Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run???

[mgteich]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Agreed. The BOTTOM LINE is that we were a bit above average against the run last year, and 5th best in the league in points allowed. The Dl may not be as good this year, but improvements at ILB and even at corner and safety should help the run defense.

Rice ran off the early embarassing run, and the team adjusted, allowing under 4 yards per carry (Rice was 4.0 and McGahee was 3.1 other than that first run). That one run did not lose the game, or make the 13th best defense against the run a disaster. The illusion that the patriots just pounded us all game, and that's what lost the season is just that, an illusion.

The patriots were not able to make up for the first play of the game. Our offense (with an injured Brady and Welker out) was simply not up to the task of beating the BALT defense.

they were 13th in run defense last year. i can't see them being worst then that


the pats did not loose the playoff game cause they could not stop the run they lost cause Brady, turned the ball over 4 times that lead to 20 points by the ravens

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Agreed. The BOTTOM LINE is that we were a bit above average against the run last year, and 5th best in the league in points allowed. The Dl may not be as good this year, but improvements at ILB and even at corner and safety should help the run defense.

The Patriots were tied with 3 teams for 20th against the run. That's not "a bit above average". That's basically bottom 3rd of the league.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

The Patriots were tied with 3 teams for 20th against the run. That's not "a bit above average". That's basically bottom 3rd of the league.

I'm assuming you're going by ypc, which is a good stat but can be as misleading as any stat. The Pats had some games where they were leading big early. In those instances, I'm sure they were cheating towards the pass, thus runs would go for a higher average in general.

I still think we were no better than average against the run, which makes sense. 13th in overall rushing allowed and 20th-23rd in ypc, averages to the mid-teens. We were average against the run I would say.

 

[BlueThunder]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Would like to see Brace line up next to Vince on some obvious running downs....add in Gerard Warren on the other side at 6'4 and 330lbs.

That would be alot of beef on the Pats DL ....

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

A classic example of not understanding cause and effect.

"Running games" mean nothing in a track meet with the opponent down 4 TD's. This a QB driven league where you have to keep scoring points. That was the big failure last year not the defense per se. Look around the league and it's astounding how many wins are come from behind.

The problem with the Ravens game was the Pats were down 24-0 basically from turnovers. Give Ray Lewis kudos eventhough it really was a by product losing Welker.

Also, yard TD is depressing. However, one play or drive is not a game.

Actually, I don't think you understood where I was going with that. Teams were able to use the run game to their favor to open up the pass game against us last year. How many times last year were our opponents down 4 TD's? And I wish I had felt the way about the defense last year as you did.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

I'm assuming you're going by ypc, which is a good stat but can be as misleading as any stat. The Pats had some games where they were leading big early. In those instances, I'm sure they were cheating towards the pass, thus runs would go for a higher average in general.

I still think we were no better than average against the run, which makes sense. 13th in overall rushing allowed and 20th-23rd in ypc, averages to the mid-teens. We were average against the run I would say.

Every team can pull up excuses of this nature. The Saints, for example averaged just .1 ypc worse, and they were blowing out teams, too. The Patriots didn't have an inordinate amount of blowout wins last year, so I don't see where this would apply. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Every team can pull up excuses of this nature. The Saints, for example averaged just .1 ypc worse, and they were blowing out teams, too. The Patriots didn't have an inordinate amount of blowout wins last year, so I don't see where this would apply. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

Fair enough. We both seem to agree that there was room for improvement, even with Ty still on the roster.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Actually, I don't think you understood where I was going with that. Teams were able to use the run game to their favor to open up the pass game against us last year. How many times last year were our opponents down 4 TD's? And I wish I had felt the way about the defense last year as you did.

Again, lack of proportion.

4 TD's?

Well, there was the Titans game. You must have heard of it because you posted earlier whining and pizzing that the defense gave up 193 yards on the ground.

How about the home game against the Jets? You know that game because who were also whining about all the yards rushing surrendered in that game.

I know you style yourself as an "expert". Unfortunately, in the pursuit of detail you simply miss the basics and the obvious.

Points matter in wins and losses. 193 yards on the ground winning 59-0 means well.....Ditto the Jets

This is QB driven, passing league. Baltimore has a huge line and a good running game. It has maximum effect when they go up 24-0 on turnovers.

