Steve Mariucci on Cassel's trade value

[Taxed in Maine]

I know I am the minority, but I agree with some pretty good people. Marriucci says keep him and more than a 1st if you trade. Jaws said if you trade him 1st and a second and a third or two firsts...

The Patriots may be, (actually ARE!) the odds on Las Vegas favorite for the Superbowl in 2009. In that case you keep Cassel at the franchise price; and trade him next season when KO'C is ready; and Brady is fully and absolutely healthy...

OK, Please explain this to me

Miguel has the Patriots at Approximately $19Million.

Cassell will be $14.6M.

Re-signing some of their own guys will take several Million

Free agency - If they want to get any at all they will need several more Million.

Then the rookie pool will probably be approximately $5M this year, it was $4.3M last year.

And they always seem to have a couple Million in reserve to sign injury replacements during the season.

So FA and re-signs are about $7M and rookies and the reserve another $7M,
then Cassell at 14.6

That would be about $28.6M...............only about $10M over the salary cap.
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The only way Cassell stays here is if he accepts a low-ball one or two year deal to be the backup. Why the heck would he do that when he can go somewhere else, get paid, and be the starter?

Cassell gets traded, and they sign a decent vet FA to be the 2nd or 3rd string guy.

Taxed

 

[DW Toys]

DW, no offense but that has got to be one of the worst proposals I have read.

Cassell, Maroney, Thomas and our #23 for LJ, Gonzalez, #3 and #34.

A turd RB, who not only has attitude problems, but also can't keep himself from beating up women? And a nearly washed up TE in the twilight of his HOF career? Please no!!!

Then draft Duke Robinson? I just cannot see him pulling and getting out in front of Welker on a screen play. He's a mauler for sure, and belongs on a team that uses a power running game.

Are you sure you shouldn't change you screen name to DW Millen?

You could be right. It was just for fun, but I disagree. I would take Gonzales in a heart beat with his washed up 96 receptions. This is an immediate upgrade for the "O" with TG. I know it is your opinion versus mine and I don't really care about LJ, but so far Maroney has not been productive at all nor has Thomas. Would anyone say they have been more than JAG's their first few years? They tease us. First person that says , "yes, but they have been hurt", maybe will get it too. You can't play in this league if you are always hurt. Even if we swap LJ for picks. What do we get for Maroney? Nada!

You are right. I would not want LJ dating any women I knew but his body of work has been productive and he is only 29. Can I evoke the "Dillon clause"?

No, My whole point was the K.C. #3 in round one. Would we be able to make the trade? If Pioli sees the value in having Cassel (and why wouldn't he. He drafted him) he could still get to keep a first round choice at #23 which is more salary friendly, get Cassel and move Gonzales who they intend to move anyway, for what basically becomes a second rounder. If Cassel it is being said, is going to require two #1 picks (I doubt it), why not the #34 pick to us and Gonzales with the #3 pick surely to be traded down by BB anyway, even if he gets a 2010 choice.

My draft choices are for thought and don't necessarily reflect the opinion of my family either. Just a thought. Mankins is surely mobile and so is Koppen (I like Koppen), but how many times have we seen Koppen be pushed into the backfield on a bull rush in a passing set or even a short yardage situation? At about 290+ he gets mauled. Robinson at RG might move the pile a bit. I agree on pulling but he must have had to jump to the outside in the offense he played sometimes. I kind of thought that sometime during this season we went away from the finesse O-Line approach, back to strait line blocking schemes? Again I would rather the CBs or Safeties I mentioned at #34 (or is the K.C. pick #35?). An OG would be nice in this draft at some point.
DW (Millen)Toys

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Why? Why do you want to be active in FA? Name me a single position that has a glaring hole without at least an average NFL player as the starter. Then name a position that doesn't have at least an average starter quality player as the reserve.

Having gone through the roster that way; and named only the QB position, without MC there; please tell me why don't you want QB depth?

How about safety? Meriweather is the only one signed right now. Sanders is a decent player, but there is no guarantee that he is returning. Harrison is probably done, and who knows about Tank? Even Lewis Sanders is a FA.

So yes, they need a starting quality safety.
They always bring in a bunch of free agents each year, even if some of them are just JAG camp fodder.


