Nice discussion of the rookies from Scout.com (public article)

[Patjew]

Here's a question for the BB defenders. If BB is such a genius, why is taking him so long to rebuild an average LB group?

Because its really, really hard.

 

[maverick4]

I'm surprised that BB doesn't value LB's for a 3-4 defense because this is where your pressure comes from.

Here's a question for the BB defenders. If BB is such a genius, why is taking him so long to rebuild an average LB group?

William Belichick made his mark coaching maybe the best 3-4 linebacking corps ever with the 1980's NY Giants teams. There were multiple HOF linebackers on those teams.

He then went on to win 3 Superbowl championships as a head coach, using mostly older or unheralded linebackers with the Patriots.

This past year, he selected the Defensive Rookie of the Year in Mayo.

Hey Bro = practice squad troll

 

[PatsBoy12]

The Pats only made the super bowl once in the 90's and got handled by the Green Bay Packers.

What's your point? BB wasn't coaching them in the 90's. I made the 90's reference with the Steelers because that was when they had Lloyd and some of the other guys you mentioned. Again, this is not about defending BB. I thought I made that clear. I just don't know what you're expecting. When the LB corp was in it's prime, the Patriots won. He went and got Rosie Colvin one offseason, and he played well. He went and got AD one offseason, and he's played well. He was having a heck of a year before being injured last season. You mentioned in the initial post that none of those guys were athletic and only flourished because they were smart . . . well, I'll take a smart athlete over a pure athletic freak any day, wouldn't you? What more should he be doing? What would you do in his position?

This man has won SB's and is regarded by many, including other coaches, as the best in the game. You make it seem like anyone who points that out is just blindly defending the man. I assure you that I've criticized Belichick before, but hasn't he earned the respect of many for his moves? Seriously? If you know so much about building a LB corp, with all seriousness, maybe you should be on an NFL team's payroll in some capacity. Why keep the knowledge for forum banter. You should be using it to make financial gains. I don't know. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion.

HBWU, I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from. I'm not trying to attack you or argue with you or any of that. I just have a hard time understanding your angle.

William Belichick made his mark coaching maybe the best 3-4 linebacking corps ever with the 1980's NY Giants teams. There were multiple HOF linebackers on those teams.

He then went on to win 3 Superbowl championships as a head coach, using mostly older or unheralded linebackers with the Patriots.

This past year, he selected the Defensive Rookie of the Year in Mayo.

Hey Bro = practice squad troll

Though I won't engage in name-calling, I feel you on this. I'm really having a hard time understanding where he's coming from, as are many. In his mind, we're all just being BB defenders. I've tried to explain that I'm far from that, but I don't think he wants to believe it.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Bro

Might want to check the age and recent injuries for that D-line. All are at or around 30 with injuries. It's a window thing.

Besides can anyone really say that the vaunted Steelers defense would ever keep Brady and Co under 30 points? The Cardinals offense tooled them all over the field. Too bad the 30th ranked defense on a 9-7 team couldn't get it done.

 

[MetalBleachers]

LBs have been the lifeblood of the Pats' championship teams. They've got last year's DROY and a 3rd-rounder (Crable) from last year, as well as an undrafted guy (Woods) who's slated to start this year. If they can hold the fort with those two platooning, I think that says a lot about BB's coaching ability.

Add to that the rise of Mike Vrabel from career backup to starter on a SB champ, plus TBC's maturation from a 7th-round draft pick to starter, and it seems that NE knows how to handle LBs.

If Rosie hadn't had a freak injury and Adalius Thomas hadn't gotten nicked up the past couple of years, we might not be having this conversation.

 

[MetalBleachers]

Because its really, really hard.

Amen. :agree:

 

[PatsBoy12]

LBs have been the lifeblood of the Pats' championship teams. They've got last year's DROY and a 3rd-rounder (Crable) from last year, as well as an undrafted guy (Woods) who's slated to start this year. If they can hold the fort with those two platooning, I think that says a lot about BB's coaching ability.