Perhaps it's not applicable on Kon's world, but most fan reality says, "Hey, don't get down 24-0 from turnovers to a good running team."

How do you reconcile the fact that the vaunted "#1" Jets defense surrendered five fourth quarter leads that resulted in losses? What defense last year didn't get "carved up" at some point?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Again, lack of proportion.

4 TD's?

Well, there was the Titans game. You must have heard of it because you posted earlier whining and pizzing that the defense gave up 193 yards on the ground.

That's cool. Now what the hell does it have to do with the run defense being suspect last year?

How about the home game against the Jets? You know that game because who were also whining about all the yards rushing surrendered in that game.

The Pats were never up by four TD's in that game. And, anyway, why does that matter? Again, we're talking about the RUN DEFENSE here. The final score of those games really is not relevant. It's what we allowed opponents to do on the ground that is.

I know you style yourself as an "expert". Unfortunately, in the pursuit of detail you simply miss the basics and the obvious.

No, I really don't. I've been wrong many times before, one of those issues in this thread. However, on your second point, the pot is very much so calling the kettle black.

Me: Look what we allowed opponents to do on the ground.
You: We wuz ahed by 4 TD'z, dis is a qb driven leeg.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with the run defense?

See how this is going? I'm not missing the basics. You, as usual, are. And because you're missing them so horribly, as usual, you're going personal.

Points matter in wins and losses. 193 yards on the ground winning 59-0 means well.....Ditto the Jets

This just shows me that your ability to think clearly has been clearly impeded by some outside factor. Actually, it's the other way around. When the discussion is centered around the run defense, as our's is, the amount of points in the win doesn't really matter for well... Ditto the Jets.

This is QB driven, passing league. Baltimore has a huge line and a good running game. It has maximum effect when they go up 24-0 on turnovers.

Considering our NT was moved out to DE because Baltimore was breaking off gains running to one side of the defensive line, I'd say that the coaching staff saw our run defense, at least to one side, as an issue in that game as well. When we did that, they began pounding the ball inside.

Perhaps it's not applicable on Kon's world, but most fan reality says, "Hey, don't get down 24-0 from turnovers to a good running team."

With all of that said though, I've never put the blame soley on the defensive side of the ball for that loss. There was plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball too. But I guess you're now going to try to tell me that I have and, when asked to present evidence of such, not return to the thread to back up your claim, right? I've seen this one before. By the way, you still haven't shown me where I've ever bashed a Patriots draft. I'm still waiting for the evidence on that one.

How do you reconcile the fact that the vaunted "#1" Jets defense surrendered five fourth quarter leads that resulted in losses? What defense last year didn't get "carved up" at some point?

For one, those leads were surrendered in huge part to Sanchez giving the other team multiple gifts and second chances. I've been over that with many people in the past and the facts are out there to support it. However, again, what does another defense having a bad day have to do with the Pats' 2009 defensive issues and how the coaching staff is going to go about correcting them. Seems like a red herring to me.

Now, if you will so kindly show me where I've panned a Patriots draft before when responding to this as well, I would very much appreciate it. You know, now that I've been graced with the gift of you talking to me and all...

 

[lillestroom]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

I still think Ty Warren last year (even dinged up) is better against the run than anyone we're likely to put at LE this year. The damage can be minimal if G. Warren steps up, or a young player surprises, but I think the best we can do is match what Ty gave us last year. It's a blow for sure..

Indeed. And I can see a number of OCs rubbing their hands at this...

 

[lillestroom]

I'd like to bump this thread in terms of tomorrows game:

Not the worst ground game down south and our 1st team D vs their 1st team O's first qtr drives may reveal a few pointers in terms of where we are:

 

[AzPatsFan]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

I still think Ty Warren last year (even dinged up) is better against the run than anyone we're likely to put at LE this year. The damage can be minimal if G. Warren steps up, or a young player surprises, but I think the best we can do is match what Ty gave us last year. It's a blow for sure.

But you're right about everything else. The LBs and secondary are improved, so if the line play is similar, we should expect better results.

I concur 100%. What's better than 10-6? About 12-4...

 

[JMarr]

Not optimistic about the D at all. With Belichick it all starts with the front line, and that line could really struggle this year. Our run D looks weak on paper. If Mike Wright is in on running downs, we have a problem. Spikes the only bright spot, but he's a rookie.