Seriously, nearly $30M tied up at the QB position?
They don't have but $18m - $20M tied up in Linbackers for next year, and there are usually four of them on the field at once

Depth at the QB position can also be had in FA.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Why? Why do you want to be active in FA? Name me a single position that has a glaring hole without at least an average NFL player as the starter. Then name a position that doesn't have at least an average starter quality player as the reserve.

Having gone through the roster that way; and named only the QB position, without MC there; please tell me why don't you want QB depth?

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

I love QB depth....and we have it with a 3rd rounder from last year and a guy Gutz who everyone wanted over Cassel going into last season. The problem is the cost to have that QB depth is too high. As pointed out well by Taxed in Maine if we franchise Cassel and keep him that will only leave us room to sign our draft picks. I think that Wright and Sanders needs to be resigned as well as others on the current roster but we would not have the money to do so if we keep MC. Going after a stud FA like Suggs (26y/o) or Asomugha (27/yo) to come in and make an impact on our defense and make it younger. That would also leave us two mid to late first round picks which we could use to get a good offensive (Top Linemen) and defensive player that could come in and make an impact. Bottom line we have an asset in Cassel and he is at the top of is value right now we need to move him to look to the future as well as make our team better.

As far as not having any holes in our lineup....did you watch the defense this year??? Can you really say that our DB core is great or can win a Superbowl??? Seneca Wallace made us look bad. That in combination with the age of Mike V., Teddy B. and Harrison who all were starters last season and two did not make it through the year. We need an upgrade on defense at SILB, OLB, CB and Saftey all of which can be addressed by trading Cassel and getting draft picks and freeing up cap space. With that additional pick get the best OL available if there is value to protect the face of our Franchise.

 

[DW Toys]

How about safety? Meriweather is the only one signed right now. Sanders is a decent player, but there is no guarantee that he is returning. Harrison is probably done, and who knows about Tank? Even Lewis Sanders is a FA.

So yes, they need a starting quality safety.
They always bring in a bunch of free agents each year, even if some of them are just JAG camp fodder.


Seriously, nearly $30M tied up at the QB position?
They don't have but $18m - $20M tied up in Linbackers for next year, and there are usually four of them on the field at once

Depth at the QB position can also be had in FA.

You are preaching to the choir. An SS is the number one need. How about Nik Harris from OK? 6'3" 233 Lbs and runs a 4.5. Can also play OLB so he would be great in the box like Harrison. He is very good in coverage. He has the lowest body fat of any Sooner player. He is also involved in community work and a great citizen.
DW Toys

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

You are preaching to the choir. An SS is the number one need. How about Nik Harris from OK? 6'3" 233 Lbs and runs a 4.5. Can also play OLB so he would be great in the box like Harrison. He is very good in coverage. He has the lowest body fat of any Sooner player. He is also involved in community work and a great citizen.
DW Toys

I have always really liked Harris especially since the bowl game this year where he had a pick and was a very firery player on the field which reminded me of a young Harrison the way he was leading his defense (which was the most important thing I saw). Some people knock him for his speed so I guess the combine will tell a lot. I originally saw us using a third rounder on him but that was not to popular with most people but I think he is a perfect fit for us as well. I think after the way he played at the senior bowl I bet Tampa Bay would target him in the second as a possible replacement for Derrek Brooks as I see him excelling as a OLB in a 4-3 Tampa two scheme.

 

[DW Toys]

I have always really liked Harris especially since the bowl game this year where he had a pick and was a very firery player on the field which reminded me of a young Harrison the way he was leading his defense (which was the most important thing I saw). Some people knock him for his speed so I guess the combine will tell a lot. I originally saw us using a third rounder on him but that was not to popular with most people but I think he is a perfect fit for us as well. I think after the way he played at the senior bowl I bet Tampa Bay would target him in the second as a possible replacement for Derrek Brooks as I see him excelling as a WLB in a 4-3 Tampa two scheme.

