We Don't Need To Find More Cap Room

[spacecrime]

They do need cap room. I didn't think this was really even in question. They can't sign Wilfork to an extension until they get more cap room,

Ovbiously it's a question, or people wouldn't be debating it.

They don't "need" to sign Wilfork. You may want them to, as I do, but that doesn't mean they "NEED" to extend him.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ovbiously it's a question, or people wouldn't be debating it.

They don't "need" to sign Wilfork. You may want them to, as I do, but that doesn't mean they "NEED" to extend him.

They don't "need" to sign anyone other than 53 scrubs off the street for the minimum total amount of money mandated under the current CBA. The working assumption is that we're talking about what's needed in order to keep the team moving forward. As for "debating", until Mgteich made the thread, I hadn't seen any debate on the subject.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

Some members are still having pipe dreams about getting Julius

Peppers.

As much as i would love peppers to be a patriot at this point i dont see it happening unfortunately! Not unless, BB pulls something out of his hat!!

 

[mgteich]

I'll state what I think to be the obvious. Why would any agent have any top level client sign an extension now, when the monies available next year are likely to be more? This should only take place if a team greatly overpays, something the patriots will not do.

Sure we could extend Green or Faulk or Kaczur or Neal or even LeKevin Smith, but none of these would cost much cap money.

I will be shocked if Wilfork, Seymour, Gostkowski or Mankins signs before next season's free agency starts.

I'll let you know when I see the contract.

His hit for this season, as you've got posted, is under $3 million. Unless the Patriots are going to let Wilfork hit the market, he's going to get some new money this year and the cap will need to cover it. And Wilfork's not the only player who's contract 'needs' addressing. Between the RFAs and the UFAs, the Patriots are either going to need to be active with contracts this season, or they're going to be bidding on the open market just to keep their own players next season.

Gostkowski
Faulk
Seymour
Wilfork
Green
Neal
Kazcur
Mankins

Are just some of the players who'll be free agents after this year. I don't expect that the team will want them all to return, but there's going to be some that will need good money if they're to be convinced to stick around. One could, of course, apply the word 'need' in such a way as to ignore all of this, but that would be a mighty tight reading of it, especially given that Wilfork's talked about his extension.

Jarvis Green would net $2 million in cap space if the team cut him. I certainly don't consider that an impossibility.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'll state what I think to be the obvious. Why would any agent have any top level client sign an extension now, when the monies available next year are likely to be more? This should only take place if a team greatly overpays, something the patriots will not do.

Sure we could extend Green or Faulk or Kaczur or Neal or even LeKevin Smith, but none of these would cost much cap money.

I will be shocked if Wilfork, Seymour, Gostkowski or Mankins signs before next season's free agency starts.

1.) Wilfork clearly wants to sign before next season's free agency starts.

2.) Given Wilfork's preference, there's no real need to add anything more here.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

1.) Wilfork clearly wants to sign before next season's free agency starts.

2.) Given Wilfork's preference, there's no real need to add anything more here.

He may want to sign but apparently not for what they last offered. And according to Reiss there haven't been any renewed talks this offseason. The good news is he's down with his decision to hold out for the deal he wants whether it takes a while or ultimately comes from someone else. Ty Warren was down with the early discount deal. Different strokes...

They will either have more cap flexability (under a new CBA) or no cap and two tags and a bunch of RFA's to deal with in 2010. Either scenario works for the guys they want to keep who reasonably want to extend here. For unreasonable guys timing is meaningless...

 

[Deus Irae]

He may want to sign but apparently not for what they last offered. And according to Reiss there haven't been any renewed talks this offseason. The good news is he's down with his decision to hold out for the deal he wants whether it takes a while or ultimately comes from someone else. Ty Warren was down with the early discount deal. Different strokes...

They will either have more cap flexability (under a new CBA) or no cap and two tags and a bunch of RFA's to deal with in 2010. Either scenario works for the guys they want to keep who reasonably want to extend here. For unreasonable guys timing is meaningless...

Again, the assumption is that the Patriots will actually want to field a championship quality team again next season. If they just want to bring in 53 longshoremen for tryouts next year, they're covered for that. If they want to keep competitive for 2010, that changes things.

 

[mgteich]

Please re-state you position.

Is it that unless the team overpays for Wilfork this year, more than he imagines he can get next year, that the patriots will not be competitive in 2010.

Surely you're are not being that ridiculous.

Again, the assumption is that the Patriots will actually want to field a championship quality team again next season. If they just want to bring in 53 longshoremen for tryouts next year, they're covered for that. If they want to keep competitive for 2010, that changes things.