Add to that the rise of Mike Vrabel from career backup to starter on a SB champ, plus TBC's maturation from a 7th-round draft pick to starter, and it seems that NE knows how to handle LBs.

If Rosie hadn't had a freak injury and Adalius Thomas hadn't gotten nicked up the past couple of years, we might not be having this conversation.

Very well-written statement. Thanks for posting this. I believe I touched on this very thing in an earlier post as well.

 

[DaBruinz]

I look at a team like Pittsburgh and have to admit that **** LeBeau runs the 3-4 to perfection. Also, their front office is awesome when it comes to replacing key parts at certain positions. In particular, Pittsburgh never goes wrong when LB's need to be replaced. Just when you think their defense is going to take a step back, they don't. They lose Kendrell Bell (former rookie of the year), no problem. They lose Greg Llyod, no problem. They lose Lavon Kirkland, no problem. They lose Joey Porter, no problem. They lose Clark Haggans, no problem. Pittsburgh is a LB machine. I'm just saying, if New England ever get's athletically gifted LB's to complement the D-line will really show how good BB really is. It's just disappointing to see their stellar D-line go to waste with average LB's. However, having Mayo in the middle is a good start.

I always find it amusing when people mention the "greatness" of Pittsburgh's 3-4 defense. Why? Because its a different system than what BB runs. Pittsburgh runs a less complicated version, known as the 1 GAP. BB and the Pats run a 2 Gap system.

Now, I also find it kinda funny that you mention Lloyd, Kirkland, Porter, Bell, and Haggans... Considering you are talking about a 12 year period of time and that some of the players you mentioned replaced the other players.

Lets review them.
Bell - Yeah, he won DROY and played a total of a bit more than 3 years in Pittsburgh... Then was banished to KC.
Haggans - Spent 4 years on the Steelers before getting his 1st start. And during 2005, he spent as much time on the bench as he did on the field.
Lloyd -The last year he was in Pitt was 1997...
Kirkland - The last year he was in Pittsburgh was 2000
Porter - Mr. Loudmouth himself...

The Patriots have said that its a lot harder for them to draft linebackers because they expect so much from them.

 

[DaBruinz]

Im with you on this one. Listen nobody is perfect but we have passed on plenty of good LBs and now we might I repeat 'might' have a problem. I just hate when people defend BB tooth and Nail. He is human he makes mistakes like everybody else. I also just want to point out that HBWU? never said BB, he said that Pats as a whole. Maybe Pitt scouts LB's better who knows. Mayo is a great start.

Why am I not surprised that you chime in and take shots at BB? No one said that BB was perfect. And while the Pats have "passed on plenty of good LBers", please share with everyone just how those LBers would have done under BB in the Pats 3-4 2 Gap Defensive Scheme.

 

[DaBruinz]

The Pats defense is heading in the right direction, but far from finishing touches. Sure their O-line sucks, but how is their D-line falling apart?

The top starters for the Pittsburgh D-line all have at least 8 years experience. However, I like the addition of Ziggy Hood at DE. Pittsburgh will be looking at NT in the draft next year as well as DE again.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I always find it amusing when people mention the "greatness" of Pittsburgh's 3-4 defense. Why? Because its a different system than what BB runs. Pittsburgh runs a less complicated version, known as the 1 GAP. BB and the Pats run a 2 Gap system.

Now, I also find it kinda funny that you mention Lloyd, Kirkland, Porter, Bell, and Haggans... Considering you are talking about a 12 year period of time and that some of the players you mentioned replaced the other players.

Lets review them.
Bell - Yeah, he won DROY and played a total of a bit more than 3 years in Pittsburgh... Then was banished to KC.
Haggans - Spent 4 years on the Steelers before getting his 1st start. And during 2005, he spent as much time on the bench as he did on the field.
Lloyd -The last year he was in Pitt was 1997...
Kirkland - The last year he was in Pittsburgh was 2000
Porter - Mr. Loudmouth himself...

The Patriots have said that its a lot harder for them to draft linebackers because they expect so much from them.