Was timed at 4.5. I see him as a second rounder. He could play SS and a passing down OLB if we go to a 5 DB set. His coverage skills were excellent at the Senior Bowl.
DW Toys

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Was timed at 4.5. I see him as a second rounder. He could play SS and a passing down OLB if we go to a 5 DB set. His coverage skills were excellent at the Senior Bowl.
DW Toys

SOLD!!! I bet Rodney did not run a 4.5 last year (But his experience made up a little speed). I also had Dalmas pegged as a good pick up in the mid rounds but his stock soared up a bit at the senior bowl as well that may move Harris down a bit for us. Unfortunately some other safety's fell but I think the whole thing will depend on if someone reaches to get him as an OLB. A lot of people do not feel the same way about his kid that we do but time will tell.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Kiper's mock first rounder has Tampa taking Josh Freeman of Kansas State at 17. If you're going to do that, you might as well send the pick up here for Cassel. They have a team that is pretty good, not that far off. They need some tinkering of course, but they can do that with their other picks.

I have seen Fereeman play a couple of times and that is a horrible waste of a first round pick.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I have seen Fereeman play a couple of times and that is a horrible waste of a first round pick.

Even picking Stafford is a waste of a First Round pick... But if some team is dopey enough to do so, that moves the Pats up in selecting real players.

There are ZERO legitimate First round QBs in this draft. There are ZERO legitimate 2nd Round
QBs in this draft. There may be a single legitimate 3rd round QB (Stafford), in this draft, IMHO.

As far as Nic Harris is concerned, I predict he will still be waiting to hear his name called as the end of the third round draws near; and a fair chance at the end of the sixth round as well, IMHO.

 

[AzPatsFan]

OK, Please explain this to me

Miguel has the Patriots at Approximately $19Million.

For a fully signed 51 man roster. That is important.

Cassell will be $14.6M.

Re-signing some of their own guys will take several Million

Like who?

Free agency - If they want to get any at all they will need several more Million.

They won't, there's no room on the roster.....

Then the rookie pool will probably be approximately $5M this year, it was $4.3M last year.

So what?

And they always seem to have a couple Million in reserve to sign injury replacements during the season.

Agreed...

So FA and re-signs are about $7M (NO!) and rookies and the reserve another $7M, (NO! then Cassell at 14.6

That would be about $28.6M...............only about $10M over the salary cap. (I don't want you doing my taxes... ).
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The only way Cassell stays here is if he accepts a low-ball one or two year deal to be the backup. Why the heck would he do that when he can go somewhere else, get paid, and be the starter?

Why would he need to take short money?. He might well sign a two-three year guaranteed deal, merely for very good money, to make trading him easier. He might do this, as he isn't really a FA until after 2011, if there is no new CBA. And he is not a dope, and knows that.

Cassell gets traded, and they sign a decent vet FA to be the 2nd or 3rd string guy. Why? Like who?

Taxed

What guys? You mean the FAs after the 2009 season? The only guy to cost money is Mike Wright, the only real FA now, in 2009. His new contract may well SAVE CAP room in the 2009, as it would be mostly SB, and low salary money. But even there, its not going to be all that much.

Re-signing Seymour won't cost anything except SB, and might SAVE CAP Room in 2009, too. Re-Signing Wilfork would cost 2009 money, but he is still signed through 2009, and maybe longer, if there is no new CBA, like Cassel.

Please redo your math. What makes you think they are going to be active in prime-time veteran FA agency with all those draft picks? Why would they? Where would they put them? Putting in 5-6 high draft picks on this team would cost less, than even the 5-6 vet minimum players, they presently have signed, and presumably would be replaced. Costs will go down.

The rookie pool is not in addition to the signed 51 man roster the Pats have; it goes against it; and substitutes for part of it. That is even without some higher priced guys like Tedy or Rodney, or Larry Okie, who may retire, or be asked to do so,and replaced with a low price rook.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re-signing Seymour won't cost anything except SB, and might SAVE CAP Room in 2009, too. Re-Signing Wilfork would cost 2009 money, but he is still signed through 2009, and maybe longer, if there is no new CBA, like Cassel.

New CBA or no, 2009 is Wilfork's sixth year, so he's scheduled to be a UFA next year.

