002: 14 of 31 for 137 yards 0 tds 2 ints, Colts score 0 points in loss to Jets
2003: 44 of 56 for 681 yards 8 tds 0 ints in two winds against Den & KC, then goes 23 of 47
for 237 yards 1 td 4 ints in loss against the Pats, scoring only 14 points
2004: Again, beats up on Denver in 1st round, gets crushed by Pats next round going 27 of
42 for 238 yards 0 td 1 int in loss against Pats scoring only 3 points
2005: 22 of 38 for 290 yards 1 td 0 int, Colts score 18 points at home
2006: Colts win Superbowl while Manning throws 3 tds and 7 ints in 4 games
2007: 33 of 48 for 402 yards 3 tds 2 ints, score 24 points at home
2008: 25 of 42 for 310 yards 1 td 0 ints, score 17 in loss to SD

In 99, 02, 03 & 04 Manning played some of his worst football games in his career.
In 00, 05 & 08 he had good games. But he did play well enough to win. And certainly
played below is regular season average.
In 06 he won the superbowl while having probably one of the worst statistical lines for a QB who won a SB
in 07, 3 tds and 402 yards! Great. 2 ints, not great.

Other facts, using QB rating to judge individual game performnances, 3 out of Mannings 5 worst statistical games ever were playoff games.

In every single playoff loss the Colts have had under Manning, the Colts scored less points in the loss then they averaged in the regular season of the same year.

As for Brady always having great defense, Until this year Manning has gone into the playoff 4 times with defenses that ranked in the top 7 in the NFL during the regular season. The Colts are 0-4 in those games. Mannings stats 94 of 159 for 1139 yards 5 td 4 ints 81.2 rating. Colts averaged under 15 points in those 4 losses.

Now before anyone gets their panties all in a bunch I feel Manning is a great QB and in fact is one of the best ever. And I do feel that Brady has had his fair share of poor playoff games, especially as of late. But Brady has still performed more consistantly and more clutch then Manning in terms of big games. Manning is changing that so far this off season, but I still put Brady ahead.

 

[D-Money]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Manning right now is the better QB even with Tom's 3 rings.I dont know if Tom has lost that competitive fire but this season was very ho hum.Maybe it was the fact that he was coming back from his injury.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Manning right now is the better QB even with Tom's 3 rings.I dont know if Tom has lost that competitive fire but this season was very ho hum.Maybe it was the fact that he was coming back from his injury.

Let Manning come off a big knee surgery, age Reggie Wayne (Randy Moss) by a few more years, take away Dallas Clark (Wes Welker) for three games, and replace Garcon and Collie with Aiken and a rookie QB converted to WR and I don't think Manning's season would have looked that much better than Brady's. That's not even accounting for having to gel with a new OC.

Again, I'm not going to say who's better until I see FINAL career accomplishments. But comparing Brady to Manning for THIS year in a vacuum is apples and oranges.

 

[D-Money]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hey silician, our offensive scheme was a joke this year.Seemed like everything ran through Wes Welker and it has been.I am surprise the guy never got injured since he is utilized so much.Moss was a non-factor all season.The OC should have been fired!

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I already went over what Brady did in 03. I'm not sure what impressed you about the team -- especially the defense -- but in the Super Bowl, that was Brady that won it for New England. Not the running game, and not the defense.

So, in the big games, you can't say Brady had a better team. The Patriots D gave up 29 points in 32 minutes. And Brady saved their bacon. You said the QB strains a bit in such circumstances, but that's exactly what separated Brady and Manning back then. Brady didn't strain. He performed flawlessly, whereas in similar circumstances Manning wet the bed.

I'm not saying Brady isn't great for those wins, I'm saying if Manning has a great game Sunday to win his 2nd ring he'll complete what has been a tremendous season/postseason which includes gutting the league's best defense to erase a double digit deficit. He'll have pretty much done what Brady has in his best playoff year ('04), just 1 less ring and a less impressive record because he played on a few wild card caliber teams early on in his career, similar to the teams Brady has played on recently where his record hasn't been great either. To me, Manning's comeback against us in '06 is on par with Brady's performance against Carolina. The playoff "clutch" factor may not be completely equal with a Colts win Sunday, but would be close enough that Manning's regular season advantage would put him over the top IMO (for now).