Excellent post. I also pointed ou the fact that during that span of LB dominance (apparently), Pittsburgh made a total of one SB appearance, in which that particular LB corp and the team were handled by Dallas.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

William Belichick made his mark coaching maybe the best 3-4 linebacking corps ever with the 1980's NY Giants teams. There were multiple HOF linebackers on those teams.

He then went on to win 3 Superbowl championships as a head coach, using mostly older or unheralded linebackers with the Patriots.

This past year, he selected the Defensive Rookie of the Year in Mayo.

Hey Bro = practice squad troll

Your argument is terrible. Everybody in defense of BB says the same thing. First, he coached the Giants. I'm not talking about the Giants, I'm talking about the Patriots. Also, was BB in charge of drafting guys like Harry Carson, Carl Banks and Lawrence Taylor? If he wasn't, it makes your argument even worse. Second, "But he's won 3 super bowls with older unheralded LB's". Thanks for the great insight. Since 2005, their LB's have been regressing and BB has drafted 2 LB's in the first 3 rounds since. Mayo is a good start but Crable is a question mark. Even any moron on the street can tell you that the LB's are what makes the 3-4 go. For a team that has had the least amount of holes on their roster since 2004, it should've have been a cake walk to replace their LB's.

 

[DaBruinz]

Your argument is terrible. Everybody in defense of BB says the same thing. First, he coached the Giants. I'm not talking about the Giants, I'm talking about the Patriots. Also, was BB in charge of drafting guys like Harry Carson, Carl Banks and Lawrence Taylor? If he wasn't, it makes your argument even worse. Second, "But he's won 3 super bowls with older unheralded LB's". Thanks for the great insight. Since 2005, their LB's have been regressing and BB has drafted 2 LB's in the first 3 rounds since. Mayo is a good start but Crable is a question mark. Even any moron on the street can tell you that the LB's are what makes the 3-4 go. For a team that has had the least amount of holes on their roster since 2004, it should've have been a cake walk to replace their LB's.

Then what do you call a person who has no concept of how hard it is to find players that will fit the system? Because that is what you are. Personally, I consider them clueless and they always remind me of the line from Forrest Gump that goes something like this: "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get." ALL sports drafts are the epitome of this phrase. The ONLY team that knows 100% who they are going to get is the #1 overall pick. And even then, they don't know how that person is going to perform on the field/rink/court.

Also, BB was heavily involved in the drafting of Carson, Carl Banks and Lawrence Taylor. Just like the coaches on the Pats are also heavily involved.

People go on and on about all these guys that they could have drafted, but very few stop to consider the following: How coachable is the player? How personable is the player? Can the player recognize the opposing team's plays prior to the snap? Does the player complete his assignment or does he free lance? If a player isn't coachable with Belichick's coaching style, how would he succeed here? If he's not personable, then how will he get along with other teammates? If he can't diagnose the play, then how does he know to react? If he can't complete his assignments, that leaves holes in the schemes. If he free lances, that leaves holes in the schemes..

There are a multitude of things that the Patriots look for. Its not just STATS or a particular height/weight combination. And too many people forget all these things. And they are things that we, as fans, can't know because we don't get to see behind the closed doors..

 

[PatsBoy12]

Then what do you call a person who has no concept of how hard it is to find players that will fit the system? Because that is what you are. Personally, I consider them clueless and they always remind me of the line from Forrest Gump that goes something like this: "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get." ALL sports drafts are the epitome of this phrase. The ONLY team that knows 100% who they are going to get is the #1 overall pick. And even then, they don't know how that person is going to perform on the field/rink/court.

Also, BB was heavily involved in the drafting of Carson, Carl Banks and Lawrence Taylor. Just like the coaches on the Pats are also heavily involved.

People go on and on about all these guys that they could have drafted, but very few stop to consider the following: How coachable is the player? How personable is the player? Can the player recognize the opposing team's plays prior to the snap? Does the player complete his assignment or does he free lance? If a player isn't coachable with Belichick's coaching style, how would he succeed here? If he's not personable, then how will he get along with other teammates? If he can't diagnose the play, then how does he know to react? If he can't complete his assignments, that leaves holes in the schemes. If he free lances, that leaves holes in the schemes..