 

[AzPatsFan]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

I love QB depth....and we have it with a 3rd rounder from last year and a guy Gutz who everyone wanted over Cassel going into last season. The problem is the cost to have that QB depth is too high. As pointed out well by Taxed in Maine if we franchise Cassel and keep him that will only leave us room to sign our draft picks. I think that Wright and Sanders needs to be resigned as well as others on the current roster but we would not have the money to do so if we keep MC. Going after a stud FA like Suggs (26y/o) or Asomugha (27/yo) to come in and make an impact on our defense and make it younger. That would also leave us two mid to late first round picks which we could use to get a good offensive (Top Linemen) and defensive player that could come in and make an impact. Bottom line we have an asset in Cassel and he is at the top of is value right now we need to move him to look to the future as well as make our team better.

As far as not having any holes in our lineup....did you watch the defense this year??? Can you really say that our DB core is great or can win a Superbowl??? Seneca Wallace made us look bad. That in combination with the age of Mike V., Teddy B. and Harrison who all were starters last season and two did not make it through the year. We need an upgrade on defense at SILB, OLB, CB and Saftey all of which can be addressed by trading Cassel and getting draft picks and freeing up cap space. With that additional pick get the best OL available if there is value to protect the face of our Franchise.

In answer to your question: Yes this Team and this now very young Defense as constituted, could finish in the Top 6 as a Defense, with merely adding experience, and win a Superbowl, as is. Past weaker Defenses did.

Is there an experienced, veteran of at least average starter-quality player at both S? Answer is YES. I would ALSO expect some to be drafted, and vet min candidates to be signed, too.

After all, They have to figure out what to do with 11 draft picks. It just might be prudent and wise to use at least one on a S.

"Everyone" wanting Gutz, did not include at least two people I know of. Me and a fellow named Bill Belichick!

 

[Synovia]

Sure - the 3rd would be nice - but who is going to trade a few picks FOR the third overall ? Moving down is becoming more difficult every year.

No, its not. Moving down and getting "face value" is difficult. Moving down and getting reasonable value is not.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

What guys? You mean the FAs after the 2009 season? The only guy to cost money is Mike Wright, the only real FA now, in 2009. His new contract may well SAVE CAP room in the 2009, as it would be mostly SB, and low salary money. But even there, its not going to be all that much.

Re-signing Seymour won't cost anything except SB, and might SAVE CAP Room in 2009, too. Re-Signing Wilfork would cost 2009 money, but he is still signed through 2009, and maybe longer, if there is no new CBA, like Cassel.

Please redo your math. What makes you think they are going to be active in prime-time veteran FA agency with all those draft picks? Why would they? Where would they put them? Putting in 5-6 high draft picks on this team would cost less, than even the 5-6 vet minimum players, they presently have signed, and presumably would be replaced. Costs will go down.

The rookie pool is not in addition to the signed 51 man roster the Pats have; it goes against it; and substitutes for part of it. That is even without some higher priced guys like Tedy or Rodney, or Larry Okie, who may retire, or be asked to do so,and replaced with a low price rook.

-First of all I never said 'prime time' FA, I just said Free agency, It does cost money to sign new guys even if they are JAGS

NFL Minimum Salary Levels for the 2009 season
Rookie - $310,000
1 Credited Season - $385,000
2 Credited Seasons - $460,000
3 Credited Seasons - $535,000
4 to 6 Credited Seasons - $620,000 *
7 to 9 Credited Seasons - $745,000 *
10+ Credited Seasons - $845,000 *

Throw in some Signing bonuses and $3.5Million won't get you much.

-The guys I'm talking about that will be free agents in about 1 month
UFA
Matt Cassel, QB
Rosevelt Colvin, LB
Heath Evans, FB
Jabar Gaffney, WR
Chris Hanson, P
Rodney Harrison, SS
Russ Hochstein, G
Larry Izzo, LB
Lamont Jordan, RB
Deltha O'Neal, CB
Lonie Paxton, LS
James Sanders, S
Lewis Sanders, CB
Junior Seau, LB
Kenny Smith, DE
Tank Williams, S
Mike Wright, DT

They have no punter,
They have no Long snapper , (and paxton may be the best one in the NFL)
They have ONE safety

Evans, Gaffney, Hanson, Hochstein, Izzo?, Paxton, at least one of the Sanders, and maybe Wright.