This Colts team is flawed in alot of areas, unless their defense steps up on Sunday and holds the Saints down you can't really say it's anything like the defenses Brady had in '03/'04. The only Colts team that was anywhere near that '03/'04 team was their '05 team and I'll give it to you that Manning didn't take that team all the way, but we had a much better team in '07 and Brady didn't light it up in the 2 final games either.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Let Manning come off a big knee surgery, age Reggie Wayne (Randy Moss) by a few more years, take away Dallas Clark (Wes Welker) for three games, and replace Garcon and Collie with Aiken and a rookie QB converted to WR and I don't think Manning's season would have looked that much better than Brady's. That's not even accounting for having to gel with a new OC.

Again, I'm not going to say who's better until I see FINAL career accomplishments. But comparing Brady to Manning for THIS year in a vacuum is apples and oranges.

Brady did not have a year up to his standards, and even so his numbers were really good.

For someone to truly judge Brady, they should have a look at what he did when Reche Caldwell was his #1 receiver. Brady was the best QB in football in 2006, and his performance had the critics' eyes popping out of their heads. How a guy took street free agents and made them into a potent offense was incredible. They should have won that AFCCG and it would have been a credit to Brady. It would be interesting to see Manning try to compete with Caldwell as his number 1 receiver. I'm sure he'd do a creditable job, but would it have been as good as Brady 2006? You needed a cool customer back there as Merriman and Phillips came flying at you as you were looking for Reche to break free. I bet Peyton would've been doing a riverdance impression under the circumstances.

 

[condon84]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Here's a question for you guys:

If the Patriots didn't have Brady this past decade, would we still be a contending team? Would we have won a SB?

Same situation with the Colts, how would they have done?

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I'm not saying Brady isn't great for those wins, I'm saying if Manning has a great game Sunday to win his 2nd ring he'll complete what has been a tremendous season/postseason which includes gutting the league's best defense to erase a double digit deficit. He'll have pretty much done what Brady has in his best playoff year ('04), just 1 less ring and a less impressive record because he played on a few wild card caliber teams early on in his career, similar to the teams Brady has played on recently where his record hasn't been great either. To me, Manning's comeback against us in '06 is on par with Brady's performance against Carolina. The playoff "clutch" factor may not be completely equal with a Colts win Sunday, but would be close enough that Manning's regular season advantage would put him over the top IMO (for now).

This Colts team is flawed in alot of areas, unless their defense steps up on Sunday and holds the Saints down you can't really say it's anything like the defenses Brady had in '03/'04. The only Colts team that was anywhere near that '03/'04 team was their '05 team and I'll give it to you that Manning didn't take that team all the way, but we had a much better team in '07 and Brady didn't light it up in the 2 final games either.

We'll just disagree, I guess. I tend to rate the Colts D higher than the Patriots D that faced the Panthers. I also think many of Peyton's playoff wins came in precisely those wild card games against weaker teams, while the Patriots had more formidable competition in the buys. Peyton not only lost to the Patriots those years, but also the Steelers and Chargers. In other words, he lost the big games.

If I could ever really credit what went down in the dome to the Colts, I would perhaps be more in your corner, but I'll never get over that. One bad call is one thing (that happened against the Broncos the previous year). Two bad calls is infuriating (and I've never seen Belichick so angry as he was on the Troy Brown OPI, have you?) but three bad calls makes the whole enterprise totally questionable. That's a totally different game if the Patriots are ahead 14 more points in the second half, no?

I still remember halftime of that game when all the announcers said that there would be a huge stigma on Peyton for that performance (referring to his first half). If the Patriots were up another 14 points, and Peyton followed up his bad first half with a really good second half, the pundits would be emphasizing his first half performance over what he did in the second half.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Here's a question for you guys:

If the Patriots didn't have Brady this past decade, would we still be a contending team? Would we have won a SB?

Same situation with the Colts, how would they have done?

I don't think we would have won any Super Bowls without Brady. Only the first one would be a consideration. Could Bledsoe have won that first Super Bowl? I think he was capable but the chances would have been slimmer. By the time of the second and third Super Bowl, Brady was the biggest force in football, and he was the ultimate difference.

As for the Colts, I barely credit them for 2006 so...

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hey silician, our offensive scheme was a joke this year.Seemed like everything ran through Wes Welker and it has been.I am surprise the guy never got injured since he is utilized so much.Moss was a non-factor all season.The OC should have been fired!

How can you look at Randy Moss's production and say he was a non-factor this year?

 

[upstater1]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

In 2005, Big Ben beat the 1/2/3 seed on the road. That's more impressive than beating two very marginal 9-7 teams who have rookie and second year QB's.

Careful, I've been taken to task for questioning the quality of those 9-7 teams (one of which had two teams lay down and quit the final two weeks of the season).

