Is Brandon Graham too short to be a DE in a 3-4?

[alvinnf]

Valid points, but I think that I disagree on a few things. Towards the strong vs weak end, of course. He was moved around because a superior athlete on any level will be moved around to create coaching problems for the opponent. In the NFL, he won't be a superior athlete.

Towards technique and leverage: I would expect him to. He is a 4th year 1a football player. The question is how well that engrained college technique correlates to the professional game. Further, anyone is going to be more explosive out of the three point that a two point. You already have your explosion step taken in the three point, and your arm is already ****ed to fire into your opponent. The issue is weather or not the two point quickness is adequate at an NFL level.

Towards shoulder technique, and this may be semantics, but a player never attacks both shoulders. They either attack the outside shoulder, post (aka square), or slant across the face of the tackle into the b gap. Not sure which you were going for, but Michigan never delegated posting to it's ends. Few college programs do. They coach ends to retain an outside shoulder to string out the play. They seldom try to force the play inside by posting a hard angle Like they do in a 2 gap 34.

You gotta watch his highlight tape. He definately comes inside and forces the play. His link is in my other post. He seems difficult to cover up and he is effective against the run. I would just wonder if he would be able to stack and shed standing up. That's a place where his height and arm length could get him in trouble. But at the same time he does play with good lean and balance, like J Harrison.

 

[mayoclinic]

TBC was widely regarded as a 3rd round talent who fell because of character concerns.

How is Graham a situational pass rusher when he's so good at setting the edge and tackling ball carriers?

Graham is better than TBC vs the run right now.

I agree Graham is much better than TBC, but it still took TBC a while to adjust to playing OLB. Some would say he's still adjusting. It's just not clear to me whether Graham would project to a 3-down player for us.

 

[mayoclinic]

Agreed. A note towards the lack of OLB data: I've been putting more thought and research this year into the transitive properties for the two positions. I studied some college games of current pros. It's not tape, but for front 7 play it works. I found some factors that correlate well even if the player never takes his hand out of the dirt. It's nothing mind blowing, makes sense if one has played, but it may help to educate others less knowledgable than yourself.

Almost always was evidence of the guy checking a rush and getting laterally in a hurry. This is a standard linebacker move; in fact the basis of most linebacker drills. Drive up, plant, fluidly explode laterally with your hips square, transition into pursuit if needed. Indicative of COD.

There was also evidence of small step squaring. In run defense , 34 OLB's will be reached just after they get their triangle read. They will have one step to get their hips down, grab breastplate, and lock that sumbeech out for their next read. It's a small little step you get before engagement, and most ends get to fight with their feet for outside leverage. Look for guys who can take a small step and get square.

There's also the presence in the screen game. If the end can check the rush, get angular to the play upon recognition. This shows how they play in zone, as shooting a screen post read is very close to coming up in zone.

Man is easy to coach if the player has the hips and explosiveness to run. Simply hand technique stuff and some dirty tricks. Not a difficult eval once you have the physical traits.

Interesting thoughts. I hadn't formalized them the way you have, but some of the things you've mentioned are things I've noted. I've been in impressed with Carlos Dunlap's ability to check the rush and redirect on recognition, for example. That's part of where he reminds me of Willie McGinest.

 

[Charles Barwin]

"It's just not clear to me whether Graham would project to a 3-down player for us."

MayoClinic,

Do you see a good OLB fit for our scheme in this draft? Is JPP that guy?

If not, and the alternative is to go through another season (or more) under-staffed at OLB and pass rush, doesn't it make more sense for BB to draft somebody like Graham or Dunlap and tweak our 3-4 scheme accordingly?

Btw, Dunlap or Graham, who do you like more?

 

[mayoclinic]

"It's just not clear to me whether Graham would project to a 3-down player for us."

MayoClinic,

Do you see a good OLB fit for our scheme in this draft? Is JPP that guy?

If not, and the alternative is to go through another season (or more) under-staffed at OLB and pass rush, doesn't it make more sense for BB to draft somebody like Graham or Dunlap and tweak our 3-4 scheme accordingly?

Btw, Dunlap or Graham, who do you like more?