RFA
Eric Alexander, LB
Wesley Britt, T
Pierre Woods, LB

To keep Woods he will probably need a 2nd rd tender of $1.55M

ERFA
Raymond Ventrone, S

$3.5M doesn't even come close to being enough to get back some of the guys we need to fill out the roster with our own guys!

So when I analyze this a little more, the total to get a few FAs and re-sign our own guys will probably be closer to $10M or $12

I didn't even hit on Seymour - Wilfork - Mankins extensions, but if they were to do them it would be additional money. Especially for Wilfork and Mankins.

---I do understand how the rookie pool works, so we'll use your example-
Cassell = 14.6
Rookies = @5

and we are already over the cap,
maybe having only 51 players on the roster will save a little too, and no practice squad those guys never work out any way

I hope your mock draft includes
3 rookie safeties
a rookie LS
a rookie punter

I'm sure BB will be perfectly comfortable with that scenario because he's got two of the best qbs in the league on his team.

Hey maybe Cassell can be our Punter? that will save some cap space.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I doubt that the Pats will trade Matt on the word of a couple of Doctors who say that Brady will be ready to start on Opening Day. So, I find it hard to believe that any deal will get done in time for this year's Draft. I think the Pats will wait until the summer, when the coaches have a chance to watch Tom close up and in some "live" practice. Even then, they might wait until Training Camp or after a couple of Exhibition Games.

 

[Fencer]

I doubt that the Pats will trade Matt on the word of a couple of Doctors who say that Brady will be ready to start on Opening Day. So, I find it hard to believe that any deal will get done in time for this year's Draft. I think the Pats will wait until the summer, when the coaches have a chance to watch Tom close up and in some "live" practice. Even then, they might wait until Training Camp or after a couple of Exhibition Games.

The earlier in the offseason they get him into their system, the more value Cassell has to a team.

 

[farn]

No, its not. Moving down and getting "face value" is difficult. Moving down and getting reasonable value is not.

Good call, I stand corrected. It's quite EASY to move down if you don't care for value. Didn't the Vikings move down two years in a row by just letting time ellapse and a fwe teams drafted ahead of them by running to the table with names ? I guess, I did mean trade down AND get value.

 

[DW Toys]

Even picking Stafford is a waste of a First Round pick... But if some team is dopey enough to do so, that moves the Pats up in selecting real players.

There are ZERO legitimate First round QBs in this draft. There are ZERO legitimate 2nd Round
QBs in this draft. There may be a single legitimate 3rd round QB (Stafford), in this draft, IMHO.

As far as Nic Harris is concerned, I predict he will still be waiting to hear his name called as the end of the third round draws near; and a fair chance at the end of the sixth round as well, IMHO.

I don't know about that. The NFL Draft Scout which is pretty reliable has him in their top 64.
DW Toys

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

In answer to your question: Yes this Team and this now very young Defense as constituted, could finish in the Top 6 as a Defense, with merely adding experience, and win a Superbowl, as is. Past weaker Defenses did.

Is there an experienced, veteran of at least average starter-quality player at both S? Answer is YES. I would ALSO expect some to be drafted, and vet min candidates to be signed, too.

After all, They have to figure out what to do with 11 draft picks. It just might be prudent and wise to use at least one on a S.

"Everyone" wanting Gutz, did not include at least two people I know of. Me and a fellow named Bill Belichick!

I am just not getting though I guess.

We gave up 27 TD's through the air which was second worse in the league to the Cards. Getting quality DB's and a player who will put more pressure on the QB might help...but I guess our D is good enough to win a SB. QB's that faced us this year had a QB rating of 90 and some of the quality QB's we faced were (Huard, O'Sullivan, Bulger Russel and Edwards). What BB will do with the draft picks is make is team better for 2009 by trading up to get someone or getting draft picks in 2010.

I would break down the numbers for you but Taxed in Maine has done an outstanding job of that already and kudo's to him. He has layed out exactly why the numbers do not add up to keep Cassel and do anything in the off season. Keeping Cassel simply handcuffs us and does not make sense in any form. We were calling for his head before last season and now we can get something good out of him.