There are a multitude of things that the Patriots look for. Its not just STATS or a particular height/weight combination. And too many people forget all these things. And they are things that we, as fans, can't know because we don't get to see behind the closed doors..

That's because everyone thinks they see everything when they watch a game on TV or when they watch highlights of the player on whatever sports channel or website. Nowadays, everyone is an expert. Few people stop to realize that these coaches spend hours watching a single play or game over and over from every angle possible to make their assessments. They don't stop to realize that sometimes these coaches actually go to watch these guys in person. I bet most people don't even know what to look for at certain positions in the first place. It's easy to throw out insults and criticisms when you have the incredible advantage of hindsight. To suggest that BB probably knows more about football than we do combined now draws the "defending BB tooth-and-nail" insults. I just don't get it.

Do some of you realize that it's his livelihood to evaluate players, manage a team and personnel, and all of the other things he does? Do you all realize that the man has compiled the second best winning percentage this decade and is the active leader among active NFL coaches in wins? Does all that mean the man is infallible or hasn't made mistakes? Of course it doesn't. What it does mean, however, is that he's pretty darn good at his job and he will one day be in Canton. All the people who are talking their nonsense have yet to propose what they would have done given the opportunity. If I thought I knew even half of what guys like BB, Dungy, Phil Jackson, and some of the other greats, I'd be turning in applications to every professional team out there. I wouldn't be on Patsfans.com talking smack and criticizing someone else's football knowledge.

Bruinz, I say just bow out of the argument because he's going to remain steadfast. In the end, people like you and me and others who acknowledge that BB probably knows more about football than the rest of us are just going to fall victim to he criticism that we're just blindly defending him and we think he's above making errors.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

People go on and on about all these guys that they could have drafted, but very few stop to consider the following: How coachable is the player? How personable is the player? Can the player recognize the opposing team's plays prior to the snap? Does the player complete his assignment or does he free lance? If a player isn't coachable with Belichick's coaching style, how would he succeed here? If he's not personable, then how will he get along with other teammates? If he can't diagnose the play, then how does he know to react? If he can't complete his assignments, that leaves holes in the schemes. If he free lances, that leaves holes in the schemes..

There are a multitude of things that the Patriots look for. Its not just STATS or a particular height/weight combination. And too many people forget all these things. And they are things that we, as fans, can't know because we don't get to see behind the closed doors..

Those are all great points, points that I can't argue with. My whole argument is that it took BB almost 10 years to draft a LB within the first three rounds of the draft. After their most recent super bowl win in 2004, LB has been their most glaring need. Each and every year, not only do the "NFL experts" acknowledge that LB is a glaring need, we acknowledge it's a glaring need as well. You don't exactly have to be an "NFL expert" to figure this out. The Pats struggled in 2005 because their LB's were dreadful. They lost the AFCCG because their LB's were exhausted and had a lack of depth. Finally, some can argue that the defense lost them the super bowl in 2007 and their defense as a whole sucked in 2008.

It's kind of odd that the consensus on this board states that the weakest link on this team is at LB. However, some people in this thread seem to think otherwise. So which one is it?

 

[Deus Irae]

Those are all great points, points that I can't argue with. My whole argument is that it took BB almost 10 years to draft a LB within the first three rounds of the draft. After their most recent super bowl win in 2004, LB has been their most glaring need. Each and every year, not only do the NFL experts acknowledge that LB is a glaring need, we acknowledge it's a glaring need as well. You don't exactly have to be an "NFL expert" to figure this out. The Pats struggled in 2005 because their LB's were dreadful. They lost the AFCCG because their LB's were exhausted and had a lack of depth. Finally, some can argue that the defense lost them the super bowl in 2007 and their defense as a whole sucked in 2008.

It's kind of odd that the consensus on this board states that the weakest link on this team is at LB. However, some people in this thread seem to think otherwise. So which one is it?