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

We'll just disagree, I guess. I tend to rate the Colts D higher than the Patriots D that faced the Panthers. I also think many of Peyton's playoff wins came in precisely those wild card games against weaker teams, while the Patriots had more formidable competition in the buys. Peyton not only lost to the Patriots those years, but also the Steelers and Chargers. In other words, he lost the big games.

If I could ever really credit what went down in the dome to the Colts, I would perhaps be more in your corner, but I'll never get over that. One bad call is one thing (that happened against the Broncos the previous year). Two bad calls is infuriating (and I've never seen Belichick so angry as he was on the Troy Brown OPI, have you?) but three bad calls makes the whole enterprise totally questionable. That's a totally different game if the Patriots are ahead 14 more points in the second half, no?

I still remember halftime of that game when all the announcers said that there would be a huge stigma on Peyton for that performance (referring to his first half). If the Patriots were up another 14 points, and Peyton followed up his bad first half with a really good second half, the pundits would be emphasizing his first half performance over what he did in the second half.

Well, with Spygate looming over our shoulders, I don't think we're in any position to make excuses like that. We needed 1 first down to seal that game and didn't do it at the end. Peyton made the plays he had to in that 2nd half.

You could be right about this years Colts defense if they do well Sunday, because they've been great in the first 2 games. But it's still one game to go there. The '03 defense was dominant up until that super bowl.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hey silician, our offensive scheme was a joke this year.Seemed like everything ran through Wes Welker and it has been.I am surprise the guy never got injured since he is utilized so much.Moss was a non-factor all season.The OC should have been fired!

We disagree on the level of severity, but you're right. And that just proves my point. Transitioning to a new OC is just one more challenge that Brady had to overcome this year. Manning didn't have nearly that kind of adversity.

And I do think Brady keyed in on Moss and Welker too much, but some of that was due to his lack of options. Part of that was scheme, part of that was talent, but it's still a challenge Brady has to contend with. That's why comparing the two for this year is difficult.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Here's a question for you guys:

If the Patriots didn't have Brady this past decade, would we still be a contending team? Would we have won a SB?

Same situation with the Colts, how would they have done?

I doubt either team would have any rings. Every single SB team for both franchises required elite level QB playmaking at certain points, even the 2001 Patriots where some might disagree. But it's impossible to say for certain because there's no way to tell how the other QB's would do with these teams.

 

[oldskool138]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

The '03 defense was dominant up until that super bowl.

The defense was dominant the first half of that game and then gave up points in the second half.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Hey silician, our offensive scheme was a joke this year.Seemed like everything ran through Wes Welker and it has been.I am surprise the guy never got injured since he is utilized so much.Moss was a non-factor all season.The OC should have been fired!

In 2009, Moss had 83 catches/ 1264 yards/ 13 TD's and was a "non factor"?

Where do posters come up with such stupid observations?

Also, it should be expected that this year everything would run through Welker. You had new and young receivers with virtually zero time to work in the offseason.

It's traditionally recognized that three years are required to bring a passing offense to peek efficiency. That's why Polian has always spent top dollar to keep Goober's weapons. Does anyone think Garcon and Collie achieved what they did without hours and hours of offseason work?

Where was garcon in 2008?

If this team had 2002-2007 Brady, the Pats would have been a minimum 14-2 and would have blown out the Colts by three touchdowns.

2010 is the key because we will see if TB makes it fully "back".

 

[oldskool138]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

In 2009, Moss had 83 catches/ 1264 yards/ 13 TD's and was a "non factor"?

Where do posters come up with such stupid observations?

Well, he didn't have much of an impact on the Raven's playoff game or in either of the Jets games he played in. Three of those TD's came against the Titans.

 

[D-Money]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

Dont let the damn stats fool u on Moss!!!He did that pretty much against Tennessee when they sucked and Buffalo.My point is this offense has been a dink and dunk offense lately!They need WRs who can get deep.Moss may have not been 100 percent all year, who knows.All i know is that the playcalling was very predictable

 

[condon84]

Re: Bob Cryin: Manning is the better QB

I don't think we would have won any Super Bowls without Brady. Only the first one would be a consideration. Could Bledsoe have won that first Super Bowl? I think he was capable but the chances would have been slimmer. By the time of the second and third Super Bowl, Brady was the biggest force in football, and he was the ultimate difference.

As for the Colts, I barely credit them for 2006 so...

I think we could have won the first SB with another QB. Brady was the ultimate game-manager that year. Bledsoe managed the game in Pittsburgh and we won. He even made some nice throws.

We also won 11 games in 2008 with a QB that didn't play college football and had no prior starts in the NFL. That's remarkable and illustrates how well this team was operating.

If you look at the Colts, especially in the past couple of years, I don't think they can win more than 5 games without Manning.