If our LBs don't take a big step in getting to the QB, we also have a problem in the passing game.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

That's cool. Now what the hell does it have to do with the run defense being suspect last year?



The Pats were never up by four TD's in that game. And, anyway, why does that matter? Again, we're talking about the RUN DEFENSE here. The final score of those games really is not relevant. It's what we allowed opponents to do on the ground that is.



No, I really don't. I've been wrong many times before, one of those issues in this thread. However, on your second point, the pot is very much so calling the kettle black.

Me: Look what we allowed opponents to do on the ground.
You: We wuz ahed by 4 TD'z, dis is a qb driven leeg.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with the run defense?

See how this is going? I'm not missing the basics. You, as usual, are. And because you're missing them so horribly, as usual, you're going personal.



This just shows me that your ability to think clearly has been clearly impeded by some outside factor. Actually, it's the other way around. When the discussion is centered around the run defense, as our's is, the amount of points in the win doesn't really matter for well... Ditto the Jets.



Considering our NT was moved out to DE because Baltimore was breaking off gains running to one side of the defensive line, I'd say that the coaching staff saw our run defense, at least to one side, as an issue in that game as well. When we did that, they began pounding the ball inside.



With all of that said though, I've never put the blame soley on the defensive side of the ball for that loss. There was plenty of blame to go around on the offensive side of the ball too. But I guess you're now going to try to tell me that I have and, when asked to present evidence of such, not return to the thread to back up your claim, right? I've seen this one before. By the way, you still haven't shown me where I've ever bashed a Patriots draft. I'm still waiting for the evidence on that one.



For one, those leads were surrendered in huge part to Sanchez giving the other team multiple gifts and second chances. I've been over that with many people in the past and the facts are out there to support it. However, again, what does another defense having a bad day have to do with the Pats' 2009 defensive issues and how the coaching staff is going to go about correcting them. Seems like a red herring to me.

Now, if you will so kindly show me where I've panned a Patriots draft before when responding to this as well, I would very much appreciate it. You know, now that I've been graced with the gift of you talking to me and all...

Expertly, can't see the forest for the trees.

Yeah, they were not up by 4 TD's against the Jets, just THREE SCORES.

What you can't or will not grasp is 13th in the run is a compilation of 16 pieces of situational football.

193 yards against TN? Yeah, we won 59-0 so the yards mean nothing other than to give them a higher YPG surrendered to make "experts" post on boards with well.....

You simply can't recognize this fact because you seem to be set to believe points have zero bearing on the outcome of a game.

How was the game against Carolina? great running game? What's more important yards or 10 points and a win?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Expertly, can't see the forest for the trees.

Actually, I'm having a fine job of doing that. It's you who can't seem to understand that the final score of the game isn't and shouldn't be connected to a debate about the run defense. That should be settled by talking about yards yielded on the ground during those games. In this case, I've presented plenty of evidence supporting my point: that the run defense wasn't up to snuff last year.

Yeah, they were not up by 4 TD's against the Jets, just THREE SCORES.

And, once again, what the hell does that have to do with a discussion about the run defense?

What you can't or will not grasp is 13th in the run is a compilation of 16 pieces of situational football.

13th against the run pretty much agrees with my point that this was a pretty pedestrian defense in that area of the game last season.

193 yards against TN? Yeah, we won 59-0 so the yards mean nothing other than to give them a higher YPG surrendered to make "experts" post on boards with well.....

We won by bombing on their defense through the air. Once again, the final score doesn't change the fact that we yielded big time yards on the ground in that game.

You simply can't recognize this fact because you seem to be set to believe points have zero bearing on the outcome of a game.

Actually, I do. I'm pretty sure games aren't settled in yards and if you want to talk about how the team fared against it's schedule as a whole last year (a discussion in which points scored are relevant), than I'll be more than willing to discuss that in another thread.

How was the game against Carolina? great running game? What's more important yards or 10 points and a win?

In this discussion, which is about the run defense of 2009 by the way, the yards they yielded on the ground are more important.

Now, when you respond to me, try as hard as you can to grasp that fact. Also, I'm still waiting for the proof of me ever bashing a Pats draft.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

Actually, I'm having a fine job of doing that. It's you who can't seem to understand that the final score of the game isn't and shouldn't be connected to a debate about the run defense. That should be settled by talking about yards yielded on the ground during those games. In this case, I've presented plenty of evidence supporting my point: that the run defense wasn't up to snuff last year.



