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No it is NOT. Seymour is far more valuable. He created a good D line, before Wilfork arrived. He is a first ballot HOF member, confirming it when he came all the way back in 2008, from the injuries of 2007.

You never get rid of those type of players. Fortunately, Belichick is not a as un-informed.

I think you are stretching things a mighty bit there. Seymour is a 1st ballot hall of famer? I love Seymour, but I don't think he is..

And, 2002 says that you are wrong about the D-line as well. in the 3-4, NT is the most important position. Followed by the ILBs. Having good DEs is important, but not above those two positions.
 
I think you are stretching things a mighty bit there. Seymour is a 1st ballot hall of famer? I love Seymour, but I don't think he is..

And, 2002 says that you are wrong about the D-line as well. in the 3-4, NT is the most important position. Followed by the ILBs. Having good DEs is important, but not above those two positions.

I think Bill disagrees with you based on his using 1st round picks on Seymour and Warren and only using a first rounder on Mayo (ILB) finally this past year.
 
I think Bill disagrees with you based on his using 1st round picks on Seymour and Warren and only using a first rounder on Mayo (ILB) finally this past year.

No, Bill doesn't disagree with me. And the reason is that they draft by Best VALUE available. Not by need. Not by best player.

But thanks for playing.
 
I think you are stretching things a mighty bit there. Seymour is a 1st ballot hall of famer? I love Seymour, but I don't think he is..

And, 2002 says that you are wrong about the D-line as well. in the 3-4, NT is the most important position. Followed by the ILBs. Having good DEs is important, but not above those two positions.
Extending Sey this year has the value of lowering his 2009 cap hit. Wilfork is cheap this year and at worst can be franchised next year - the urgency to extend him isn't there.

I'd look to extend Sey and Jarvis this year, lowering their cap hit and locking in two key DL while still in their prime. Smitty will be an RFA in 2010, so he's going nowhere. Vince can be extended during the season or wait until 2010 and sign or franchise him. If Wright isn't re-signed there is an opportunity to bring in another mid-round DL, Gilbert or Brace (or both) are my favorites. I expect to see Kenny Smith back in camp - he looked quite good before getting injured. Adams is still around, I suspect those Nebraska kids are nice to work with coming from a two-gap system. I think the Pats have good situation as far as maintaining the DL going forward.
 
I think Bill disagrees with you based on his using 1st round picks on Seymour and Warren and only using a first rounder on Mayo (ILB) finally this past year.

This line of reasoning just doesn't work. If it did, we'd have to conclude that BB really doesn't value the quarterback position. Etc.
 
This line of reasoning just doesn't work. If it did, we'd have to conclude that BB really doesn't value the quarterback position. Etc.

Bill got lucky with Brady. He knew Brady was a keeper and would be his QB. Why keep investing high draft picks when you already have your guy?
 
No, Bill doesn't disagree with me. And the reason is that they draft by Best VALUE available. Not by need. Not by best player.

But thanks for playing.

LOL. Explain that logic to me. Isn't the best player at the time they are picking the best value at that pick?

EDIT: Can't wait for the explanation on this!
 
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Isn't the best player at the time they are picking the best value at that pick?

The best player according to whom? Certainly not the highest consensus ranked player. The Pats selection will be based on the highest ranked player on their own draft board with influencing factors:

Hypothetically, if OLB Clint Sintim and CB D.J. Moore are both on the board at #23, and tied as the Pats top ranked player at their respective positions, the Pats will scan the depth of those two positions, and consider their options later on. For instance, if there isn't a highly valued prospect at OLB in round two or three, but there's a couple of CBs they like, then OLB Sintim would be the pick at #23, and they'd fill the CB need later, in essence filling two needs with quality players rather than one.

Also, need is factored into the Pats ranking system -- it's not separate. If one of the top 15 ranked players happens to slide to #23, but the Pats don't have the position as a priority need, then chances are that top 15 prospect won't be highly ranked on their board.
 
LOL. Explain that logic to me. Isn't the best player at the time they are picking the best value at that pick?

EDIT: Can't wait for the explanation on this!

Condon, I know this is your first season on our draft board...the term "best player available" (BPA) is a standard term in EVERY sport for a drafting philosophy that says "just give me the #1 talent available at my pick, and to heck with 'needs.'" Value is a much more complex equation with many different definitions.

There's been plenty of good discussion here in the past on draft strategy, some of the old threads are really worth reading before you "LOL" at other posters.
 
Condon, I know this is your first season on our draft board...the term "best player available" (BPA) is a standard term in EVERY sport for a drafting philosophy that says "just give me the #1 talent available at my pick, and to heck with 'needs.'" Value is a much more complex equation with many different definitions.