I've addressed my OLB views in several threads. I divide the position into strongside and weakside. McGinest and Vrabel were strongside guys. Roosie Colvin was a weakside guy - a bit smaller and quicker, not quite as strong against the run, a bit better in coverage, but still able to set the edge and play the run in our 2-gap 3-4.

On the strongside, I like Carlos Dunlap the best. Greg Romeus would have been co-#1 but he stayed in school. Everson Griffen and Jason Pierre-Paul are #2 and #3, in some order. Graham would probably project to strongside OLB (which is what LaMarr Woodley plays for Pittsburgh, with James Harrison playing the weekside), as would Greg Hardy. So to answer your question, I like Dunlap better than Graham, from what I know and have seen right now.

On the weakside, Jason Pierre-Paul and Austen Lane are my two favorite prospects. Pierre-Paul probably has more upside, but Lane seems more agile and to have better body control right now. Those guys are probably big and strong enough to play the strongside as well, but I feel they project better to the weak side. Sergio Kindle, Jerry Hughes and Ricky Sapp also project to the weak side, but I have concerns about those guys' ability to set the edge effectively for us and play the run. I would probably rank Kindle 3rd after Pierre-Paul and Lane.

I'd love to see us get one of each, such as Dunlap or Griffen at the strong side and Pierre-Paul or Lane at the weak side.

 

[patsfan55]

I've addressed my OLB views in several threads. I divide the position into strongside and weakside. McGinest and Vrabel were strongside guys. Roosie Colvin was a weakside guy - a bit smaller and quicker, not quite as strong against the run, a bit better in coverage, but still able to set the edge and play the run in our 2-gap 3-4.

On the strongside, I like Carlos Dunlap the best. Greg Romeus would have been co-#1 but he stayed in school. Everson Griffen and Jason Pierre-Paul are #2 and #3, in some order. Graham would probably project to strongside OLB (which is what LaMarr Woodley plays for Pittsburgh, with James Harrison playing the weekside), as would Greg Hardy. So to answer your question, I like Dunlap better than Graham, from what I know and have seen right now.

On the weakside, Jason Pierre-Paul and Austen Lane are my two favorite prospects. Pierre-Paul probably has more upside, but Lane seems more agile and to have better body control right now. Those guys are probably big and strong enough to play the strongside as well, but I feel they project better to the weak side. Sergio Kindle, Jerry Hughes and Ricky Sapp also project to the weak side, but I have concerns about those guys' ability to set the edge effectively for us and play the run. I would probably rank Kindle 3rd after Pierre-Paul and Lane.

I'd love to see us get one of each, such as Dunlap or Griffen at the strong side and Pierre-Paul or Lane at the weak side.

As always, love the insight MayoC. I was watching some vids of Dunlap and I'll admit he did seem to move a lot like Willie. However, I saw him get sucked in quite a few times. While this happened to Rosie quite a few times, and Vrabel every now and then, this rarely happened to old Willie Mac.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

"It's just not clear to me whether Graham would project to a 3-down player for us."

MayoClinic,

Do you see a good OLB fit for our scheme in this draft? Is JPP that guy?

If not, and the alternative is to go through another season (or more) under-staffed at OLB and pass rush, doesn't it make more sense for BB to draft somebody like Graham or Dunlap and tweak our 3-4 scheme accordingly?

Btw, Dunlap or Graham, who do you like more?

Mayo is chasing top notch DE candidates, the ones who have dominated as edge rushers and are long bodies for clogging throwing lanes. I've been looking more at the kids who are have already been playing similar roles to those they'd be expected to play for NE:

-- Koa Misi (Utah): Go watch their bowl game against Alabama last year, they switched from 3-4 to 4-3 with Misi playing NT, 3-tech, 5-tech, DE, and OLB as he fought double-teams inside, dropped into coverage, rushed the passer from 3-point and 2-point stances, and played the run as a DL and OLB. In short, he was a Mormon Mike Vrabel. He's my #1 OLB prospect, I'd use a mid-second on him.
-- Eric Norwood (South Carolina): He's been playing DE, 4-3 OLB, and MLB for at least three years. He's a stud edge rusher from either 3-point or a 2-point stance, he's pretty good against the run as a DE or an OLB, though he had a horrible bowl game against Connecticut as it appears SC has been teaching their LBs to not use their hands to engage OL, but rather to bend over and let the linemen rape them while the RB scoots upfield. Hopefully he can retrain that bad habit and get back to squaring up against OL and using his hands to stack and shed. He's not a natural in coverage, but I think he can be coached up better then he has been to date. He's slimmed down a little too much, apparently to get quicker as a LB to prepare himself for an NFL career, get him back up to 260 and develop him as a 2-down SILB with the third down on the edge rushing and you've got a Bruschi-like playmaker on the team. He can play reserve OLB/3rd down specialist while you're developing him inside - I've seen him use his hands in years past to engage OL, he was pretty good and can be again. Third round value.
-- Cameron Sheffield (Troy): Played LB and DE for Troy. He had a good Senior Bowl at OLB in the 4-3, he's further along in coverage skills then many of the Defensive Ends coming out of college due to the zone blitz Troy plays. 4th round seems about right at the moment.
-- Brandon Lang (Troy): Played DE for Troy, but did drop into coverage in their zone blitz scheme. Stiffer than Sheffield, he's rated higher as a DE because of his size, but I rate him lower as a 3-4 OLB because he'd be more limited in space. 4-5th rounds.
-- Alex Daniels (Cincinnati): High School LB, converted to RB for Minnesota as a sophomore and was their 2nd leading rusher, transferred to Cincinnati and sat out a year after getting in trouble, was converted to 4-3 DE, his senior year he played 3-4 DE. If you watched the slaughter in the Sugar Bowl you may remember a player wearing #4 running Tebow all around? He had 6 TT, 3 TFL, and 2 sacks in that game. He's a late round candidate.
-- Jason Beauchamp (UNLV): Played OLB in their 3-4 (Adam Seward was an ILB - yes, it had to be said), he had a good Shrine Game and week. Late rounder.
-- Matt Featherston (Texas A&M): The "other" "jack" LB for A&M. Von Miller has the explosive burst in the pass rush, but Featherston was the tough run stuffer on the second line (like hockey, A&M alternated lines, though they would single sub Featherston and Miller based on game needs). Despite not having a strong burst off the edge, he still got pressure on the QB. NE and Pit were reported to be very interested in Miller, when you looked at how A&M used their jacks you could see why since they are used very much like a 3-4 OLB. Featherston may not have the athleticism to make it in the NFL, but he's a decent UDFA flyer to see what he can do in camp.
-- Junior Galette (Stillman): Played SLB and DE at Temple in the MAC before getting in trouble and transferring out. High School LB and FB. Combine invite, so we'll get some idea how athletic he is. For now he's projected as a UDFA.

There are several DE conversion projects in the late round/UDFA ranks whom NE might take a chance on, Frank Zombo (Central Michigan), Dexter Davis (AZ State), Antonio Coleman (Auburn), Justin Cole & Carl Ihenacho (San Jose), Arthur Moats (James Madison), Danny Batten (South Dakota State), Daniel Te'o-Nesheim (Washington), Jan Jorgensen (BYU), Brandon Sharpe (TX Tech), Barry Turner (Nebraska)

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo is chasing top notch DE candidates, the ones who have dominated as edge rushers and are long bodies for clogging throwing lanes. I've been looking more at the kids who are have already been playing similar roles to those they'd be expected to play for NE:

-- Koa Misi (Utah): Go watch their bowl game against Alabama last year, they switched from 3-4 to 4-3 with Misi playing NT, 3-tech, 5-tech, DE, and OLB as he fought double-teams inside, dropped into coverage, rushed the passer from 3-point and 2-point stances, and played the run as a DL and OLB. In short, he was a Mormon Mike Vrabel. He's my #1 OLB prospect, I'd use a mid-second on him.
-- Eric Norwood (South Carolina): He's been playing DE, 4-3 OLB, and MLB for at least three years. He's a stud edge rusher from either 3-point or a 2-point stance, he's pretty good against the run as a DE or an OLB, though he had a horrible bowl game against Connecticut as it appears SC has been teaching their LBs to not use their hands to engage OL, but rather to bend over and let the linemen rape them while the RB scoots upfield. Hopefully he can retrain that bad habit and get back to squaring up against OL and using his hands to stack and shed. He's not a natural in coverage, but I think he can be coached up better then he has been to date. He's slimmed down a little too much, apparently to get quicker as a LB to prepare himself for an NFL career, get him back up to 260 and develop him as a 2-down SILB with the third down on the edge rushing and you've got a Bruschi-like playmaker on the team. He can play reserve OLB/3rd down specialist while you're developing him inside - I've seen him use his hands in years past to engage OL, he was pretty good and can be again. Third round value.
-- Cameron Sheffield (Troy): Played LB and DE for Troy. He had a good Senior Bowl at OLB in the 4-3, he's further along in coverage skills then many of the Defensive Ends coming out of college due to the zone blitz Troy plays. 4th round seems about right at the moment.
-- Brandon Lang (Troy): Played DE for Troy, but did drop into coverage in their zone blitz scheme. Stiffer than Sheffield, he's rated higher as a DE because of his size, but I rate him lower as a 3-4 OLB because he'd be more limited in space. 4-5th rounds.
-- Alex Daniels (Cincinnati): High School LB, converted to RB for Minnesota as a sophomore and was their 2nd leading rusher, transferred to Cincinnati and sat out a year after getting in trouble, was converted to 4-3 DE, his senior year he played 3-4 DE. If you watched the slaughter in the Sugar Bowl you may remember a player wearing #4 running Tebow all around? He had 6 TT, 3 TFL, and 2 sacks in that game. He's a late round candidate.
-- Jason Beauchamp (UNLV): Played OLB in their 3-4 (Adam Seward was an ILB - yes, it had to be said), he had a good Shrine Game and week. Late rounder.
-- Matt Featherston (Texas A&M): The "other" "jack" LB for A&M. Von Miller has the explosive burst in the pass rush, but Featherston was the tough run stuffer on the second line (like hockey, A&M alternated lines, though they would single sub Featherston and Miller based on game needs). Despite not having a strong burst off the edge, he still got pressure on the QB. NE and Pit were reported to be very interested in Miller, when you looked at how A&M used their jacks you could see why since they are used very much like a 3-4 OLB. Featherston may not have the athleticism to make it in the NFL, but he's a decent UDFA flyer to see what he can do in camp.
-- Junior Galette (Stillman): Played SLB and DE at Temple in the MAC before getting in trouble and transferring out. High School LB and FB. Combine invite, so we'll get some idea how athletic he is. For now he's projected as a UDFA.

There are several DE conversion projects in the late round/UDFA ranks whom NE might take a chance on, Frank Zombo (Central Michigan), Dexter Davis (AZ State), Antonio Coleman (Auburn), Justin Cole & Carl Ihenacho (San Jose), Arthur Moats (James Madison), Danny Batten (South Dakota State), Daniel Te'o-Nesheim (Washington), Jan Jorgensen (BYU), Brandon Sharpe (TX Tech), Barry Turner (Nebraska)

Misi, Norwood and Sheffield are solid 3rd round prospects. I like all of them. I don't know all of the guys you've listed, but I trust your judgment. As I recall, on of the obscure OLs you were pushing this time last year was a guy named Sebastian Vollmer.

I'll push from the top of the draft, you push from the bottom, and maybe we'll meet somewhere in the middle.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo is chasing top notch DE candidates, the ones who have dominated as edge rushers and are long bodies for clogging throwing lanes. I've been looking more at the kids who are have already been playing similar roles to those they'd be expected to play for NE:

-- Koa Misi (Utah): Go watch their bowl game against Alabama last year, they switched from 3-4 to 4-3 with Misi playing NT, 3-tech, 5-tech, DE, and OLB as he fought double-teams inside, dropped into coverage, rushed the passer from 3-point and 2-point stances, and played the run as a DL and OLB. In short, he was a Mormon Mike Vrabel. He's my #1 OLB prospect, I'd use a mid-second on him.
-- Eric Norwood (South Carolina): He's been playing DE, 4-3 OLB, and MLB for at least three years. He's a stud edge rusher from either 3-point or a 2-point stance, he's pretty good against the run as a DE or an OLB, though he had a horrible bowl game against Connecticut as it appears SC has been teaching their LBs to not use their hands to engage OL, but rather to bend over and let the linemen rape them while the RB scoots upfield. Hopefully he can retrain that bad habit and get back to squaring up against OL and using his hands to stack and shed. He's not a natural in coverage, but I think he can be coached up better then he has been to date. He's slimmed down a little too much, apparently to get quicker as a LB to prepare himself for an NFL career, get him back up to 260 and develop him as a 2-down SILB with the third down on the edge rushing and you've got a Bruschi-like playmaker on the team. He can play reserve OLB/3rd down specialist while you're developing him inside - I've seen him use his hands in years past to engage OL, he was pretty good and can be again. Third round value.
-- Cameron Sheffield (Troy): Played LB and DE for Troy. He had a good Senior Bowl at OLB in the 4-3, he's further along in coverage skills then many of the Defensive Ends coming out of college due to the zone blitz Troy plays. 4th round seems about right at the moment.
-- Brandon Lang (Troy): Played DE for Troy, but did drop into coverage in their zone blitz scheme. Stiffer than Sheffield, he's rated higher as a DE because of his size, but I rate him lower as a 3-4 OLB because he'd be more limited in space. 4-5th rounds.
-- Alex Daniels (Cincinnati): High School LB, converted to RB for Minnesota as a sophomore and was their 2nd leading rusher, transferred to Cincinnati and sat out a year after getting in trouble, was converted to 4-3 DE, his senior year he played 3-4 DE. If you watched the slaughter in the Sugar Bowl you may remember a player wearing #4 running Tebow all around? He had 6 TT, 3 TFL, and 2 sacks in that game. He's a late round candidate.
-- Jason Beauchamp (UNLV): Played OLB in their 3-4 (Adam Seward was an ILB - yes, it had to be said), he had a good Shrine Game and week. Late rounder.
-- Matt Featherston (Texas A&M): The "other" "jack" LB for A&M. Von Miller has the explosive burst in the pass rush, but Featherston was the tough run stuffer on the second line (like hockey, A&M alternated lines, though they would single sub Featherston and Miller based on game needs). Despite not having a strong burst off the edge, he still got pressure on the QB. NE and Pit were reported to be very interested in Miller, when you looked at how A&M used their jacks you could see why since they are used very much like a 3-4 OLB. Featherston may not have the athleticism to make it in the NFL, but he's a decent UDFA flyer to see what he can do in camp.
-- Junior Galette (Stillman): Played SLB and DE at Temple in the MAC before getting in trouble and transferring out. High School LB and FB. Combine invite, so we'll get some idea how athletic he is. For now he's projected as a UDFA.

There are several DE conversion projects in the late round/UDFA ranks whom NE might take a chance on, Frank Zombo (Central Michigan), Dexter Davis (AZ State), Antonio Coleman (Auburn), Justin Cole & Carl Ihenacho (San Jose), Arthur Moats (James Madison), Danny Batten (South Dakota State), Daniel Te'o-Nesheim (Washington), Jan Jorgensen (BYU), Brandon Sharpe (TX Tech), Barry Turner (Nebraska)

Box, what do you think of Nevada DE Kevin Basped? Is there anything worth looking at there?

 

[Seneschal2]

Mayo is chasing top notch DE candidates, the ones who have dominated as edge rushers and are long bodies for clogging throwing lanes. I've been looking more at the kids who have already been playing similar roles to those they'd be expected to play for NE:

Right. So weeding out the two groups (long bodies & those who have proven versatility), is the next step in finding those who fit best. In BB's perfect world, the prospects w/ prototypical size and versatility may be few, add in the all-important intangibles factor, and we're looking at a list of maybe zero candidates. If that's accurate, BB will be left to choose from the prospects who match the most important qualities (to him). Chances are, that edge rusher we're all seeking will lack a couple of inches, pounds, pass rush techniques, level of comp, or will need to be coached up to play in space. This reads like a player we won't find in round one (in this draft). JMHO.