And, once again, what the hell does that have to do with a discussion about the run defense?



13th against the run pretty much agrees with my point that this was a pretty pedestrian defense in that area of the game last season.



We won by bombing on their defense through the air. Once again, the final score doesn't change the fact that we yielded big time yards on the ground in that game.



Actually, I do. I'm pretty sure games aren't settled in yards and if you want to talk about how the team fared against it's schedule as a whole last year (a discussion in which points scored are relevant), than I'll be more than willing to discuss that in another thread.



In this discussion, which is about the run defense of 2009 by the way, the yards they yielded on the ground are more important.

Now, when you respond to me, try as hard as you can to grasp that fact. Also, I'm still waiting for the proof of me ever bashing a Pats draft.

You remind me of the fans here in "the burgh" who in 2007, tried to argue that based on the yards and TOP they racked up against the Pats; they were the better team ans should have won.

Never once could they grasp that the reason they got so many yards was they were "allowed" based on the fact that gaining yards ensured a loss by 3 TD's.

Does 193 yards against Tennessee bother a rationale fan?

Well, no because we won 59-0. Ever heard of prevent defenses? Playing reserve personnel?

And no, yards yielded are not the most important, yards allowed in situations is what's important.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Not optimistic about the D at all. With Belichick it all starts with the front line, and that line could really struggle this year. Our run D looks weak on paper. If Mike Wright is in on running downs, we have a problem. Spikes the only bright spot, but he's a rookie.

If our LBs don't take a big step in getting to the QB, we also have a problem in the passing game.

Here is a principle from business. It is frequently expressed in the witticism: You don't have to be able to outrun the Bear. You only have to out run your companion.

The Pats Run Defense is not bad, but it was mediocre last year. No matter whether Ty Warren is here or not, Ty was dinged and Seymours leaving was unanticipated as was Greene's injury. The run Defense is better than last year. And last year was a 10-6 season.

You don't have to be good, all you have to be is better than the opposition. The Pats are.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

You remind me of the fans here in "the burgh" who in 2007, tried to argue that based on the yards and TOP they racked up against the Pats; they were the better team ans should have won.

That's got to be the dumbest assertion I've ever heard. Tell me, pfip, what's your basis for judging the run defense based on the point total our offense racked up in a win?

Never once could they grasp that the reason they got so many yards was they were "allowed" based on the fact that gaining yards ensured a loss by 3 TD's.

So you think the defense just allowed their opponents to chew them up in the run game? I think I just changed my mind on the last sentence. THIS has to be the most ridiculous assertion I've ever heard.

Does 193 yards against Tennessee bother a rationale fan?

When you're looking at the run defense, it should.

Well, no because we won 59-0.

Irrelevant.

Ever heard of prevent defenses? Playing reserve personnel?

Yes I have. Were we playing prevent and putting in reserve personnel the entire season? Is that what happened to the run defense? On top of that, Chris Johnson gained 128 yards on 17 carries. That happened against the first string defense being that Tennessee wasn't running all that often (when they actually had the ball) after the half.

 

[lillestroom]

And the Hot-lanta game showed us.....

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Why the optimism? Come season time can we stop the run ???

On top of that, Chris Johnson gained 128 yards on 17 carries. That happened against the first string defense being that Tennessee wasn't running all that often (when they actually had the ball) after the half.

You can have your own opinions. You can't have your own facts.

1st Half
======
Johnson's runs (1,0,2,5,31,1,10,0,2,8)
Johnson 10 for 60
Titans 18 for 74
Score 45-0

2nd Half
======
Johnson's runs (0,48,8,3,3,1,5)
Johnson 7 for 68
Titans 18 for 119
Score 14-0

So a quick check of your "facts"...

"Chris Johnson gained 128 yards on 17 carries" - True

"That happened against the first string defense" - Misleading, 76 of his yards (60%) came after the score was 35-0. By that time, subs were liberally being used.

"Tennessee wasn't running all that often after the half" - False, they ran just as much after the half and gained 62% of their rushing yards in the 2nd half.

If your "facts" are that far off, you might want to reevaluate your "opinions".