There's been plenty of good discussion here in the past on draft strategy, some of the old threads are really worth reading before you "LOL" at other posters.

Whether if I was a long time poster or a rookie poster in these boards, if you're gonna reply to other posters posts with snide comments, you better be prepared to get some of it back. DaBruinz might be your "friend" and I admire you for sticking up for him, but it's not the first I've seen him posts with some uncalled for remark. Thus my sarcastic response.

Getting back to the point, value and BPA go hand in hand. Let's use some common sense here:

They rank players according to how they project in their system. Let's say when they pick at #23, according to their rankings, the #12 guy they have is still available and the next highest guy left is the #21. Isn't the #12 guy the BPA and reperesent the best value at that pick?

Now, I for one am in the camp that believes the Pats adapt their draft strategy based on the state of it's roster. It's no coincidence that we drafted defense this past year and infused our LBs and CBs core with some young guys. It was also not a coincidence that we drafted Maroney and Jackson high in that draft class seeing that Dillon was at the end of his career and our WR core with the Branch situation was in need of help. To me, those picks were picks of need. At the same time, the Pats have drafted using the BPA mantra with Wilfork, Watson, O'Connell in mind. So my point is, there is not an absolute in what the Pats do in drafts.
 
The best player according to whom? Certainly not the highest consensus ranked player. The Pats selection will be based on the highest ranked player on their own draft board with influencing factors:

Hypothetically, if OLB Clint Sintim and CB D.J. Moore are both on the board at #23, and tied as the Pats top ranked player at their respective positions, the Pats will scan the depth of those two positions, and consider their options later on. For instance, if there isn't a highly valued prospect at OLB in round two or three, but there's a couple of CBs they like, then OLB Sintim would be the pick at #23, and they'd fill the CB need later, in essence filling two needs with quality players rather than one.

Also, need is factored into the Pats ranking system -- it's not separate. If one of the top 15 ranked players happens to slide to #23, but the Pats don't have the position as a priority need, then chances are that top 15 prospect won't be highly ranked on their board.

excellent synopsis....
 
LOL. Explain that logic to me. Isn't the best player at the time they are picking the best value at that pick?

EDIT: Can't wait for the explanation on this!

You clearly haven't been following the Pats drafts at all since Belichick took over. The Best VALUE is a combination of the players physical talents, his intangible assests (leadership, football IQ, etc), and the team need.

When teams draft via best player available they ignore team need. When they draft by need, they take the highest player at that position regardless of round.

Instead of scoffing at others who clearly have more knowledge on the subject (whether it be me or others on here) you may want to open your mind to the facts that others have been following the Patriots much more in depth than you have been so we know a lot about the subjects than the typical fan.
 
Whether if I was a long time poster or a rookie poster in these boards, if you're gonna reply to other posters posts with snide comments, you better be prepared to get some of it back. DaBruinz might be your "friend" and I admire you for sticking up for him, but it's not the first I've seen him posts with some uncalled for remark. Thus my sarcastic response.

None of Patchick's comments were snide It would seem that you are in need of a cranial-rectal inversion. My comments were justified since you continue to make assinine comments yourself. If you didn't, maybe you'd not have people comment.

Getting back to the point, value and BPA go hand in hand. Let's use some common sense here:

They rank players according to how they project in their system. Let's say when they pick at #23, according to their rankings, the #12 guy they have is still available and the next highest guy left is the #21. Isn't the #12 guy the BPA and reperesent the best value at that pick?

No, BPA and value do not go hand in hand. That is someone who is uneducated about the draft talking. Best Player available means that the highest rated player on the teams draft board is taken regardless of need. Drafting by NEED means that the highest rated player at a particular position is taken regardless of whether he's the best talent left on their draft board.

Drafting by VALUE is, as I explained, a combination of the two.

Now, I for one am in the camp that believes the Pats adapt their draft strategy based on the state of it's roster. It's no coincidence that we drafted defense this past year and infused our LBs and CBs core with some young guys. It was also not a coincidence that we drafted Maroney and Jackson high in that draft class seeing that Dillon was at the end of his career and our WR core with the Branch situation was in need of help. To me, those picks were picks of need. At the same time, the Pats have drafted using the BPA mantra with Wilfork, Watson, O'Connell in mind. So my point is, there is not an absolute in what the Pats do in drafts.

You can claim this, but it is pure ignorance on your part and shows you've not read a single article that the Patriots have done on how they do their draft. First and foremost, the Patriots rate their own players after each season. They also rate the players who have made it onto the draft board and all the players in free agency. The ratings are all done the same way. Then the Patriots look to see where they have need and where there is value.