 

[Deus Irae]

Please re-state you position.

Is it that unless the team overpays for Wilfork this year, more than he imagines he can get next year, that the patriots will not be competitive in 2010.

Surely you're are not being that ridiculous.

Let's not start with this nonsense. You know full well that I've neither said nor implied any such thing.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Again, the assumption is that the Patriots will actually want to field a championship quality team again next season. If they just want to bring in 53 longshoremen for tryouts next year, they're covered for that. If they want to keep competitive for 2010, that changes things.

They don't have to sign guys in 2009 to retain them for 2010 and beyond. They have a couple of months between the end of the season and the start of FA when they have exclusive access to their own impending FA. If there is a new CBA the rules on contract construction will make it easier to craft long term extensions for lots of players, including Brady whose new deal could then save millions on the 2010-2012 caps. Then his and other new contracts can be constructed with signing, option and roster bonuses that layer the payouts and spread the cash and cap impacts. If there is no CBA there is no cap and Mankins and Gostowski and Kaczur, etc, are RFA and Wilfork and/or Seymour can wear either the franchise or transition tag (if they are willing to sign one to a market deal).

There will be other guys up after this year they may or may not want to extend. Neal is one example, but he and Faulk ain't getting any younger and the last time Neal was a FA he had NO takers anyway... We never keep 'em all, anyway. We draft and sign other veteran FA, which if we lose some we will be able to do even under the rules of an expiring CBA. Sometimes you need change and turnover to keep something going. We will have the money (cash) and the means (we are currently projected at $51m+ under a 2010 cap that will increase if the CBA gets extended and there is one with 36 players signed) to replace whomever leaves with something a cut above your melodramatic reference to longshoremen...

Smart teams are reportedly not willing to commit too many big dollars to too many big extensions in the present environment either facing a potential work stoppage in 2011, either.

 

[jmt57]

I'll state what I think to be the obvious. Why would any agent have any top level client sign an extension now, when the monies available next year are likely to be more? This should only take place if a team greatly overpays, something the patriots will not do.

Sure we could extend Green or Faulk or Kaczur or Neal or even LeKevin Smith, but none of these would cost much cap money.

I will be shocked if Wilfork, Seymour, Gostkowski or Mankins signs before next season's free agency starts.

For one thing there is the matter of security. That is a primary reason any player signs an extension in any season. A player can opt to play out his contract and try to make more money as a free agent, but in so doing he risks that he may become injured and his value could decrease; that is, he could end up making less money as a free agent than he would have had he signed an extension. NFL football is a violent game in which injuries are a very real and significant factor to both teams and players. There is a risk/reward to becoming a free agent versus signing an extension; this season is no different in that regards to any other season.

There is also the presumption that next year will be an uncapped year. That is not necessarilly true; in fact, the two sides may also reach an agreement in which the cap is the same, or even lowered. If that were to happen then players who were waiting for a big payday may find that they would have been better off signing an extension the previous year. While I agree that either an uncapped year or next season having a higher cap number than this season is more likely than next year having a lower cap number, it is still a possibility that agents and players may want to consider.

However, as it stands now all this is really a moot point since the Pats simply don't have enough cap room to realistically extend the players mentioned above. Regardless if they want to extend their contracts this offseason or we as fans want to see them extended, they are going to have to wait until next March to get a new contract.

Best case scenario is to work out preliminary agreements with these players and their agents ahead of time so they are all signed to new contracts at 12:01 am on the first day of free agency nine months from now. Obviously that's not going to happen with all of them, but it would be nice to see that happen with as many of these guys as possible.

 

[Deus Irae]

They don't have to sign guys in 2009 to retain them for 2010 and beyond. They have a couple of months between the end of the season and the start of FA when they have exclusive access to their own impending FA. If there is a new CBA the rules on contract construction will make it easier to craft long term extensions for lots of players, including Brady whose new deal could then save millions on the 2010-2012 caps. Then his and other new contracts can be constructed with signing, option and roster bonuses that layer the payouts and spread the cash and cap impacts. If there is no CBA there is no cap and Mankins and Gostowski and Kaczur, etc, are RFA and Wilfork and/or Seymour can wear either the franchise or transition tag (if they are willing to sign one to a market deal).