 

[DaBruinz]

But the cost for TBC was a 7th round pick, not a 1st or high/mid 2nd round pick that it would take for Graham. That's too much if he's just a glorified situational pass rusher.

The cost for TBC has nothing to do with the cost for Graham. TBC had something come up just before the draft that dropped his stock.

 

[Seneschal2]

The cost for TBC has nothing to do with the cost for Graham. TBC had something come up just before the draft that dropped his stock.

Correct. TBC was the official sleeper pick of mine at his position. I had him projected as a R 2-3 prospect. I waited and waited (and wondered) why he was passed over. He slid for some reason...and will always be just one example of how scouts, coaches, and GMs know the real inside scoop.

For this reason, I'm very leery of projections. They're necessary for draftniks -- but hardly reliable.

 

[Charles Barwin]

So MayoClinic, you think Dunlap could step right in as a strong side OLB in our current scheme?

It seems like the coverage concerns about Graham would also apply to Dunlap. Is that not the case?

Is Dunlap a bit better in coverage to your eye?

 

[mayoclinic]

So MayoClinic, you think Dunlap could step right in as a strong side OLB in our current scheme?

It seems like the coverage concerns about Graham would also apply to Dunlap. Is that not the case?

Is Dunlap a bit better in coverage to your eye?

Like Graham, I think Dunlap would be used at both DE and OLB. But I've been impressed with Dunlap's change of direction, and what I've seen of Graham he's mostly been moving forward. I suspect Dunlap would have better hips and would be more adept at playing standing up (he already plays higher than Dunlap) and dropping back into coverage.

But we'll see how they look at the combine. I hope they do some LB drills as well as DE drills.

Looking at the Senior Bowl North team DE drills and comparing Brandon Graham and Austen Lane, Graham looks like a much better DE prospect. He gets down lower, explodes out of his stance, uses his pads well, and has great hand technique. Lane, on the other hand, looks like a much better OLB prospect. He has much better lateral mobility, better change of direction, much quicker feet, and looks more comfortable standing up.

 

[Charles Barwin]

I'm very curious to know what other NFL teams' 3-4 schemes look like that allow one OLB to mostly just rush the passer/defend the run.

Mayo, Guyton, and McKenzie all seem to cover a lot of ground well.

If Dunlap or Graham were drafted, it seems like we could let them focus on a "sick 'em" mentality while our other rangy 'backers pick up the coverage slack.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Wasn't John Randle (137.5 sacks) only 6 feet tall?

Far too much is made over measurements as opposed to what players can actually do on the field.

 

[mgteich]

Last year there was a player that supposedly had top 10 talent. As late as a couple of weeks before the draft, some of us were wondering whether we would trade up to him at 12 or 14 if he dropped that far.

Everette Brown was arguably a 10 pick other than for the fact that he was only 6' 2" and had relatively short arms. We needed a DE and an OLB. We passed on Brown at 34, at 40 and again at 41.

So, does being relaively short matter is considering a DE or tweener? You be the judge. However, it did seem to matter in last year's draft.

 

[Sciz]

Height can be dealt with, but his arms are tiny! That's my major concern right now. Sure, Dumervil is short, but he has 32 3/4'' arms. Woodley, who everybody compares Graham to, has 32 7/8'' arms. If you wanna look at 4-3 DEs, Dwight Freeney has 33'' arms. Sure, you can't write him off because of this, but when you look at the short guys that manage to excel in the NFL, they all have above average arm length for their height.

 

[mayoclinic]

Wasn't John Randle (137.5 sacks) only 6 feet tall?

Far too much is made over measurements as opposed to what players can actually do on the field.

He was 6'1". Warren Sapp was 6'2". Both were quick penetrating DTs. Sedrick Ellis and Glenn Dorsey are both 6'1" as well. It's a common height for that position. Different situation altogether.

 

[alvinnf]

I want football players. First and foremost....
Brandon Graham= Dessert Swarm Tedy Bruschi
Relentless, non stop motor football players!