I also don't think that you understand that the Patriots don't use the scouting agencies. They have their own scouts and they don't use the agencies at all. So, when looking at prospects, you can only use a site as a very basic guide as to where players would go.

1) Mayo - Perfect example of best value. Has high tangible and intangible assets and the Patriots had a high need.

2) Wheatley - Another example of best value. Good Tangibles and intangibles. Pats had a high need.

3) Crable - Another example of best value. Good Tangibles. Pats had need

4) O'Connell - Another example of best value. Good tangibles and intangibles. Patriots have need because Cassel is a UFA at the end of the season. Gives them time to start O'Connell's training without any pressure.

5) Maroney - Great example of BVA. Great tangibles. Good intangibles. Patriots have need because, as you said, Dillon was getting old.

6) Jackson - Another example of BVA. Great Tangibles . Some good intangibles, some not. Patriots have need.

7) Wilfrok - The key to the 3-4 is having a good NT. The Pats didn't have one at the time, so there is need. And Wilfork was, by far, the BPA. Hence, he fits the BVA.

8) Watson - The Pats wanted to switch to a 2 TE set as their base offense. They needed another dynamic TE. Watson had the tangibles and seemed to have the intangibles. Patriots had a need.
 
DaBruinz might be your "friend" and I admire you for sticking up for him, but it's not the first I've seen him posts with some uncalled for remark.

Ah, DaBruinz, my BFF. He'll get a kick out of that.

Anyway, I'm just wary about anybody poking sticks into beehives, and your initial post seemed like that. But back to the football talk...

They rank players according to how they project in their system. Let's say when they pick at #23, according to their rankings, the #12 guy they have is still available and the next highest guy left is the #21. Isn't the #12 guy the BPA and reperesent the best value at that pick?

Now, I for one am in the camp that believes the Pats adapt their draft strategy based on the state of it's roster. It's no coincidence that we drafted defense this past year and infused our LBs and CBs core with some young guys. It was also not a coincidence that we drafted Maroney and Jackson high in that draft class seeing that Dillon was at the end of his career and our WR core with the Branch situation was in need of help. To me, those picks were picks of need. At the same time, the Pats have drafted using the BPA mantra with Wilfork, Watson, O'Connell in mind. So my point is, there is not an absolute in what the Pats do in drafts.

I'm big on supply and demand in these equations. There's the "planet theory," that there are only so many men on the planet with the rare body types to excel at certain positions, like 3-4 DE. There's evaluating the competition: who else is likely to target this player before my next pick, or how many other teams are also looking for a center? And there's positional depth within the draft (the #1 reason why, IMO, Mayo had to be the choice over DRC last year). Every pick you make has an opportunity cost.

BTW, Watson is a great example of a BPA-style pick, but NT was a clear need when they picked Wilfork. And a promising young QB to groom was a natural for the shopping list last year, knowing Cassel was headed for FA. (I was surprised at the grumbling over that pick at the very end of the 3rd; O'Connell looked a lot like Flacco as a prospect, seemed like a good need/value combo.)
 
Lets infuse some logic here:

You clearly haven't been following the Pats drafts at all since Belichick took over.

Just because I haven't posted on these boards since it's inception, you assume that I haven't followed the Pats?

The Best VALUE is a combination of the players physical talents, his intangible assests (leadership, football IQ, etc), and the team need .

Every team does this. A lot times teams get their evaluation wrong, but to assume that teams don't do this is illogical. (There's that word again!)

When teams draft via best player available they ignore team need. When they draft by need, they take the highest player at that position regardless of round.

And you know this how? How do you know teams don't include the need of a position in their evaluation and rankings of players?

Instead of scoffing at others who clearly have more knowledge on the subject...
I don't think I questioned your knowledge. I questioned the logic of this post:

No, Bill doesn't disagree with me. And the reason is that they draft by Best VALUE available. Not by need. Not by best player.

(whether it be me or others on here) you may want to open your mind to the facts that others have been following the Patriots much more in depth than you have been so we know a lot about the subjects than the typical fan.

So you think you have more knowledge based on what? Most of the posts here by EVERYBODY are assumptions. Unless one of us is working directly with Bill, Pioli (before he left), or some other personnel team member, we are discussing our assumptions.
 
Lets infuse some logic here:

That's something you haven't proven capable of.

Just because I haven't posted on these boards since it's inception, you assume that I haven't followed the Pats?