Not precisely on point, but close enough:

Belichick has taken a different approach, and it's yielded 3 Super Bowl Victories, 4 Super Bowl appearances, 5 AFCCG appearances and a 16-0 regular season. What Belichick has done is draft just the opposite of Parcells: DL is the prime focus and linebackers are drafted in late rounds. The starters under BB have been veterans from around the league, and the low round draft picks (and UDFA) have filled out the roster depth. It's been an absolutely brilliant strategy, but it's had one problem: injuries. As I pointed out in another thread comparing the Patriots plan for linebackers with that of the Steelers, the Steelers have been amazingly fortunate with injuries. In his first year as a Patriot, Colvin missed just 2 games fewer than all the Steelers' starters have missed from that same season to the present. In fact, if you add up his 2003 and 2007 games missed due to injury, Colvin alone has missed more games than the entire starting linebacking corps of the Steelers since 2003.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/240182-future-patriots-d-3-4-tipping-point.html#post1387602

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Not precisely on point, but close enough:



In his first year as a Patriot, Colvin missed just 2 games fewer than all the Steelers' starters have missed from that same season to the present. In fact, if you add up his 2003 and 2007 games missed due to injury, Colvin alone has missed more games than the entire starting linebacking corps of the Steelers since 2003.

I agree that the Colvin injury in 2003 really jacked up the Pats plan for 3-4. In fact, I think Colvin could've been a sack machine like he was in Chicago. But ever since his injury, he really was never the same. Also, the random stroke to Teddy Bruschi hurt as well.

What Belichick has done is draft just the opposite of Parcells: DL is the prime focus and linebackers are drafted in late rounds.

BB had his D-line complete when they drafted Wilfork in 2004. How many D-lineman for a 3-4 do you need? Again from 2005-2009, BB only drafted 2 LB's in the first 3 rounds. Also, the Pats have been so cheap with their money and so inflated with their ego that they actually thought they could make Monty Biesel a starting caliber LB. In addition, they thought they could revive the career of Chad Brown as well. It didn't take an "NFL expert" to figure out that these were questionable moves.

 

[Deus Irae]

BB had his D-line complete when they drafted Wilfork in 2004. How many D-lineman for a 3-4 do you need? Again from 2005-2009, BB only drafted 2 LB's in the first 3 rounds. Also, the Pats have been so cheap with their money and so inflated with their ego that they actually thought they could make Monty Biesel a starting caliber LB. In addition, they thought they could revive the career of Chad Brown as well.

1.) Had Wilfork gone down for any length of time, this team would have been up a certain creek without a paddle. Saying that the line was complete is just insane. The line is finally 'complete' now, if Brace pans out, and this 'complete' line may last only one season due to the contract situations of Wilfork and Seymour.

2.) Bruschi suffered his stroke in 2005, and Ted Johnson didn't retire until training camp of that same season. Guys like Beisel and Brown were forced into situations they weren't prepared for or capable of as a result.

3.) Adalius Thomas was signed, you may recall. Unfortunately, he's been Colvin-like in his struggles with injury.

4.) Why you people insist on arguing the same non-issues over and over is something that never fails to set me to wondering:

Mankins/Hobbs/Kaczur

Maroney/Jackson/Thomas

Meriweather

Mayo/Wheatley/Crable

Chung/Brace/Butler/Vollmer/Tate/McKenzie

That's all the top 3 round picks in the period you mention. The only player chosen in that group that didn't fill a 'need' is Tate.

5.) Now, about that DL argument, find the D-lineman drafted in the first 3 rounds post-Wilfork and prior to this draft.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Excellent post. I also pointed ou the fact that during that span of LB dominance (apparently), Pittsburgh made a total of one SB appearance, in which that particular LB corp and the team were handled by Dallas.

I would add that the typical Steeler player isn't smart enough to play in a Belichick system.

 

[apple strudel]

Even any moron on the street can tell you that the LB's are what makes the 3-4 go.

Funny thing how it's the DL that makes the Patriots' 3-4 go, though.