There will be other guys up after this year they may or may not want to extend. Neal is one example, but he and Faulk ain't getting any younger and the last time Neal was a FA he had NO takers anyway... We never keep 'em all, anyway. We draft and sign other veteran FA, which if we lose some we will be able to do even under the rules of an expiring CBA. Sometimes you need change and turnover to keep something going. We will have the money (cash) and the means (we are currently projected at $51m+ under a 2010 cap that will increase if the CBA gets extended and there is one with 36 players signed) to replace whomever leaves with something a cut above your melodramatic reference to longshoremen...

Smart teams are reportedly not willing to commit too many big dollars to too many big extensions in the present environment either facing a potential work stoppage in 2011, either.

Patriots | Have yet to reopen talks with Wilfork
Mon, 11 May 2009 10:08:10 -0700

Mike Reiss, of The Boston Globe, reports the New England Patriots have yet to reopen contract talks with DL Vince Wilfork. However, Wilfork, who enters the final year of his contract, is one of the team's top priorities, now that the free agency period and the NFL Draft are over.

Patriots | Brace selection gives team more flexibility
Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:33:41 -0700

Mike Reiss, of The Boston Globe, reports the New England Patriots have five of their eight defensive linemen entering the final year of their contact. In selecting DT Ron Brace in the 2009 NFL Draft, the Patriots give themselves a fallback plan - and perhaps a little leverage - if things don't work out contractually with DT Vince Wilfork.

Patriots | Talking extension with Wilfork
Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:37:03 -0700

Karen Guregian, of the Boston Herald, reports the New England Patriots have been communicating with DL Vince Wilfork about a possible contract extension. Wilfork is optimistic he can finish his career as a Patriot. "I believe it'll work out. I'm just going to let it run its course and play out," Wilfork said. "I know they have the draft coming up. They have stuff to take care of. As long as we're on the same page, I don't care that we can't do anything right now. I understand that. We've been in contact the last month or two. I'm very happy with where we're at. They're happy with where we're at. Hopefully we'll get something done, whenever that may be. …They know I want to be a Patriot. I want to start my career as a Patriot, and finish as one. I've said it from Day One. I meant that sincerely. So I think it'll work out. I think everything will work for the best."

Let's just say that reports about a Wilfork extension are mixed, and even Reiss isn't saying that they aren't planning to work out the extension.

 

[mgteich]

Why would any player sign a contract at 12:01 on the first day of the offseason? Why not wait to see what other teams offer?

And I am NOT presuming an uncapped year. If I were, I wouldn't have considered Mankins who would be an RFA. Also, then we would need to consider that BOTH Wilfork and Seymour could be signed to the two franchise tags.

I do believe that Wilfork will extend with the patriots. HOWEVER, I can also imagine offers from other teams that might make that choice very expensive for the patriots. In any case, NO ONE knows what that market price will be, and will not know until the beginning of next year's offseason.

For one thing there is the matter of security. That is a primary reason any player signs an extension in any season. A player can opt to play out his contract and try to make more money as a free agent, but in so doing he risks that he may become injured and his value could decrease; that is, he could end up making less money as a free agent than he would have had he signed an extension. NFL football is a violent game in which injuries are a very real and significant factor to both teams and players. There is a risk/reward to becoming a free agent versus signing an extension; this season is no different in that regards to any other season.

There is also the presumption that next year will be an uncapped year. That is not necessarilly true; in fact, the two sides may also reach an agreement in which the cap is the same, or even lowered. If that were to happen then players who were waiting for a big payday may find that they would have been better off signing an extension the previous year. While I agree that either an uncapped year or next season having a higher cap number than this season is more likely than next year having a lower cap number, it is still a possibility that agents and players may want to consider.

However, as it stands now all this is really a moot point since the Pats simply don't have enough cap room to realistically extend the players mentioned above. Regardless if they want to extend their contracts this offseason or we as fans want to see them extended, they are going to have to wait until next March to get a new contract.

Best case scenario is to work out preliminary agreements with these players and their agents ahead of time so they are all signed to new contracts at 12:01 am on the first day of free agency nine months from now. Obviously that's not going to happen with all of them, but it would be nice to see that happen with as many of these guys as possible.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

However, as it stands now all this is really a moot point since the Pats simply don't have enough cap room to realistically extend the players mentioned above. Regardless if they want to extend their contracts this offseason or we as fans want to see them extended, they are going to have to wait until next March to get a new contract.

Best case scenario is to work out preliminary agreements with these players and their agents ahead of time so they are all signed to new contracts at 12:01 am on the first day of free agency nine months from now. Obviously that's not going to happen with all of them, but it would be nice to see that happen with as many of these guys as possible.