Wrong. Your ignorant posts are what show you haven't followed the Pats worth a damn. It has nothing to do with how long you've been on here. And no where did I say it did.


Every team does this. A lot times teams get their evaluation wrong, but to assume that teams don't do this is illogical. (There's that word again!)

Wrong again. Every team does NOT draft by best value available. Many teams do draft by best player available. Or they draft by Need. You'd know this if you actually watched the drafts at all.

And you know this how? How do you know teams don't include the need of a position in their evaluation and rankings of players?

I know this because that is how the term is defined. Again, you are showing your ignorance on the subject.

I don't think I questioned your knowledge. I questioned the logic of this post:

So you think you have more knowledge based on what? Most of the posts here by EVERYBODY are assumptions. Unless one of us is working directly with Bill, Pioli (before he left), or some other personnel team member, we are discussing our assumptions.

I know I have more knowledge than you on this subject just based off how ignorant your posts are. And no, in this case, we aren't discussing our assumptions because BB did an in depth interview on their draft process a few years back explaining how the Patriots were different from other teams in how they set up their draft boards. He explained how the Pats drafted via best value available and explained how many other teams just went on BPA or on Need. He also explained how the Pats were very unique in being only one of 3 or 4 teams that actually had their own full time scouting department and didn't use the scouting services.

So, you have a choice. You can plead your opinions all you want, but they will be the ones scoffed at. Or you can actually listen when people on here talk about things that are common knowledge. Particularly when it comes to how the Patriots draft.
 
That's something you haven't proven capable of.



Wrong. Your ignorant posts are what show you haven't followed the Pats worth a damn. It has nothing to do with how long you've been on here. And no where did I say it did.

Ignorant posts? Let's see, this whole debate started when you assumed that in our defense, the NT followed by the ILBs were the most important positions. I argued that our DEs are more important than ILBs based on the fact that we've spent two first rounders to draft our starters at DE AND we've alocated a greater portion of our salary cap to those positions. That is my reason. I challenge you to give me your reason.

Wrong again. Every team does NOT draft by best value available. Many teams do draft by best player available. Or they draft by Need. You'd know this if you actually watched the drafts at all.

I do not know whether every team drafts are based on value or need. Too many different factors in every single draft for every team to deal with; whether it's the spot they're picking, the players available when they are picking, their team needs, etc. To assume to know such things is to make an ass of yourself, which you obviously don't mind doing.

I know this because that is how the term is defined. Again, you are showing your ignorance on the subject.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

I know I have more knowledge than you on this subject just based off how ignorant your posts are. And no, in this case, we aren't discussing our assumptions because BB did an in depth interview on their draft process a few years back explaining how the Patriots were different from other teams in how they set up their draft boards. He explained how the Pats drafted via best value available and explained how many other teams just went on BPA or on Need. He also explained how the Pats were very unique in being only one of 3 or 4 teams that actually had their own full time scouting department and didn't use the scouting services.
Really? Can you provide me with a link? And how do you know their draft process haven't evolved? Did Bill contact you?

So, you have a choice. You can plead your opinions all you want, but they will be the ones scoffed at. Or you can actually listen when people on here talk about things that are common knowledge. Particularly when it comes to how the Patriots draft.


Okay Mr. "I'm wicked smaaht" draft dude, here's a scenario I'd like for you to answer:

The Pats come up because it is their turn to pick at 23, they look down at their prospect rankings sheet and see that the guy they've ranked at #12 is still available. Do they pick that guy?

(.....wait's anxiously for the response)




EDIT: That snide comment response wasn't directed at Patchick, but clearly that went over your head as well...
 
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Best Player and Best Value because the draft is a crapshoot. They're have been more busts (Jackson, Maroney (to some of us) ) Again the draft is a crapshoot. Look at when the Lions selected Sims and most "draft experts" had him going in the teens.

DB,

Condon makes a great point. None of us know what is going to happen from one draft and that's why it is fun to deliberate which way we are going to go. Telling someone wrong when you have admitted yourself that you don't watch bowl games. That is short-sided.

Defensive Ends are equally important to seal the edge in the 3/4 defense. Before drafting Mayo, BB wanted veterans in the inside. So he took care of the edge with Warren and Seymour and then Wilfork.
 
excellent synopsis....

I completely agree. Seneschal's system is the way I would work the board on Draft Weekend. I only hope that it's the way our FO works the board, too.

An OLB like Sintim vs. a CB like DJ Moore will be a very, very interesting discussion as the weeks progress. Right now, I'm leaning toward Moore because we might have all of AT, Woods, Crable, Redd & the 2 PS OLBs returning, whereas our CB depth sucks.
 
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