We can sign our own FA to new deals anytime after the end of the current league year. That happens in late December. Thereafter all extensions count against future caps if any. The only people who can't talk to impending FA are teams they are not presently signed by. Wilfork could sign a new deal in January or February without ever reaching FA unless his desire is to hit the market. And if he wants every last nickle the market will bear then he isn't going to remain here anyway. I don't think he does, I just think he wants more than they can manage under an expiring CBA's restrictions and he isn't willing to take less just to get some form of long term deal done.

And the cap will not go down if there is one. The TV deals have already been extended through 2013 in some cases and that is where the bulk of the cap funding comes from. There is however a real possibility of a work stoppage looming on the horizen for 2011 and if that remains the case the 2010 FA market could be deafeningly quiet...as owners stockpile $$$ to see them though it. Otherwise they risk losing franchise infrastructure (coaches, marketing and administrative staff, stadium staff, etc.).

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

We have plenty of 2009 cap room. 2010 may not even have a cap. Yet, every day or so, we post about how to create 2009 cap room.

I partially agree with you. I'm not totally sure how much the Pats have left in cap for 2009, but it's not a lot. However, what people fail to understand is that having an uncapped 2010 will benefit teams like the Pats. Although it will probably only be temporary, the Pats will be able to re-sign their own players with ease and go after anybody they want. Next year's free agents are off the chain. The most notable players that are set to hit FA in 2010 are DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Julius Peppers, Karlos Dansby, Greg Jennings, Braylon Edwards and Brandon Marshall. However, I'm sure everyone on this list will get franchised except for Julius Peppers who will probably sign a similar one year tender ala Asante Samuel and Albert Haynesworth when they were franchised by their former teams. If next year is uncapped, I can see the Pats going on a shopping spree.

 

[Deus Irae]

I partially agree with you. I'm not totally sure how much the Pats have left in cap for 2009, but it's not a lot. However, what people fail to understand is that having an uncapped 2010 will benefit teams like the Pats. Although it will probably only be temporary, the Pats will be able to re-sign their own players with ease and go after anybody they want. Next year's free agents are off the chain. The most notable players that are set to hit FA in 2010 are DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Julius Peppers, Greg Jennings, Braylon Edwards and Brandon Marshall. However, I'm sure everyone on this list will get franchised except for Julius Peppers who will probably sign a similar one year tender ala Asante Samuel and Albert Haynesworth when they were franchised by their former teams. If next year is uncapped, I can see the Pats going on a shopping spree.

There are rules in the CBA which deal with the free agency and the impact of the uncapped season on it.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

There are rules in the CBA which deal with the free agency and the impact of the uncapped season on it.

I just read on profootballtalk.com about some stupid rule that playoff teams can't sign free agents unless their signed to replace players they lose. So I'm sure teams can always find loopholes to stupid rules that like. So if one the Pats LB's like Banta Cain or Woods are signed by another team, the Pats can just replace them with one of the LB's I listed in my post above (Peppers, Dansby, Ware, Merriman).

Other than that, at least the Pats can re-sign their own players like Mankins, Wilfork and Seymour. The NFL can't do s*** about that!

 

[Deus Irae]

I just read on profootballtalk.com about some stupid rule that playoff teams can't sign free agents unless their signed to replace players they lose. But at least the Pats can re-sign their own players like Mankins, Wilfork and Seymour. The NFL can't do s*** about that!

If the team waits until next year, it'll end up in bidding wars for its own players. Then, when the contracts are signed, they'll impact the salary cap room the team will have under the new CBA (I expect that there will be a cap in place), and could very well limit the team in the years AFTER next. I'd expect that the ideal contracts would contain options that allowed the team and/or player to opt out, with some restrictions, based upon how the negotiations for the new CBA go as well as upon the basic makeup of the new version once it's in place.

 

[Miguel]

So, for those of us who flunked capology. Are you saying they DO need more cap space, or they're ok?

I have said for years now that the Pats if they need cap space will be able to find the means to create cap space. If the Pats are happy with their current roster and do not plan to extend any players, then they are OK.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

If the team waits until next year, it'll end up in bidding wars for its own players. Then, when the contracts are signed, they'll impact the salary cap room the team will have under the new CBA (I expect that there will be a cap in place), and could very well limit the team in the years AFTER next. I'd expect that the ideal contracts would contain options that allowed the team and/or player to opt out, with some restrictions, based upon how the negotiations for the new CBA go as well as upon the basic makeup of the new version once it's in place.

Your right, but that is the risk the Pats are going to have to make. Your other point in bold is good as well. But if the Pats ever want their stud LB, 2010 is the year.